Rail-based Transit Discussion

[xanaxanax]

I would probably take it to Bedford once in a while for fun but who from Halifax would ever take it to Windsor Junction, I guess if it stopped near some camp grounds, trails, parks, a swimming hole it might boost some ridership from out of the city

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Hali87

I had the chance to see Bob Bjerke (Halifax's new chief planner) give a presentation and Q&A the other day - he seems very open to new ideas and I'm optimistic that he would explore the option of LRT or something similar. It would be nice to have some discussion around the idea of rail-based transit (or true BRT) other than beating the dead horse that is the Windsor Junction to Hollis commuter line.

That is great news.

There has been a lack of fresh ideas and leadership when it comes to transportation planning in Halifax. With commuter rail, there was never much public discussion to lay out the alternatives and get people thinking about what kind of solutions might be best. Commuter rail is basically an ad hoc project that some people are pushing for because they feel it's the only alternative to the status quo.

A lot has changed since people started talking about the commuter rail project. There are a lot more transit options and there's more variety in terms of transit systems implemented in smaller cities. Halifax has changed; there's more potential for urban infill now than there was in the past, and fewer people are buying detached homes in areas like Fall River. The price of diesel has gone up too. It's not clear that running heavy rail with refurbished cars is a truly "discount" option, even though it might sound like one. It might actually be a worst-of-both-worlds type scenario where the city pays more for inferior service. Unless the commuter rail study does a good job of evaluating alternative transit options we won't know.

Halifax needs an "HRM by Design" of transportation that includes a discussion on the role of cars, commercial vehicles, transit, the impact on land use, etc. Ideally it should not just clearly lay out transit alternatives but also try to move the city past oversimplified thinking around roadway and bridge construction. The "cars vs. people" polarization is very similar to the "developers vs. heritage" dynamic that was much stronger in the urban core before HbD was put into place.

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by xanaxanax

I would probably take it to Bedford once in a while for fun but who from Halifax would ever take it to Windsor Junction, I guess if it stopped near some camp grounds, trails, parks, a swimming hole it might boost some ridership from out of the city

The primary goal is to get people into the city who work downtown and get them to leave their cars at home, not so people downtown can go on camping holidays...

[teddifax]

I have always wondered what our population in Halifax would be if the Halifax Explosion hadn't happened. I believe it must have had a profound effect on it.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by teddifax

I have always wondered what our population in Halifax would be if the Halifax Explosion hadn't happened. I believe it must have had a profound effect on it.

I think so also. (this might be a bit off-topic)

Referring to the table below, as a conservative assumption let's assume that the 1921 population increase would have been 25% without the explosion, instead of the actual 21.1% which was lowered by the direct loss of life and fewer children born because of the large number of injuries.

It is difficult to predict how long it took for the city to completely recover but looking at the population increase by decade, Halifax county had a 3.1% increase between 1921 - 1931 even though this was a prosperous decade in North America (in spite of the 1929 stock market crash) and such a stagnation of population was not seen in the rest of Canada - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populat...Canada_by_year. The decades from 1911 to 1961 saw a dramatic jump in population for Halifax County in spite of the 1917 explosion. Halifax, by today's standards, was a booming city (no pun intended).

As an assumption, if the explosion did not occur, I think that the population increase in 1921 would have been about 25% (a few percent higher than actual) and the 1931 population increase might have been close to 30%. Considering theses assumptions, the current population of HRM would be at least 30% higher and HRM would be approaching 550,000 by now (about 3 - 4% higher in 1921, and about 27% higher in 1931). I believe the effect of the explosion on the Halifax area population was just as significant as the effect of Katrina on the New Orleans population.

Historical population of Halifax County/HRM (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halifax...y#cite_note-26 )
Year Population ±%
1851 39,914 —
1861 49,021 +22.8%
1871 56,963 +16.2%
1881 67,917 +19.2%
1891 71,358 +5.1%
1901 74,662 +4.6%
1911 80,257 +7.5%
1921 97,228 +21.1%
1931 100,204 +3.1%
1941 122,656 +22.4%
1951 162,217 +32.3%
1961 225,723 +39.1%
1971 261,461 +15.8%
1981 288,126 +10.2%
1991 332,518 +15.4%
2001 359,111 +8.0%
2011 390,096 +8.6%

[teddifax]

thank you!

[xanaxanax]

Halifax was also the top 3 contenders to be the capital of Canada but the Queen picked Ottawa because she liked the name the most

[halifaxboyns]

My primary issue with this latest report is that we seem to have skipped a few crucial steps, which are make or break. First, is CN on board - and if so, why are they not at the table? Second - if they are not, what is plan B? Thirdly - what kind of system are we trying to build? Are we going cheap and just doing a rush hour commuter service or are we really thinking about trying to build a viable daily system?

As people have pointed out, the ROW along the waterfront is no longer consistent, so that route (which Alan Ruffman clings too) is no longer viable. But not withstanding all of that - it doesn't matter if CN isn't even on board. We can debate, argue and talk about how great it would be - but we cannot force CN to let HRM use the tracks. So - if they aren't at the table the whole thing is a waste.

If CN isn't going to be at the table - then 'plan b' is HRM goes it alone - meaning designing a system from the ground up that achieves different goals (likely a full LRT type system along the lines of Edmonton, Calgary or Vancouver). Considering the protracted legal issues between CN and HRM; I would not be surprised if they don't come to the table and so HRM needs to be prepare for going it alone and how it's going to handle that.

[Hali87]

Historically, there has been no plan B. It's always been either CN is completely on board with the idea of a limited, peak hour commuter train-dayliner, or nothing. LRT is never really discussed beyond "of course we're not talking about LRT" or "this is something that may be necessary in 10 years".

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Historically, there has been no plan B. It's always been either CN is completely on board with the idea of a limited, peak hour commuter train-dayliner, or nothing. LRT is never really discussed beyond "of course we're not talking about LRT" or "this is something that may be necessary in 10 years".

This is the kind of thinking the new chief planner (I'm hoping) will steer Halifax away from - the 'this is the only possible solution for issue 'x'' - because there are many solutions. We've talked about a lot of options - it just all comes down to how much $ you are willing to put into it and the purpose you are trying to get from it.

Personally; I'd want to encourage large scale redevelopment of whole sections of the city - so for me; putting a lot of money into building a regional LRT is the best way to go. Yes, it's a lot of money but the benefits last for years and we move towards the goals of the regional plan (more developed area growth versus greenfield). Granted I'm preaching to the converted here...

[Hali87]

I dunno. I'm not too warm to the idea of "large-scale redevelopment of whole sections of the city" unless you mean things like Kempt Road or massive parking lots. I'm much rather see more organic infill than a whole bunch of New-Cogswells where there are already functional neighbourhoods.

[19200]

"but we cannot force CN to let HRM use the tracks"

Yes we can. I believe it's not an option, it's federally regulated and allowed. VIA, GO and AMT use others infrastructor, CN and CP would be tickled pink if they didn't, but they don't have the choice.

Do we have a well versed member of the bar here that can confirm or deny this?

I had reason to be getting out the Beaverbank Rd at 5pm on a Friday a few weeks ago...... Wow has that ever gotten bad. Then we come to the WHRC line, sitting idle.......

Commuter rail needs to happen, and it needs to happen 5 years ago.

We can run used RDC's on Class 1 trackage for now, but we have to do something. We are loosing ground to other cities when people spend 30-60min in a commute, with no viable option.

Start small if we need to. With the new Woodside service, run the Dartmouth Sub back to Bisset Rd to a park and ride. When that prooves itself, then move to the other lines.

If CN tries to stall and claim interference, then run your own trackage next to theirs, on the same right of way.

Enough talking and speculating. We have standing room only transit at rush hour in the city, and very few options. Lets get it done.

[hfx_chris]

The problem is once the tracks are gone it would be pretty damned near impossible to get them back. You mentioned extending the Dartmouth sub back to Cole Harbour, but don't forget all of those former rail beds have been taken over and are now some really nice multi-use trails (and I say that from experience, I regularly bike the Shearwater Flyer and Salt Marsh trails) with a huge amount of community backing. Could you imagine saying sorry, we're taking this trail back, the public backlash would be immense.

As for the WHR tracks, they're in pretty bad shape and would pretty much need to be completely replaced. If you want to start a service without breaking the bank it needs to be run on existing tracks, so along the Bedford Sub out towards wherever, Truro or Stewiacke or something.


Also...

Originally Posted by 19200

Do we have a well versed member of the bar here that can confirm or deny this?

If it helps, I can go to a bar...

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by 19200

"but we cannot force CN to let HRM use the tracks"

Yes we can. I believe it's not an option, it's federally regulated and allowed. VIA, GO and AMT use others infrastructor, CN and CP would be tickled pink if they didn't, but they don't have the choice.

...


If CN tries to stall and claim interference, then run your own trackage next to theirs, on the same right of way.

I'm pretty sure CN and CP are still both private companies. VIA/GO rent trackage from them (I think). I'm pretty sure they also own the right of way so you'd still need their permission to build new rails on it (or buy it from them).

[MalcolmTucker]

GO has bought some corridors, but not all of it. Page 6 http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf..._Update_EN.pdf

The railroads are common carriers, but that doesn't mean anyone can run trains on them. They are required to haul any cars people want hauled.

A transit service with second call on a rail line isn't much of a transit service at all. Usually rail lines are fine with leasing capacity or twinning lines in their corridors as long as the partner agency covers all costs. The provincial or municipal governments are not in a strong negotiating position to extract concessions on access.

[Hali87]

Commuter Rail Feasibility Study Open House
Thursday, February 26th, 2015
5:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m.
Sunnyside Mall (near Shoppers Drug Mart)
1595 Bedford Highway, Bedford

http://www.halifax.ca/transit/commuterrail.php

[19200]

So, who all made it to the open house?

[Hali87]

It would be nice if the NS government would start thinking like this:

Hamilton to get a new LRT and GO Train station

HAMILTON—The city of Hamilton will get up to $1 billion from the Ontario government for a Light Rail Transit line from McMaster University to Queenston Circle in the city’s east end.

...

The provincial government will provide 100 per cent of the capital costs of building the new LRT, which Wynne says will reduce travel times and connect people to other transit systems.

“This is monumental for Hamilton,” said Hamilton Mayor Fred Eisenberger, who called light rail transit a “sensible, affordable transportation system that lifts our entire community.”

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by 19200

So, who all made it to the open house?

I was there but there didn't seem to be anything more than a series of poster boards showing the same information that can be found on the website so I didn't stay more than a few minutes.

[Hali87]

I was also there, it was well-attended (actually kind of too crowded) and people seemed excited. There was a good demographic cross-section there.