Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylmer
I would caution to not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. What I understand from your post is that you don't want LRT because it will push the need for a full metro line back a few years or decades. That may very well be the case, but I don't know if a metro is worth the decades of poor service, especially in a small centre like KWC where such a line likely won't be justifiable for 50 years at least.
I'd invite you to see it this way; the intermediary step of LRT can help put in place the necessary conditions for a metro. A LRT-less KWC wouldn't develop the same way that it will with LRT; Without some form of higher-capacity transit, residents, offices and destinations would have to be more spread out with wider roads and more parking to sustain them. In that context, a metro would be a poor choice since there wouldn't be a concentrated spine of activity and density for it to run along. So if come 2070, a LRT-less KWC looks like Brampton, then you're no closer (and may actually be further) from a true metro than if you had gone with LRT.
An analogy might be to say that children shouldn't go to high school because the improvement in what they know will push the need for a university degree back a few years. That may be true, but it's only with the knowledge acquired during high school that you'll be able to get to university at all.
It's rare for a city to go from nothing to metro in a single leap because the concentration and density necessary for a metro often requires some intermediary technology which can put the right conditions in place. Even in places which built them after taking down their streetcar networks (Montreal, DC, Vancouver, etc.), the urban form which allowed for their metros were only made possible by those very same streetcar networks. So if you want more metro lines, the best thing you can do today in small towns is to advocate for that intermediary step, no matter what it is.
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As the next poster after you said it, LRT is not a step to metros. If it was just the next step with metro to come 20 years later after you say, I'd be more open. But that's not what happens. Politicians see that "rapid transit" exists along the corridor, and then it's done. Has there ever been a case where an LRT line is converted to become fully grade separated?
Meanwhile, speed isn't improved, which is far more important in shifting mode share from cars to transit than the sex appeal of the transit vehicle. That's why I'm willing to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. LRT's not even good. It goes the same speed as a bus, except it's on rails. Whoop dee doo.
I know, I know, capacity. But Broadway in Vancouver carries over 80,000 people a day on buses alone. LRT may have more capacity, but it seems to me that buses can handle it alright as well. And this is of course far from ideal, and it runs into problems. But that means it needs to get SkyTrain along it already. It's no question that it could support it.
I also disagree that an area has to have some sort of rail transit first before it becomes urban enough for a metro. There are plenty of other ways to go about it. And again, say LRT does spur development and becomes overcrowded. I don't see it being upgraded to actual rapid transit after that.
I just think people aren't patient enough. Buses are capable of far more than people think. I know we all want to get our city in the big leagues with a rail-transit line, but is that really more important than comprehensively improving overall transit service? That's a value judgment. I know for some people, it is. But for me, it's not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hipster duck
I am quite supportive of the first phase of the KW-LRT, even if I'm not that supportive of LRTs in general.
As the report that Malcolm Tucker posted reveals, the travel time will be about the same as the current limited stop bus service (the iXpress). However, I think that the point of the LRT is to establish a transit culture - or, maybe more properly, an alternative-to-car culture - in what we might describe as an "emerging" transit market.
Kitchener's major trip generators are all along one route, which is short enough to make travel times not a huge factor, but long enough that you need some form of rapid transit. These trip generators are also pretty major, even by big city standards. The urban built form along this route can be quite urban and dense, too, while most of the roads along which this route will travel are quite narrow and restrictive. The route already runs as a limited stop bus service with 10 minute frequencies, and I think there is potential for bus congestion if they doubled their level of service - particularly through the old cores of Kitchener and Waterloo where a bus ROW is not really feasible. I don't think a BRT is the way to go, and obviously grade separated metro - even light metro - is total overkill.
Now, I don't think an LRT is the way to go for the expansion to Cambridge, either.
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As I said before, I don't think establishing a transit culture is that much of an issue in Canada as it is in the US. It comes about naturally. I believe that if you keep making meaningful improvements to bus service, the ridership will come. I see no reason in spending a huge sum of money that brings no tangible improvement to the transit experience. Especially considering that in countless examples across the US, putting in rail lines hardly increases ridership; it mostly just shifts existing bus ridership to it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jigglysquishy
There's a segment of the population that views the bus as beneath them, but have no problems taking a train.
I wish that segment was 1%, but I think it's closer to 50% of the population.
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I don't care about those people. $1 billion is much better spent on improving the freedom of existing transit customers through general service improvements rather than building a token rail line for people that think they're too good for the bus to maybe consider taking it some time. In time, things will progress to the point that a metro is needed, and then those people can have their rail line.
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