The United States of Europe

[pricemazda]

Originally Posted by Metropolitan

Indeed, I totally agree with you.

European countries could offer themselves to declare war to each others at a time when the rest of the world was irrelevant. This has stopped 60 years ago when Russia and the US have proven to be much more powerful than any country in Western Europe, if not Western Europe as a whole.

It's not peace which is at the origin of the European unification, it is actually war. World War 2 made realize to Europeans that in fighting against each other they were mutually weakening themselves.

In the globalized world of the 21st century, which will see many superpowers rising, European countries can only defend better themrselves in getting closer to each other. Saying that our little independent country representing less than 1% of humanity could do as good if not better than with the EU is nothing else than wishful thinking.

That is my basic starting point for the EU metropolitan. There isn't much we agree on but on the EU it seems we do.

The world is changing fast and if we want any influence or control over our own economic affairs we need to work together otherwise either we will become vassal states or just ignored.

This is the basic view of the left, that we can achieve more together than we can apart.

[JManc]

question to the EU fans: why? why are you guys so enthusiastic about consolidating europe?

[pricemazda]

because we can achieve more together than we can apart.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by pricemazda

because we can achieve more together than we can apart.

like what? you guys do fine as seperate countries working together.

besides, don't you realize that i would have to buy a new globe? i don't want to buy a new globe. i like the one i have.

[Swede]

^Technically, the EU is already a confederacy if you look at how laws/directives are made. The only part that people really see in their daily lives tho is the €. So we're not, IMO, seperate countries working together anymore! The only thing left to integrate is foreign policy and militaries, if that were done everyone would consider the EU the country (and the member states more like the US states).
/IMO the best route for the EU would be moving power from the Council of Ministers to the Parliament and have the Comission be appointed by the Parliament instead of the National goverments (oh noes! then we'd be federal instead of confederal! what do you mean this'd adress the democracy defecit we're always blasting the EU for???).

Do keep the globe. I love old, obviously erroneous globes. Like the one somewhere around the appartment here - Soviet Union and all

[The Dear Leader]

Originally Posted by Metropolitan

Saying that our little independent country representing less than 1% of humanity could do as good if not better than with the EU is nothing else than wishful thinking.

Most people aren't concerned about international representation though. They're concerned about issues right at home and they sometimes feel that Brussels is out of touch with the average citizen. Which is no surprise since the EU has to take the views of 25 member states into account. I don't feel like I'm properly represented in Brussels either since I don't even have an MEP.

[downtown_meltdown]

Originally Posted by Swede

^Technically, the EU is already a confederacy if you look at how laws/directives are made. [...]

Technically Sweden is a monarchy. Or am I wrong here?

[Swede]

It is indeed. A constitutional monarchy. The King has no power at all, and the constitution begins "All offentlig makt i Sverige utgår från folket", quickee translation: "All public power in Sweden comes from the people".
The title of the head of state is irrelevent to the issue of the EU's status of federal/confederal/international polity.

[pricemazda]

Originally Posted by jmancuso

like what? you guys do fine as seperate countries working together.

besides, don't you realize that i would have to buy a new globe? i don't want to buy a new globe. i like the one i have.

Like a common immigration policy, a common foreign policy, a common european voice in foreign affairs would have a much greater impact if we worked together.

Organised crime, immigration, pollution, trade policy, fisheries are all things that benefit from collective action.

[downtown_meltdown]

Originally Posted by Swede

[...] The King has no power at all, and the constitution begins "All offentlig makt i Sverige utgår från folket", quickee translation: "All public power in Sweden comes from the people".
[...]

And by "the people" they mean the citizens of Sweden, and not, for example, citizens of Poland, do they not?

[downtown_meltdown]

Originally Posted by pricemazda

Organised crime, immigration, pollution, trade policy, fisheries are all things that benefit from collective action.

Now, I couldn't agree with this more

[pricemazda]

well done! You should be very proud of yourself for noticing a typing error.

[downtown_meltdown]

Originally Posted by pricemazda

well done! You should be very proud of yourself for noticing a typing error.

Actually I didn't realize I noticed a typing error, but even if I did, I wouldn't point it out, since I make many myself. So indulge me and tell me what the error is.

[pricemazda]

I just phrased it incorrectly, get over it already, you know full well the point i was making.

[Metropolitan]

Originally Posted by The Dear Leader

Most people aren't concerned about international representation though. They're concerned about issues right at home and they sometimes feel that Brussels is out of touch with the average citizen. Which is no surprise since the EU has to take the views of 25 member states into account. I don't feel like I'm properly represented in Brussels either since I don't even have an MEP.

And how do you solve issues "right at home" such as unemployment and things alike ?

Just imagine discussions at the WTO if Europe wasn't represented as a whole. European countries would be forced to join coalitions in order to get heard. Even Germany. And in the end, you would see in those coalitions European countries against each others. Just like it is currently the case for defence policies, you would see the exact same thing on economical issues.

Now tell me where our interests are better represented ? At the WTO, where we are united, or at the UN security council, while despite having two permanent members, the only thing we can do is accept or oppose what other countries proposes.

Okay, defence policies are irrelevant to our problems right at home, but this is certainly not the case of economical policies. Just imagine how it would be if our economical interests were defended the same way as our defence interests and you will probably understand how this has an influence right at home. Without Europe, we wouldn't have any other influence at the WTO than to accept or oppose what the United States or China would propose.

[The Dear Leader]

Originally Posted by Metropolitan

And how do you solve issues "right at home" such as unemployment and things alike ?

By having decent labor market policies. I'm not against some sort of cooperation on a European level, I'm just against any sort of political union. European cooperation is beneficial but only to a certain extent IMO and we've probably reached this level. A few minor adjustments here and there are needed but that's about it.

[pricemazda]

I have said this before the union won't happen in a magical treaty in which overnight our nation states will become federal states.

So being against it, or worrying it is going to happen is futile. The union will evolve as and when the need arises, but one day probably not in our lifetime we will have in effect a federal europe

[The Dear Leader]

Originally Posted by pricemazda

So being against it, or worrying it is going to happen is futile.

How exactly is it futile? If enough people are opposed to it, politicians will (or at should) listen to them.

[pricemazda]

you misunderstand what I said, it is futile worrying that a federal EU superstate will happen in a penstroke, as that is not the way it will happen.

[downtown_meltdown]

Originally Posted by pricemazda

[...]
So being against it, or worrying it is going to happen is futile. [...]

Borg?