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  #1961  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2015, 12:44 AM
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Streetcars are a non-starter in Vancouver. For one, they're an entirely different technology, which means that we have to have a separate operations facility (a garage, essentially - which would have to be built on prime, urban land along the streetcar route), and a separate crew of trained staff to operate, fix and maintain the streetcars and the tracks/wiring.

Secondly, they offer a marginal capacity boost to a bus, with virtually no speed increases, and they also combine the construction uncertainties of rapid transit (phased construction over several years, utility separations, etc.) with the street-level immediate inconveniences of a separated bike lane (e.g. fighting with locals about lane removals, parking removal, etc.).

It's pretty much lose-lose.
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  #1962  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2015, 2:56 AM
red-paladin red-paladin is offline
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Another issue with the streetcar proposal is that the OMC was going to be in the city owned parking lot under the viaducts between Main and Quebec. That's going to be gone of course if Vision has their way.
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  #1963  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2015, 4:25 AM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is online now
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There's plenty of room on the south side of False Creek around the Cambie bridge.
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  #1964  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2015, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by GlassCity View Post
If the buses are really that packed (I now realise I've never actually taken a bus downtown), then I'd rather see that money go to a downtown subway. I know that that doesn't do anything for your easy on-off service, but I think it would free up enough capacity on the buses that they could be used for that purpose instead.

I just don't want us spending that much money just because people think it's smoother and prettier. I truly believe that transit's only limitation is speed. And if a transit service is faster than a car, people will take it, even if it's a bus. So I'd rather we focus on speeding up service, rather than converting bus routes to streetcars because they're just nicer.
I really hate urban design interfering with transit. Yes I never take a bus downtown, because once I get off the Skytrain at Grandville, Burrad or Waterfront, everything I want to get to can be walked to without waiting for a bus. The entire downtown peninsula, if you draw a triangle from yaletown station to the stadium station to the waterfront is "walkable within reason", if you want to go West of Burrard, maybe it's a bit of a hike on foot.

I know this isn't reasonable sounding, but the only way you can get street-car support is by eliminating the car traffic itself, which is why we had streetcars originally. There simply were no cars.

We have proof of what the Vancouver Streetcar was like before it turned into the trolley-bus.
Video Link

Note the two or three horse draw carriages at the beginning are slower than the streetcar. The later ones actually get out of the way. But then you have people constantly running in front of it and even animals cutting it close.

There's quite honestly no benefit to a streetcar that the trolleybus doesn't already serve, and the trolley lines still go down the original trolley routes with their original numbers.
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  #1965  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2015, 2:44 AM
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BCPHIL,

Great post. Everything I was going to respond to more.
The only point I would add is build the service now to drive growth and not wait to respond to it. That said, the city may be delaying for more than just the current focus of the Broadway rapid transit plan. As they have been building along the ROW, the developers have used the curb lane for staging and the median as the detour lane. This would conflict with the construction of the line ando could even damage the line. Think of the development between Ontario and Quebec, the number of trucks and heavy equipment that would have to cross the track would be huge. I would still work with the developers on timing. Start planning now and be ready to build then.

Anyway, I would love to buy you a beer and discuss some of my other suggestions to make this happen.
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  #1966  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2015, 10:11 PM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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Although nothing is happening on this, the streetcar RoW marked on the 89 Nelson documents
show the RoW crossing from the north side of Pacific Blvd to the south side to serve the Plaza of Nations.


http://former.vancouver.ca/commsvcs/.../contextpl.pdf
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  #1967  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2016, 11:37 PM
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Forgot to post this earlier, but the historic Interurban car that used to run on the Downtown Historic Railway to Granville Island has been donated by its Seattle owner to the Fraser Valley Heritage Railway.

http://www.news1130.com/2016/01/28/p...in-cloverdale/

It made the trip last week and is now reunited with car 1225.

So this will be a sight once again.


Source: http://fvhrs.org/history/

I find it shocking how the FVHR is a growing tourist success out in the suburbs with full support from the city of Surrey, while the DHR couldn't scrounge up any support in Vancouver in the middle of tourist central, linking one of the provinces biggest tourist traps with public transit. Go figure.
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  #1968  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2016, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by BCPhil View Post
I find it shocking how the FVHR is a growing tourist success out in the suburbs with full support from the city of Surrey, while the DHR couldn't scrounge up any support in Vancouver in the middle of tourist central, linking one of the provinces biggest tourist traps with public transit. Go figure.
I get the sense that the City of Vancouver got its nips in a twist about this train, likely because it was viewed as an impediment for the City's own streetcar plans (which are hopefully rotting away in a server somewhere).
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  #1969  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2016, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Kisai View Post
I really hate urban design interfering with transit. Yes I never take a bus downtown, because once I get off the Skytrain at Grandville, Burrad or Waterfront, everything I want to get to can be walked to without waiting for a bus. The entire downtown peninsula, if you draw a triangle from yaletown station to the stadium station to the waterfront is "walkable within reason", if you want to go West of Burrard, maybe it's a bit of a hike on foot.

I know this isn't reasonable sounding, but the only way you can get street-car support is by eliminating the car traffic itself, which is why we had streetcars originally. There simply were no cars.

We have proof of what the Vancouver Streetcar was like before it turned into the trolley-bus.
Video Link

Note the two or three horse draw carriages at the beginning are slower than the streetcar. The later ones actually get out of the way. But then you have people constantly running in front of it and even animals cutting it close.

There's quite honestly no benefit to a streetcar that the trolleybus doesn't already serve, and the trolley lines still go down the original trolley routes with their original numbers.
That video is from before the era of the automobile. Streetcars existed well into the time of common car use. Here is one from the 50's.

Video Link


Quite a few more cars, working quite well in conjunction with the streetcar. Also note how in a few locations the streetcar jumps the queue of waiting automobiles/buses. Curb lane streetcars with center lane traffic work quite well in places like Portland.

And there are a few benefits to a streetcar over a trolley bus. A modern streetcar has more capacity, is more easy to move around in, provides more boarding/unloading options, and with proper height platforms offer rampless access for wheelchairs and strollers.

The buses downtown are very busy and get quite full; the time spent by people getting on and off them is quite costly. If you ride say the 16 from Main to Drake, about 3/4 of your time on the bus is spent motionless at bus stops.
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  #1970  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2016, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by s211 View Post
I get the sense that the City of Vancouver got its nips in a twist about this train, likely because it was viewed as an impediment for the City's own streetcar plans (which are hopefully rotting away in a server somewhere).
If Surrey taxpayers want to fund a tourist attraction then more power to them.
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  #1971  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2016, 5:08 AM
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Conrad Yablonski Conrad Yablonski is offline
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Thumbs up

Some weekend this summer I really have to take my bicycle out to Cloverdale and then down to the station for a ride this really looks like fun-Thanks for the update.
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  #1972  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2016, 4:43 PM
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Originally Posted by BCPhil View Post
That video is from before the era of the automobile. Streetcars existed well into the time of common car use. Here is one from the 50's.



Quite a few more cars, working quite well in conjunction with the streetcar.
The only place in Canada that kept their street cars was Toronto (TTC), and even then in the 1980's they wanted to get rid of them.

Vancouver (CMBC) converted theirs to Trolleybuses in the 1950's and kept those buses in operation right up to 1984. So we're currently on the third generation of Trolleybus now.

So returning the street car doesn't make any sense, as it reduces flexibility that the trolleybus has, and if the street ever gets so congested to justify a rail line, it's better to build a subway line.
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  #1973  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2016, 4:57 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is online now
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I'm a huge fan of the streetcar as laid out so far. You would think Granville Island-OV Station-OV Itself-Main St/Science World would be a no brainer as a tourist line. It goes through some major tourist attractions and both major Skytrain lines in a short distance, but just a bit far to walk.

An extension to Stanley Park would be ideal too. These are locations that are never getting any type of rapid transit, and the streetcar is IMHO a perfect solution.

But I have zero hopes of this happening in the foreseeable future. The City would have to foot the bill 100%, and they are focused on Broadway (as they should be) for at least the next 10 years.
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  #1974  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2016, 5:15 PM
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I still don't get this street car thing. What's wrong with a bus? Aside from a handful of train enthusiasts, people don't care
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  #1975  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2016, 6:21 PM
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Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
I'm a huge fan of the streetcar as laid out so far. You would think Granville Island-OV Station-OV Itself-Main St/Science World would be a no brainer as a tourist line.
I think the very concept of a tourist line should require some 'brain', especially when it will cost multi-million dollar investments to get back through the Olympic Village

Let's lay out the oft-cited advantages of a streetcar
  • Capacity
  • Rail Bias
  • Tourist-attraction
  • Development
  • Energy Efficiency

Well, Capacity isn't an issue on the False Creek corridor. The 50 is not a full bus.

Do we really have a drought of tourists or development-attractiveness in this city that we need to goose either by subsidizing a streetcar line?

Trolley buses are already energy efficient, and streetcars only become more efficiency at comparable occupancy rates. Since this is not a crowded corridor I doubt that's the case.

So really, the only good reason to put in a false creek streetcar is that more people would ride it than the 50. This seems somewhat unsatisfying. Transit access is somewhat unsatisfactory to the Island, I'll agree, but I don't see how a streetcar line is a cost efficient solution to that problem.

Frankly, I would not be averse to tearing out the line, developing the right of way, and extending the street-grid north to Lamey's Mill/Charleson/Moberly. The present configuration creates a barrier that isolates south false creek and Fairview from eachother, and doesn't really have all that much transportation benefit.
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  #1976  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2016, 6:26 PM
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So really, the only good reason to put in a false creek streetcar is that more people would ride it than the 50. This seems somewhat unsatisfying. Transit access is somewhat unsatisfactory to the Island, I'll agree, but I don't see how a streetcar line is a cost efficient solution to that problem.
Very well argued, IMHO. And the same goes for extending the line through downtown to Stanley Park.

Transit dollars are precious scarce in Vancouver. They should go towards projects that have much greater benefits than this.
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  #1977  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2016, 6:30 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is online now
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The streetcar has a better ROW as it stands today to get direct, quick access to central Granville Island. If properly invested, it could get the same through to Stanley Park.

I don't claim to understand "train bias" but it definitely exists and should be quantified.
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  #1978  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2016, 7:52 PM
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Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
The streetcar has a better ROW as it stands today to get direct, quick access to central Granville Island. If properly invested, it could get the same through to Stanley Park.

I don't claim to understand "train bias" but it definitely exists and should be quantified.
The #50 provides a direct connection to downtown (Seabus, other buses and Skytrain). With a Streetcar, one would still have to transfer onto a Skytrain to head downtown or to get to the Expo Line unless you build towards Science world- and that would get mighty expensive (you have to install crossings/lights).

Simply put, any streetcar system in Vancouver would appeal to tourists and rail enthusiasts and would bleed money between October-April. TRAMS did a fine job running the seasonal service but there was no possible way to justify running the "Historic Railway" since it was financial black hole. They pretty much asked the City to subsidize the service.

This is all moot though. The line has long since been decommissioned, and most of the overhead wires have been removed. Last I heard (from a City official), the plan was to start remediation of the ROW (and I bet will be sold off to developers). In any case, those rails are coming out this summer/fall.
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  #1979  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2016, 8:39 PM
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Originally Posted by osirisboy View Post
I still don't get this street car thing. What's wrong with a bus? Aside from a handful of train enthusiasts, people don't care
Did you ride it during the Winter Olympics, it was packed. The "train effect" is real. The ROW is there it is stupid not to use it.
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  #1980  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2016, 9:08 PM
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Did you ride it during the Winter Olympics, it was packed. The "train effect" is real. The ROW is there it is stupid not to use it.
^ I can confirm this. Even without tourists and the train-vs-bus thing, it's still a B-Line-type vehicle in a traffic-independent lane potentially connecting Stanley Park, Coal Harbour, Waterfront, Gastown, Chinatown, Science World, Olympic Village, Granville Island, Kerrisdale, Marpole, and all three Skytrain lines (Waterfront, Main Street, Arbutus, Marine Drive). That'll attract commuters too.
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