Basically Canadian

[kool maudit]

This thread is inspired by a guy I know from Buffalo. We talk hockey a lot, and he generally has the demeanour of someone from Southwestern Ontario. As such, and given my remove, I mentally categorise him as 'basically Canadian'.

It is also inspired by Scandinavia itself; when I moved to Denmark from Kosovo, I immediately noticed how familiar things felt. Conversation volumes, standing distances, subtle tones and inflections... it all seemed very Canadian.

That said, I was coming from Kosovo, which isn't at all like Canada. Now that I know Denmark and speak the language, I can report that Danes, while much more similar to Canadians than Albanians, are not really all that Canadian.

They are more direct, more brusque, and their social realm is more... teasing. Danes love a good burn. They are always burning each other and they go farther with it than Canadians would (with near-strangers, say, or at work).

They're just a little bit more rambunctious/outspoken on certain levels, in terms of their public life. Nothing huge, but noticeable.

Swedes are more like Canadians than Danes, but less sort of chummy. They have a bit of an hauteur sometimes, particularly in Stockholm. It's hard to put a finger on but it's there.

Norwegians are a lot like us.

Who do you think is basically Canadian?

[kool maudit]

Example on the Danish burns (this exchange happens in Danish, in English Danes seem milder):

[Man walks into office wearing brightly coloured shirt]

DISTANT DANISH COLLEAGUE: 'Wow that's quite a shirt!'

NON-DANISH SHIRT GUY: 'Oh, yeah, thanks'

DDC: 'Yes, I had one just like that when I was a baby'

NDSG: Weird shy laugh

DDC: 'You must have some game... my wife would never fuck me if I wore a shirt like that!'

I'm not totally sure the baby remark wouldn't happen in a Toronto office but the last part seems a bit much for Canadian worklife. There is this quality of not letting it go, of circling back on it that I notice here...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Example on the Danish burns (this exchange happens in Danish, in English Danes seem milder):

[Man walks into office wearing brightly coloured shirt]

DISTANT DANISH COLLEAGUE: 'Wow that's quite a shirt!'

NON-DANISH SHIRT GUY: 'Oh, yeah, thanks'

DDC: 'Yes, I had one just like that when I was a baby'

NDSG: Weird shy laugh

DDC: 'You must have some game... my wife would never fuck me if I wore a shirt like that!'

I'm not totally sure the baby remark wouldn't happen in a Toronto office but the last part seems a bit much for Canadian worklife. There is this quality of not letting it go, of circling back on it that I notice here...

I find that this off-colour candour is quite typical of societies where people have mostly lived amongst themselves for a fairly long time with little in terms of diversity influxes. I am aware that Denmark today is reasonably diverse but the time when even in Copenhagen it was mostly just all Danes living with other Danes with only a few straggler outsiders is still easily within living memory.

Cultures that have more of a historic relationship to diversity tend to be more likely to hold back a bit on this front. (Though they can be rambunctious in other ways it's true.)

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I find that this off-colour candour is quite typical of societies where people have mostly lived amongst themselves for a fairly long time with little in terms of diversity influxes. I am aware that Denmark today is reasonably diverse but the time when even in Copenhagen it was mostly just all Danes living with other Danes with only a few straggler outsiders is still easily within living memory.

Cultures that have more of a historic relationship to diversity tend to be more likely to hold back a bit on this front. (Though they can be rambunctious in other ways it's true.)

It could explain why discussing the weather is the great Canadian social opener. In a diverse society, one needs a few extra moments to establish the safe parameters of interaction since everybody experiences weather. Although in this forum, even that can be the source of tensions ....

[Acajack]

I have always found that Australia is an incredibly comfortable fit for me, and am surprised that it hasn't been mentioned by other Canadians here.

Yes, they are more brash and rambunctious than (Anglo-)Canadians but maybe to me even though I was very "anglo" when I first went there in my youth, I still had quite a bit of exposure to the less reserved francophone side of our country back then so the Aussie persona still wasn't particularly jarring to me.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I have always found that Australia is an incredibly comfortable fit for me, and am surprised that it hasn't been mentioned by other Canadians here.

Yes, they are more brash and rambunctious than (Anglo-)Canadians but maybe to me even though I was very "anglo" when I first went there in my youth, I still had quite a bit of exposure to the less reserved francophone side of our country back then so the Aussie persona still wasn't particularly jarring to me.

In my experience, Australians and Canadians are a very comfortable fit, at least when they interact abroad. I've not been to Australia to experience "one among the many".

[drew]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I have always found that Australia is an incredibly comfortable fit for me, and am surprised that it hasn't been mentioned by other Canadians here.

Yes, they are more brash and rambunctious than (Anglo-)Canadians but maybe to me even though I was very "anglo" when I first went there in my youth, I still had quite a bit of exposure to the less reserved francophone side of our country back then so the Aussie persona still wasn't particularly jarring to me.

I have spent some time in Australia, and yes the country is very easy as a Canadian to fit into. It feels very familiar.

That being said, I think in terms of "temperament", Canadians are a closer match to Kiwis then Australians. The former being a bit more reserved and the latter... well not.

I didn't spend anytime in NZ, but met many Kiwis in Australia.

NZ is to Australia as Canada is the US. So to me, it seems the personalities line up in a similar fashion.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

It could explain why discussing the weather is the great Canadian social opener. In a diverse society, one needs a few extra moments to establish the safe parameters of interaction since everybody experiences weather. Although in this forum, even that can be the source of tensions ....

There was a study that claimed that Americans smile so much and come across as fake to many non-smiling cultures because of it being a nation of immigrants with less shared culture. In diverse places, smiles are non-threatening, friendly and allow people to be able to bond.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...o-much/524967/

Don't know how relevant or reasonable that explanation is though to Canada vs. US as a difference.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

There was a study that claimed that Americans smile so much and come across as fake to many non-smiling cultures because of it being a nation of immigrants with less shared culture. In diverse places, smiles are non-threatening, friendly and allow people to be able to bond.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...o-much/524967/

Don't know how relevant or reasonable that explanation is though to Canada vs. US as a difference.

Canadians are also a "high smile" people.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I find that this off-colour candour is quite typical of societies where people have mostly lived amongst themselves for a fairly long time with little in terms of diversity influxes. I am aware that Denmark today is reasonably diverse but the time when even in Copenhagen it was mostly just all Danes living with other Danes with only a few straggler outsiders is still easily within living memory.

Cultures that have more of a historic relationship to diversity tend to be more likely to hold back a bit on this front. (Though they can be rambunctious in other ways it's true.)

This makes sense, and it explains why it doesn't come across when interacting with Danes in English nearly as much.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

This makes sense, and it explains why it doesn't come across when interacting with Danes in English nearly as much.

It is similar to the difference in how you behave when only with family or in the presence of company.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Example on the Danish burns (this exchange happens in Danish, in English Danes seem milder):

[Man walks into office wearing brightly coloured shirt]

DISTANT DANISH COLLEAGUE: 'Wow that's quite a shirt!'

NON-DANISH SHIRT GUY: 'Oh, yeah, thanks'

DDC: 'Yes, I had one just like that when I was a baby'

NDSG: Weird shy laugh

DDC: 'You must have some game... my wife would never fuck me if I wore a shirt like that!'

I'm not totally sure the baby remark wouldn't happen in a Toronto office but the last part seems a bit much for Canadian worklife. There is this quality of not letting it go, of circling back on it that I notice here...

this situation would be entirely dependent on setting, geography, field of work in the u.s. and i could see it go either way, but generally in a mixed corporate office environment it would be a deviation from the norm in the midwest, west, or (generally) u.s. south with the exception of the energy sector perhaps. in a lot of places this would be outrageous, unless alcohol were involved.

it feels like a very “wall street” setting to me.

[SignalHillHiker]

While trying to avoid reciting a litany of our stereotypes of mainlanders and just sticking to personal experience...

Social interactions are much more confined than I'm used to. You don't learn the cashier's life story, the cabbie stops trying to strike up conversation, you can sit alone at a cafe or club and never be invited to join a full table. You can be lonely and isolated in a way that simply isn't possible here. It may be superficial, but the feeling of it settles into your bones and becomes more influential over time. You don't feel like everyone is living on your lap and vice versa. You don't feel every person you meet is part of the same community.

Conversations and behaviours are more formal, distant. The waitress simply will not tell you to "Hurry up me love I've got other tables waiting." There are lots of exceptions - I went to wedding in Manitoba that was like a stand-up show, just the same as here and in all the best ways. But most of your daily experiences with people will be colder, transactional.

Thinking of things that actually are universally Canadian - I think we tolerate obscene nepotism and graft, but are genuinely shocked and unaccepting of bribery and more direct, on-the-street forms of corruption.

We queue politely.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

.....

Social interactions are much more confined than I'm used to. You don't learn the cashier's life story, the cabbie stops trying to strike up conversation, you can sit alone at a cafe or club and never be invited to join a full table. You can be lonely and isolated in a way that simply isn't possible here. It may be superficial, but the feeling of it settles into your bones and becomes more influential over time. You don't feel like everyone is living on your lap and vice versa. You don't feel every person you meet is part of the same community.

Conversations and behaviours are more formal, distant. The waitress simply will not tell you to "Hurry up me love I've got other tables waiting." There are lots of exceptions - I went to wedding in Manitoba that was like a stand-up show, just the same as here and in all the best ways. But most of your daily experiences with people will be colder, transactional.

.....

Sounds more or less like the differences one might find between city dwellers and small town/rural dwellers in Ontario. Not something unique to Canada, in my experience, although the over-arching "reserve" is basically Canadian (some exceptions apply).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Sounds more or less like the differences one might find between city dwellers and small town/rural dwellers in Ontario. Not something unique to Canada, in my experience, although the over-arching "reserve" is basically Canadian (some exceptions apply).

While we are not like the Italians of course, I find Quebecers are a huge exception to the legendary Canadian "reserve" and the whole "sorry" thing.

Newfoundland is an exception to the "reserve" as well but perhaps not so much to the "sorry" thing.

Overall I find the dominant temperament quite similar over a huge swath of the country whether I am in Lower Sackville, NS, Belleville, ON, Saskatoon, SK or Kamloops, BC. It's actually quite remarkable when you consider the distances and how most people in these places have probably never been to at least two of the other regions I've mentioned.

Quebecers are pretty much in line with other Canadians though when it comes to general outlook on life such as minding one's own business (Canada is a huge MYOB country IMO), or the need for a balance between mercantile interests and having a healthy somewhat egalitarian society, etc. No area of Canada can truly be said to be predominantly dog-eat-dog in its mindset, for example. Not even Alberta!

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

While we are not like the Italians of course, I find Quebecers are a huge exception to the legendary Canadian "reserve" and the whole "sorry" thing.

Newfoundland is an exception to the "reserve" as well but perhaps not so much to the "sorry" thing.

Overall I find the dominant temperament quite similar over a huge swath of the country whether I am in Lower Sackville, NS, Belleville, ON, Saskatoon, SK or Kamloops, BC. It's actually quite remarkable when you consider the distances and how most people in these places have probably never been to at least two of the other regions I've mentioned.

Quebecers are pretty much in line with other Canadians though when it comes to general outlook on life such as minding one's own business (Canada is a huge MYOB country IMO), or the need for a balance between mercantile interests and having a healthy somewhat egalitarian society, etc. No area of Canada can truly be said to be predominantly dog-eat-dog in its mindset, for example. Not even Alberta!

We're definitely an exception to the 'saying sorry when it's not your fault at all' rule, but I have noticed that while we're more social than Anglo-Canadians, in a greater North American context we're far from outliers.

The eye-opener for me was in 2015, right after I came back from living in Texas for a couple months (the midwestern part of it, even - so likely the closest to being Northern in terms of reserve), one of the first things I did upon getting home was to take the Quebec-Levis ferry and the QEII was docked there, I made a relevant remark about it to the guy next to me and he looked at me in a weird way (his expression said 'I don't know you, why are you talking to me'). On that weekend, I had a few other occasions to confirm we're actually colder than I thought. It took the cultural shock of going away for a couple months to highlight it.

(I know I shared that anecdote already on SSP, but it seems on topic to mention it again here )

To French visitors our Canadian 'reserve' must be striking. I've never thought of asking my cousins how they perceived us, I suppose I could.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

To French visitors our Canadian 'reserve' must be striking. I've never thought of asking my cousins how they perceived us, I suppose I could.

Generally speaking the French tend to find the Québécois friendly and down-to-earth. Probably refreshingly non-cynical and non-bitchy, even if it's not always phrased in those terms.

I've heard this from the French who live here, those who've visited and it also seems to be the reputation Quebec has in France itself.

This is not necessarily the same thing as "reserve", and it is also true the French sometimes spot (or think they spot) what they see as "anglo-saxon" traits in the Québécois. "Reserve" or what they would call "retenue" or a kind of refreshing level-headedness (compared to the impulsive French) are probably on the list. Again, this is just my experience talking.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

We're definitely an exception to the 'saying sorry when it's not your fault at all' rule, but I have noticed that while we're more social than Anglo-Canadians, in a greater North American context we're far from outliers.

The eye-opener for me was in 2015, right after I came back from living in Texas for a couple months (the midwestern part of it, even - so likely the closest to being Northern in terms of reserve), one of the first things I did upon getting home was to take the Quebec-Levis ferry and the QEII was docked there, I made a relevant remark about it to the guy next to me and he looked at me in a weird way (his expression said 'I don't know you, why are you talking to me'). On that weekend, I had a few other occasions to confirm we're actually colder than I thought. It took the cultural shock of going away for a couple months to highlight it.

(I know I shared that anecdote already on SSP, but it seems on topic to mention it again here )
.

I totally agree with this. On the "social" side when compared to the rest of Canada-USA we're probably somewhere in the middle, perhaps slightly more on the "talkative" side than the "non-talkative" side.

That said we're definitely outliers when compared to Anglo North America in terms of personal space, touching strangers and other little physical or interpersonal things. Not saying it happens every single time but for example a random waiter or waitress is 1000 times more likely to touch a patron in Quebec than anywhere else in Canada or the U.S. (Anglo North Americans are generally quite touchy when it comes to their personal space.)

And I don't know of any metro of over 4 million people other than Montreal where I as a middle aged man might get occasionally referred to as "mon cher" (my dear) by 20-something female or male gas station attendants. But a little old lady who runs a pastry shop in rural Newfoundland might do that, of course...

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

While we are not like the Italians of course, I find Quebecers are a huge exception to the legendary Canadian "reserve" and the whole "sorry" thing.

Newfoundland is an exception to the "reserve" as well but perhaps not so much to the "sorry" thing.

Overall I find the dominant temperament quite similar over a huge swath of the country whether I am in Lower Sackville, NS, Belleville, ON, Saskatoon, SK or Kamloops, BC. It's actually quite remarkable when you consider the distances and how most people in these places have probably never been to at least two of the other regions I've mentioned.

Quebecers are pretty much in line with other Canadians though when it comes to general outlook on life such as minding one's own business (Canada is a huge MYOB country IMO), or the need for a balance between mercantile interests and having a healthy somewhat egalitarian society, etc. No area of Canada can truly be said to be predominantly dog-eat-dog in its mindset, for example. Not even Alberta!

I agree with you Acajack. Your observations are very accurate. I've done a lot of travelling within Canada including Quebec.

I would say that most Franco-Ontarians are much less reserved than the average anglophone in Ontario. ( Many of my francophone friends and colleagues at work will mention that they find me reserved and that I'm less willing to share intimate things about myself. I find that they are more open about family issues, health issues including mental heath, sex and relationships. At work, they are much more likely to have cell phone conversations about sensitive issues in the open without going to a private room. There seems to be much less shame than compared to how anglophones deal with those things. (I have to add that among anglophone there are a number who are quite open who are often from specific backgrounds such as Italian or Eastern European for example)

I also agree that most Canadians across Canada are very good when it comes to minding one's own business. I find that campgrounds are good places to test that. In the U.S. we almost always had people stop at our site just to make conversation. Sometimes they would just want to show off their RV or trailer by inviting us over to their site. We did get a number of invitations in Newfoundland to campsites for beer but overall most people even there minded their own business. I always find that Quebec is ideal because people there are amazingly good at respecting campsite privacy but will be very friendly and open if you start a conversation.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I agree with you Acajack. Your observations are very accurate. I've done a lot of travelling within Canada including Quebec.

I would say that most Franco-Ontarians are much less reserved than the average anglophone in Ontario. ( Many of my francophone friends and colleagues at work will mention that they find me reserved and that I'm less willing to share intimate things about myself. I find that they are more open about family issues, health issues including mental heath, sex and relationships. At work, they are much more likely to have cell phone conversations about sensitive issues in the open without going to a private room. There seems to be much less shame than compared to how anglophones deal with those things. (I have to add that among anglophone there are a number who are quite open who are often from specific backgrounds such as Italian or Eastern European for example)

I also agree that most Canadians across Canada are very good when it comes to minding one's own business. I find that campgrounds are good places to test that. In the U.S. we almost always had people stop at our site just to make conversation. Sometimes they would just want to show off their RV or trailer by inviting us over to their site. We did get a number of invitations in Newfoundland to campsites for beer but overall most people even there minded their own business. I always find that Quebec is ideal because people there are amazingly good at respecting campsite privacy but will be very friendly and open if you start a conversation.

I like this!