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  #21  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 4:18 PM
Urbanarchit Urbanarchit is offline
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Does anyone think this may have something to do with what's going on with Russia and Ukraine/Crimea?
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  #22  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 4:23 PM
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Originally Posted by defishel View Post
Does anyone think this may have something to do with what's going on with Russia and Ukraine/Crimea?
Not sure if this was a rhetorical question or not, but yes, I believe it has everything to do with that.

There are >1.2 million people in Canada of Ukrainian descent. That's a lot of votes.
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  #23  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 4:24 PM
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Meanwhile, memorials for the victims of residential schools are tucked far away from line of sight of Parliament. It's disgusting how we are so intent at wagging our own fingers at atrocities in other countries while sweeping ours under the rug. How about the a memorial to victims of our own internment camps or reminder of the Head Tax so these things never happen again?
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  #24  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 4:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ac888yow View Post
Not sure if this was a rhetorical question or not, but yes, I believe it has everything to do with that.

There are >1.2 million people in Canada of Ukrainian descent. That's a lot of votes.
The fact that is moving ahead now: YES.

But it's been proposed for a while I am sure.
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  #25  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 4:33 PM
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The fact that is moving ahead now: YES.

But it's been proposed for a while I am sure.
I agree.
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  #26  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 4:53 PM
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This is exactly what I cannot stand about this government. It's not (just) a question of political views or policy, it's the apparent lack of any genuine desire to do anything beyond 'winning'. There are no issues, values, morals or anything. Just voters, taxpayers and consumers ripe for the pickn'.

I expect a certain amount of electoralist spin to be put on things which are already justified by other things, but when that becomes the ONLY reason for doing something, it's gone way to far. I know that people beat the 'no government is perfect' drum, but this is definitely a new and scary direction for public discourse in Canada, no matter where it comes from.
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  #27  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 4:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
The fact that is moving ahead now: YES.

But it's been proposed for a while I am sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ac888yow View Post
I agree.
alright, now you two need to get a room!
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  #28  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 4:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Aylmer View Post
This is exactly what I cannot stand about this government. It's not (just) a question of political views or policy, it's the apparent lack of any genuine desire to do anything beyond 'winning'. There are no issues, values, morals or anything. Just voters, taxpayers and consumers ripe for the pickn'.
To be fair, it's how most governments work. Look at what Watson just did with the 261 Laurier student residence. Politicians aren't looking out for the best interest of the country or city, but for their own self-interest, even if that means throwing people under the bus. There's a reason why people in this country are apathetic to politics and voting.

This video of Andrew Coyne seems appropriate.
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  #29  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 5:07 PM
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alright, now you two need to get a room!
Wow... was our mutual antipathy that legendary on here?
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  #30  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 5:13 PM
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Originally Posted by defishel View Post
Does anyone think this may have something to do with what's going on with Russia and Ukraine/Crimea?
No, this seems to have been in the works for many years. Here's some background reading:

http://www.tributetoliberty.ca/

http://humanistottawaweb.wordpress.c...ippery-slopes/

http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/4675...rian-communism

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/cana...ent-22921.html

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/departm...2010-08-13.asp

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/vict...hill-1.1314741

http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/kenne...nism-1.1502277
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  #31  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 6:23 PM
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There is no perfect economic system. If we build a monument for the "victims" of communism, maybe we should build a monument to the "victims" of capitalism. How many people have lost everything because of big companies; car companies and big banks lay off countless people because of a few overpaid idiots on top can't make good decisions. Or how about (and thank Douglas, Pearson and God we don't have this problem) lost everything because they couldn't pay their medical bills?

If we're going to criticize one group, we must criticize all of them, otherwise we are hypocrites.

UPDATE: didn't notice Kitchissippi made the same comment earlier.

Last edited by J.OT13; Apr 2, 2014 at 6:55 PM.
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  #32  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 6:39 PM
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How about a Memorial to the Victims of Capitalism? You know, the millions who have lost their livelihoods because of corporate greed?
Exactly what I'm thinking. I'm 100% with you.
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  #33  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 9:11 PM
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Wonder what Poutine would say?
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  #34  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2014, 4:27 AM
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I agree that a memorial to just the Holodomor would be much more appropriate (though not in this location). The problem is really that it reeks of politics. It is true that many people died under "communist" regimes but many people have also died of mass atrocities in right-wing regimes (Argentina, Mussolini, etc.). Totalitarianism is really the common factor, communism is not a cause of death - unless you are a neoconservative zealot.
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  #35  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2014, 2:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Temperance View Post
I agree that a memorial to just the Holodomor would be much more appropriate (though not in this location). The problem is really that it reeks of politics. It is true that many people died under "communist" regimes but many people have also died of mass atrocities in right-wing regimes (Argentina, Mussolini, etc.). Totalitarianism is really the common factor, communism is not a cause of death - unless you are a neoconservative zealot.
I am surprised that this seems to be the prevailing view here. While on a technical basis an argument could be made that it was the actions of specific dictators rather than the ideology that killed people that nuance would be, I believe, dismissed by the majority of Canadians. In fact there has been no real mainstream argument against the idea.
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  #36  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2014, 3:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Temperance View Post
I agree that a memorial to just the Holodomor would be much more appropriate (though not in this location). The problem is really that it reeks of politics. It is true that many people died under "communist" regimes but many people have also died of mass atrocities in right-wing regimes (Argentina, Mussolini, etc.). Totalitarianism is really the common factor, communism is not a cause of death - unless you are a neoconservative zealot.
And I am pretty sure that as far as total victims goes, religion probably tops them all. But I don't see anyone clamouring for a monument to the victims of religion. We even have a new Office for Religious Freedom, don't we?

And BTW I am not necessarily an anti-religion person.
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  #37  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2014, 3:31 PM
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Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
I am surprised that this seems to be the prevailing view here. While on a technical basis an argument could be made that it was the actions of specific dictators rather than the ideology that killed people that nuance would be, I believe, dismissed by the majority of Canadians. In fact there has been no real mainstream argument against the idea.
I think ideology can play a role no doubt, but less so than most people think. It is often used as a tool to justify oppression. For example, the purges in the East late in the Khmer Rouge regime - were those "communist" killings or was it Pol Pot becoming increasingly paranoid? I think saying communism kills people is still absurdly reductionist. There are certainly communist regimes that did not result in mass atrocities of the type that occurred in Ukraine or China. One could even make the argument that those were not true communist regimes. My point is that one would only build a monument, on a site of national significance, to "victims of communism" in furtherance of an overriding ideological agenda.

FYI my day job is researching the causes of mass violence (and working towards the prosecution of those responsible). Also, I am not a communist
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  #38  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2014, 3:39 PM
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I don't think that there can be any doubt that the understated goal of this is to portray the people on the left side of the political spectrum as the "bad guys".

Somehow I doubt that this government would erect a monument to the victims of people like Augusto Pinochet.
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  #39  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2014, 4:01 PM
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Why is the Holocaust memorial met with so much acceptance, yet this one is not? Holocaust lasted 5-6 years? Communism in the European Eastern Block lasted for a few decades, and life in these countries was more miserable than any of you could imagine, trust me, I know, I grew up in Poland in the 80s. Many Ukrainians, Poles and Eastern Europeans immigrated to Canada and USA to escape communism during those years, often risking their lives, breaking up families etc. Many Europeans died during the Communist years, there were genocides, executions, deportations and famines, and these lasted for decades and not just in one contry, but in over a dozen.

So why is it that we all agree to the Holocaust memorial, but have to react negatively to the Communist one? Why is one ok and not the other?
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  #40  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2014, 4:13 PM
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So very true in a lot of ways, however, cut us a break here; it's not as is this phenomenon is exclusive to Ottawa. Ever browsed through the Canada forum and/or any other of its sub-forums? It doesn't take long to determine the overriding ideology of the membership.
Not that I want to extend the life of this thread, but...

Can we have a moratorium on monuments? There are too many.

In Ottawa, an the nation's capital, I can understand why monument critical mass would occur. That's where 'national' monuments will be. In the next year or so there'll be a Holocaust monument by the war museum, while last year the firefighter's monument was built (across the street).

Eventually we will have a monument for everyone's pet cause (not to minimize Human Rights, War Memorial, etc), and this should stop. It's like opening a bag of chips - everyone will want to have one. No one wants to drive into a 'City of Monuments', unless those monuments touch the sky in a breathtaking manner (Eiffel Tower, Washington Monument, St. Louis Arch, etc). Go to any old, American city and there will be a few key monuments, in a nice park.

I'm sick of monuments - not just for their overabundance, but also for the obligatory axe-grinding that occurs before, during, and after the loooooong monument process.

That was my monumental thread post.
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