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  #41  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2014, 4:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Radster View Post
Why is the Holocaust memorial met with so much acceptance, yet this one is not? Holocaust lasted 5-6 years? Communism in the European Eastern Block lasted for a few decades, and life in these countries was more miserable than any of you could imagine, trust me, I know, I grew up in Poland in the 80s. Many Ukrainians, Poles and Eastern Europeans immigrated to Canada and USA to escape communism during those years, often risking their lives, breaking up families etc. Many Europeans died during the Communist years, there were genocides, executions, deportations and famines, and these lasted for decades and not just in one contry, but in over a dozen.

So why is it that we all agree to the Holocaust memorial, but have to react negatively to the Communist one? Why is one ok and not the other?

Because, as it was pointed out, it's very reductionist. I'm not 100% for the holocaust memorial ― I don't know how relevant it is to Canada's history ― but it designates the killing of millions of people.
Communism, on the other hand, is a theoretical class-less social structure which has never been implemented in a country (one of its core principles is that communism is stateless). Communism hasn't kill anyone. Totalitarianism, fanaticism and a disregard for human rights has and continues to do so in both capitalist and collectivist countries.

It's not that we're sympathetic to sovietism or even communism, but it's unnerving to equate communism with oppression and genocide and imply that capitalism equals the quality of life we enjoy here in Canada. What about 1980s Chile, Franco's Spain or even Nazi Germany? It's both untrue and a dangerous precedent for the demonisation of a certain political views (like the American 'Red Scares').

So let's make a monument to human rights or the victims of totalitarianism or fanaticism, but let's not single out specific totalitarian regimes and ignore the horrors of others just because it plays to the government's ideological or electoral advantage.
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  #42  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2014, 7:17 PM
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Really? "a memorial to the victims of communism"? Something that was not present in Canadian politics whatsoever?

How dumb can this government get?

Are we also going to erect a memorial to the victims of capitalism? Or how about a memorial to the victims of Christianity and religion in general?

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Originally Posted by Radster View Post
Why is the Holocaust memorial met with so much acceptance, yet this one is not? Holocaust lasted 5-6 years? Communism in the European Eastern Block lasted for a few decades, and life in these countries was more miserable than any of you could imagine, trust me, I know, I grew up in Poland in the 80s. Many Ukrainians, Poles and Eastern Europeans immigrated to Canada and USA to escape communism during those years, often risking their lives, breaking up families etc. Many Europeans died during the Communist years, there were genocides, executions, deportations and famines, and these lasted for decades and not just in one contry, but in over a dozen.

So why is it that we all agree to the Holocaust memorial, but have to react negatively to the Communist one? Why is one ok and not the other?
I don't support either one. I mean the holocaust was a horrendous event but Ottawa is not exactly the most appropriate place for a holocaust memorial.
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  #43  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2014, 9:38 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by S-Man View Post
I still hear about Bev Oda's $16 orange juice from people but not a peep about the Nixonian $1.1 billion vote-buying and coverup of the revered and idolized provincial government, so I shouldn't be surprised
Revered?

Idolized?

Back to the topic: the real reason for this lame-ass monument is so that Harper can prevent a building full of public-sector workers going up on the spot.

And anti-communism? That's Ray Novak...
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  #44  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2014, 9:39 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by S-Man View Post
Not that I want to extend the life of this thread, but...

Can we have a moratorium on monuments? There are too many.
Or can we have a Monument to Monuments? A Metamonument?
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  #45  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2014, 10:55 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by Aylmer View Post
Because, as it was pointed out, it's very reductionist. I'm not 100% for the holocaust memorial ― I don't know how relevant it is to Canada's history ― but it designates the killing of millions of people.
Communism, on the other hand, is a theoretical class-less social structure which has never been implemented in a country (one of its core principles is that communism is stateless). Communism hasn't kill anyone. Totalitarianism, fanaticism and a disregard for human rights has and continues to do so in both capitalist and collectivist countries.
As I said above, I think this is silly monument, but these various regimes called themselves communist, were ruled by communist parties, belonged to the Communist International, glorified communist theorists, etc. It seems a little odd to say that the word communism only belongs to the theory, but all implementations of the theory, all people who advocated the theory, etc. are some different word. And even if communism had somehow been implemented in perfect alignment with theory, the theoretical requirements of such a system (world revolution, dictatorship of the proletariat, etc) would have left a lot of victims. That's a little like criticizing a monument to the victims of Apartheid because the South African government didn't properly implement the system according to the theory.
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  #46  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2014, 11:27 PM
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But it wasn't implemented - especially under Stalin, it was a patrimonial regime very much in keeping with the regimes that have existed in Russia since the 17th century and Ivan the Terrible. The only real difference was that it claimed to be communist. But that isn't the constant - tyranny and totalitarianism exist independently of what they claim to represent (be it communism, democracy or the colour green). Why then don't we commemorate its victims?

But regardless, you seem to have missed my point: it's not that communism is 'innocent' or 'guilty'. It's that it's a slippery slope when we start singling out certain horrors based on ideology and not fact.

If the USSR was capitalist, the goulags, the forced relocations and the tyranny wouldn't have disappeared, just as much of it existed long before the Bolsheviks. Would that make it any less worth remembering?


I know that we can't commemorate every bad thing that happened, but just making a memorial for the victims of communist regimes is deliberately unbalanced for partisan and ideological reasons.
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Last edited by Aylmer; Apr 3, 2014 at 11:40 PM.
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  #47  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2014, 3:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Aylmer View Post
I know that we can't commemorate every bad thing that happened, but just making a memorial for the victims of communist regimes is deliberately unbalanced for partisan and ideological reasons.
Same logic applies to Holocaust Memorial.
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  #48  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2014, 3:09 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by Aylmer View Post
But it wasn't implemented - especially under Stalin, it was a patrimonial regime very much in keeping with the regimes that have existed in Russia since the 17th century and Ivan the Terrible. The only real difference was that it claimed to be communist. But that isn't the constant - tyranny and totalitarianism exist independently of what they claim to represent (be it communism, democracy or the colour green). Why then don't we commemorate its victims?

But regardless, you seem to have missed my point: it's not that communism is 'innocent' or 'guilty'. It's that it's a slippery slope when we start singling out certain horrors based on ideology and not fact.

If the USSR was capitalist, the goulags, the forced relocations and the tyranny wouldn't have disappeared, just as much of it existed long before the Bolsheviks. Would that make it any less worth remembering?


I know that we can't commemorate every bad thing that happened, but just making a memorial for the victims of communist regimes is deliberately unbalanced for partisan and ideological reasons.
I agree with all of those points, I'm just saying you can't say there were no victims of communism because communism never existed. The self-identified communist governments implemented phase 1 of the theory (violent revolution) and phase 2 of the theory (dictatorship of the proletariat) with little problem (and leaving lots of victims). They never got around the phase 3 (state withers away) because the massive totalitarian state necessary to implement phase 1 and phase 2 was not going to to go quietly into the night (which is why communism is a deeply flawed theory that will never work). So to summarize, I think the monument is a bad idea because:
1) It takes up real estate that should be used for a building and screws up the symmetry of the supreme court area
2) It opens the door to a wide range of monuments to belief systems that also produced victims.
But I don't think it is a bad idea because communism had no victims (at 100M it would probably top the leaderboard in the 20th century)
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  #49  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2014, 3:32 PM
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Why do we have a Shevchenko Monument in Ottawa? Why is there a statue of BOLIVAR? Why are we getting a Holocaust Memorial? Why a Communist one?

Because this is a Capital of a G8 nation, a nation built in the last few hundred years by immigrants who can relate to all these monuments.

Now deal with it and lets talk design
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  #50  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2014, 7:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radster View Post
Why do we have a Shevchenko Monument in Ottawa? Why is there a statue of BOLIVAR? Why are we getting a Holocaust Memorial? Why a Communist one?

Because this is a Capital of a G8 nation, a nation built in the last few hundred years by immigrants who can relate to all these monuments.

Now deal with it and lets talk design
I don't agree. I don't think this country is and should be defined only by the fact we are part of the G8 (which only goal is to promote and expend the capitalist economical system). BTW, I'm an immigrant born and raised in another G8 country. No, communism and holocaust do not belong to the same categories. It is playing the "you're with me or you're a terrorist" game the US tried to bully the world with a decade ago, sorry.

However, yes, we may talk design
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  #51  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2014, 8:21 PM
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The Shevchenko and Bolivar monuments are fully funded by foundations and do not try to pass as Canadian national monuments. They are tributes by specific groups that are entitled to their opinions and expressions.

I am also an immigrant from a country that suffered under a dictator, but I am more than happy to leave that baggage where it belongs. To me the journey to becoming Canadian has been about a clean slate and moving forward, and not dwelling on the past. This is why I feel that these monuments (both this one and the one for the Holocaust) are so un-Canadian in that focus too much on the wounds and scars instead of the healing that this country has offered. While there are survivors of these tragedies who are now Canadian, they were citizens of other countries when these events happened. I personally have discarded unpleasant experiences from former homeland, choosing only to incorporate the positive aspects of my culture into my Canadian identity.
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  #52  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2014, 1:06 PM
LeadingEdgeBoomer LeadingEdgeBoomer is online now
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
I agree with all of those points, I'm just saying you can't say there were no victims of communism because communism never existed. The self-identified communist governments implemented phase 1 of the theory (violent revolution) and phase 2 of the theory (dictatorship of the proletariat) with little problem (and leaving lots of victims). They never got around the phase 3 (state withers away) because the massive totalitarian state necessary to implement phase 1 and phase 2 was not going to to go quietly into the night (which is why communism is a deeply flawed theory that will never work). So to summarize, I think the monument is a bad idea because:
1) It takes up real estate that should be used for a building and screws up the symmetry of the supreme court area
2) It opens the door to a wide range of monuments to belief systems that also produced victims.
But I don't think it is a bad idea because communism had no victims (at 100M it would probably top the leaderboard in the 20th century)
I understand the point that true communism as proposed by Marx et al. was never reached, and never will be, as it inevitably ends up as a totalitarian government that won't let go.

If we are to have a monument to the victims of the oppression of those who purported to be communists, perhaps the proposed Holocaust memorial should remember all the victims of fascism. Victims of the Nazis , Mussolini's Fascisti, Franco's Spanish Facists and so on.
The Holocaust could be a central feature of that monument, as it was the most horrific example of a fascist state deliberately organizing the murder of one specific group.
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  #53  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2014, 1:45 PM
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We can't have a block-sized memorial downtown for every specific genocide, war, crazy ideology and empire throughout history. Not only is it impractical, but we also risk excluding a great number of human tragedies by having a monument to this specific war and this specific regime.

They are all deserving and I find it disrespectful to cherry-pick which lives lost are worth commemorating and which ones can be swept under the rug.

If we do hand-pick specific tragedies, we should be asking why this specific one is so much more deserving than the rest. I fear that in the case of the 'victims of communism memorial', ideological fervour has tainted the decision in a hugely inappropriate manner much reminiscent of the very fanaticism the Conservatives seem so keen on denouncing in marble and stone.

We should have monuments for the victims of genocide or totalitarianism or human rights abuses and keep this dirty new style of partisanship and ideology out of this completely.
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  #54  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2014, 4:13 PM
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Just noticed that the 6 finalists were *quietly released* by the Department of Canadian Heritage as of June 18th, 2014.

Quote:
The jury of design professionals, specialists, and a representative from Tribute to Liberty, the charitable organization responsible for establishing the memorial, recommended the following six teams as finalists:
Team Bartosik: Michal Maciej Bartosik, artist; Fung Lee, landscape architect; James Melvin, landscape architect (all from Toronto, Ontario)

Team Kapusta: Janusz Kapusta, artist (New York, USA); Voytek Gorczynski, architect (Toronto, Ontario); Andrzej Pawlik, architect (Mazowieckie, Poland)

Team Moskaliuk: Wiktor Moskaliuk, architect (Markham, Ontario); Larysa Kurylas, artist (Washington, D.C.); Roger Courtenay, landscape architect (Markham, Ontario)

Team North: Alissa North, landscape architect; Peter North, landscape architect; and Scott Eunson, artist (all from Toronto, Ontario)

Team Phillips: Christopher Phillips, landscape architect (Vancouver, British Columbia); Marc Boutin, architect (Calgary, Alberta); Krzysztof Wodiczko, artist (New York, USA)

Team PLANT: Lisa Rapoport, architect; Anna Passakas and Radoslaw Kudlinski of Blue Republic, artists; Eric Beck Rubin, historian (all from Toronto, Ontario)

Quote:
The teams will spend the coming weeks developing their concepts, which will be presented to the jury in August 2014. Prior to the jury considerations, the public will be invited to see the designs, meet the artists and share their opinions on each of the designs. The public’s comments will be shared with the jury.
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  #55  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2014, 9:50 PM
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Is this serious? Tories are hilarious.

I vote for a statue of Kissinger standing on a pile of commie-scum skulls.

Once finished whoever thought of this should get their own hero statue.
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  #56  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2014, 3:28 AM
Admiral Nelson Admiral Nelson is offline
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This is absurd. Who's the minister pushing for these political "memorials"?
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  #57  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2014, 4:02 AM
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In terms of landscape architect / architecture firms it is (same order as above)

PMA
ABSTRAKT Studio Architecture
AECOM
North Design Office
PFS
PLANT
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  #58  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2014, 12:35 PM
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This is a thinly-veiled electoral ploy... Watch them trumpet these memorials in 2015 in the relevant ridings. I have no problem with Conservatives targeting minorities, but for the sake of what little respect they have for the Canadian public, don't fund partisan campaigns with public dollars on public land and pretend it's some great gesture.

God, I hope there's an election before this goes through, no offence to its designers.
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  #59  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2014, 3:31 PM
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This is a thinly-veiled electoral ploy...
Same can be said for the Holocaust monument.
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  #60  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2014, 3:41 PM
S-Man S-Man is offline
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Are we re-starting this axe-grinding circle jerk again?
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