Confederation Line West LRT Extension (Stage 2) [Tunney's to Baseline/Moodie] | U/C

[silvergate]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Since when does the 'community' decide what's built? It's time we as a city learn to ignore these people and go with what's best for the city as a whole. A shallow berm will keep the trains out of sight & hearshot of the people nearby and has a minimal cost. A full bored tunnel is an extra billion dollars, roughly, and 'community' concerns for only a few thousand people cannot justify that expense. When you do the math that would come out to spending something like $20,000 per person in Kitchissippi Ward. Not fair to everybody else.

And seriously, who can stop us? Watson could easily get a council majority for a shallow berm across Byron Park. Leiper and the inner city people would probably vote against it, and Watson would probably lose votes in the area, but the rest of the city with its 90% of the voters wouldn't give a damn. NCC can't stop us, OMB can't. Let them cry.

God. First Scott Street then this. I wonder if we shouldn't just expropriate the whole damn ward and kick all these whiny nuts out. Would make building up this city so much easier.

It would make sense for this entire alignment to cut underground from Westboro Station and then come up through your berm along Richmond. In the case of Rochester Field use, the train misses a huge chunk of the population along Richmond, and then pops out where all the single family homes are.
Also: While forcing this through may be beneficial, it would destroy trust between the community and the city, which will lead to further problems down the road. And if we can force issues like this past a community, who says it won't become the norm. This is one time I think a lengthy consultation process may be beneficial, if it starts ASAP. The city needs to lay out the options, and show the community how they will benefit, and how their landmarks will not be permanently ruined, indeed, can be improved by this construction. The community needs a chance to work with the city to ensure the best possible procedure is taken.
There are still 4 years until construction would possibly start, so time is on our side - for now. Ottawa needs to use transit to build community engagement and support, and I think we need to find a way to promote urban planning and design as an exciting force of change in this neighbourhood.
Show them how the linear park can be redesigned, show them things like the starry night bike path (http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor...Bike-Path.html), Superkilen in Denmark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superkilen), and other projects that have revitalized and brought together communities. If the parkway is going to be destroyed to make way for more greenspace, than Byron linear park makes more sense as something cool and novel than as another greenspace.
Jeff Leiper needs to take the initiative here and start this conversation, instead of following a NIMBY pattern of resistance. We can arrange it so that the entire city benefits; rather than giving in to unreasonable demands or completely shutting down anybody's concerns, we can walk a middle road of true democracy.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Luker

Lived on Breezehill North between Loretta and Gladstone from Nov 1996 - March 2014 and have never heard the O-train. I do hear the muffled sound of the Queensway at all times though.

Also for the record, my room faced east directly towards the tracks... Also, closer to the tracks then I am the 417 with its imposing sound barrier... What gives?

I don't know, either. The O-Train is pretty damn quiet, but people aren't rational.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Since when does the 'community' decide what's built? It's time we as a city learn to ignore these people and go with what's best for the city as a whole.

...

God. First Scott Street then this. I wonder if we shouldn't just expropriate the whole damn ward and kick all these whiny nuts out. Would make building up this city so much easier.

+eleventybillion

[waterloowarrior]

Here is revised station spacing based on some of the ideas suggested. Right now there is a 1.6 KM gap from Westboro station to Tunney's; this would reduce the distance between stations in the area to between 850-1000 metres. The station in the Rochester Field area would have potential to extend the Westboro commercial stretch to the west if combined with an appropriate rezoning plan.

[Kitchissippi]

It would also increase the appeal of Churchill Avenue as a perpendicular main street. Best of all, the stupid jog the #2 bus has to do to get to Westboro Station can be eliminated

[rocketphish]

Watson to talk light rail route with Baird

Matthew Pearson, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: November 26, 2014, Last Updated: November 26, 2014 6:48 PM EST

Mayor Jim Watson and Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird were set to meet Thursday to discuss the city’s light rail plans.

The meeting comes nearly a week after the National Capital Commission threw a wrench in the city’s plans, saying its directors believe the NCC-owned Rochester Field on Richmond Road in Westboro is a better option for light rail than along the Ottawa River, unless the city is prepared to dig a deep tunnel for the trains.

Watson told reporters Wednesday that he hoped the meeting with Baird, who as an Ottawa MP and senior minister for the National Capital Region oversees the NCC, would help to improve communications between the city and the federal government, whose decisions, the mayor says, often come as a surprise to the city.

In addition to the NCC announcement, Watson said he was given no notice last week of the decision to upgrade the Canada Science and Technology Museum before Heritage Minister Shelly Glover announced it will be closed until 2017 as part an $80.5-million overhaul. The mayor said then that he believed “we missed an opportunity to have a much more vibrant museum than what we’re going to have on St. Laurent Boulevard.”

He might learn Thursday whether such criticism rubbed Baird the wrong way.

Baird’s office has said his staff reached out to Watson’s staff over the weekend but that Watson could not meet. Watson said a Monday meeting would have conflicted with the city’s unveiling of a painting to commemorate Cpl. Nathan Cirillo, the soldier shot and killed last month at the National War Memorial. That left Thursday.

The mayor added he was not aware of city staff cancelling or postponing meetings with the NCC regarding light rail, but NCC spokesman Jean Wolff said in an email that, “there were higher level meetings scheduled in the first three weeks of November that were postponed or rescheduled to December.”

The NCC and city had agreed that while the city would not have final recommendations by January, it could provide an update and “was expecting to do,” Vivi Chi, the manager of transportation planning, said in a statement.

The two sides remains at odds over the 1.2-kilometre section of the proposed $980-million Richmond Underground line that would cross NCC land along the Sir John A. Macdonald Parkway. The city wants to run the line through a trench, 700 metres of which would be partly covered. The NCC board has said it would not approve the line unless it allowed unimpeded access to the Ottawa River shoreline and had a “minimal visual impact” on the parkway corridor landscape.

The city says it can’t afford the extra $300 million to $400 million it would cost for a tunnel along the river and doesn’t support surface rail along Richmond Road or the Byron Linear Park.

Watson said the city wants to lock down the proposed route in time to apply for federal funding sometime next year.

mpearson@ottawacitizen.com
Twitter.com/mpearson78

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-...ute-with-baird

[Kitchissippi]

If Richmond Road were reduced to two lanes, a simple box tunnel could be built beside it, the top of which could be used for hard landscaping elements for a pedestrian promenade and and a bike boulevard. There would be minimal greenspace lost, in fact it might even appear wider.

[rocketphish]

Cool the LRT rhetoric and take a hard look at the options

Randall Denley, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: November 26, 2014, Last Updated: November 26, 2014 4:08 PM EST

Ottawa Mayor Jim Watson is rewriting the book on how to finesse a big project with the federal government. First, insist that the National Capital Commission only has one choice when it comes to a route for the western LRT. Second, ignore the NCC’s rejection of your plan and go ahead anyway. Third, paint yourself into a corner so that there really are no other options. Fourth, blow your top when the federal side doesn’t cave in to first three phases of your plan.

And the mismanagement of this issue doesn’t stop there. Confronted with the unsurprising news that the NCC has not been persuaded by his unique approach, Watson is now kicking the problem upstairs to the NCC’s political boss, MP John Baird. To set the table for the requested meeting, Watson told the media, “I don’t understand what the political advantage of the federal Conservatives is to constantly fight the City of Ottawa’s transit plans.” He also promised to make the federal attitude an issue in the 2015 election. That’s not how you make allies.

Finally, Watson says the city’s plan to extend rail west, east and south is “a package” and the whole thing will fail if the city doesn’t get its way on the western route. In reality, there is nothing to stop the city from proceeding with easier parts of the LRT plan while it works out the rest.

Watson’s argument that spending more on a western solution will place the entire project outside the city’s budget is also wobbly. The $3 billion budget is simply a guesstimate. There is no money in hand from other governments and no firm cost estimates for any of this.

While Watson hasn’t earned many points for his style and approach on the LRT, the important question is whether he is right on the substance. Is a rail route that runs along the Sir John A. Macdonald Parkway really the best way to proceed?

It is frustratingly difficult to know. There is not yet any independent report that definitively settles the matter.

The NCC says that the city should be looking seriously at the cost and benefits of putting the LRT in a full-scale tunnel through the parkway. The city’s preferred solution is a trench and berm plan the city proposes for about two-thirds of the parkway route. City staff says the full tunnel is part of the environmental assessment they are now conducting. Given that the mayor has already rejected the full scale tunnel over cost, it is perhaps understandable why the NCC is skeptical.

The NCC also wants the city to consider using Rochester Field, NCC land south of the parkway. The city says this has already been studied and rejected. The Rochester Field plan would mean either an expensive tunnel or running rail on the surface along either Richmond or the Byron Linear Park, itself a former streetcar right of way. That would mean doing something unpopular in a politically active neighbourhood, or burying the line at greater cost. The city’s calculation has more to do with politics than it does with transit.

Now would be the time for Watson to cool the rhetoric and be open-minded about studying both the NCC’s preferred options. If the plan the mayor champions is the best, then his point will be proven. If not, he’s going to have to consider another way.

The problem remains that the city doesn’t own the parkway land and it has no easy way to get it. Right now, the city’s plan consists primarily of hoping that Justin Trudeau gets elected and that he likes a railway near the river.

It is imperative for Ottawans to find a way to extend light rail west, both for the value it will bring, and to avoid looking like the idiots with a transit line to nowhere. The mayor’s approach is not helping.

Randall Denley is a strategic communications consultant and former Ontario PC candidate. Contact him at randalldenley1@gmail.com

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/col...at-the-options

[Dado]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

If Richmond Road were reduced to two lanes, a simple box tunnel could be built beside it, the top of which could be used for hard landscaping elements for a pedestrian promenade and and a bike boulevard. There would be minimal greenspace lost, in fact it might even appear wider.

You know what really really gets me about this entire Richmond Rd business?

This:

Table 1- Road of Right-of-Way Protection

Or more precisely:

Road: Richmond
From: Ottawa River Parkway
To: Golden
ROW to be Protected: 26 Note: Subject to unequal widening: north side 7.5 m, south side 18.5 m
Classification: arterial
Sector: urban

So what we still have on the books is RoW protection to widen Richmond Rd along the entire area in question out to 4 lanes and then some. Heck, that's enough for 4 travel lanes, a centre left turn lane, full 2.0 m bike lanes and widened sidewalks on both sides. The current Richmond RoW is 15 m, or 7.5 m either side of the centreline, hence that "unequal widening" bit tells us that it is slated to be widened into the very Byron tramway park that everyone is so intent on "saving" from LRT.

I have tried to explain this to the various nimby parties but it just goes in one ear and out the other. They seem to think that because an earlier EA process got stopped that's the end of it, but that's not the case.

What LRT "in the open" would do, be it in a shallow trench or on the surface, is permanently short circuit virtually any ability to widen Richmond Rd.

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

There is a sound wall being built behind the homes on Sawmill Private right now.

I think the reason for this is that there is some kind of vibration/noise caused when the trains pass through the new switches for the passing tracks.

Regarding the welded/continuous rails... these weren't installed to reduce noise; they were installed because it was required to increase train speeds to reach 15 minute frequency. Before this was done, the O-Train ran at 20 minute frequency.

I live a ten minute walk from Greenboro, with a room facing away from the tracks, and if I lie in bed I can hear the train cross the Walkley Diamond. If the window is open, I can hear the bell ring as it pulls into Greenboro. Sound travels in unusual ways, but the switches and idling train are the likely reasons for a sound wall.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Since when does the 'community' decide what's built? .

At least since they elected a mayor who lives on the west side.

[MoreTrains]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

If Richmond Road were reduced to two lanes, a simple box tunnel could be built beside it, the top of which could be used for hard landscaping elements for a pedestrian promenade and and a bike boulevard. There would be minimal greenspace lost, in fact it might even appear wider.

Impossible. The route running throught the middle of the park is the only one we should have... although I love this idea because it is simple, utilitarian and provides much better use of the area in terms of walkabiliy/bikeability.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by acottawa

At least since they elected a mayor who lives on the west side.

I highly doubt the mayor's location of residence has anything to do this issue. He's never at home, and he's really associated with the south inner city (Glebe/OOS) since that's where he was first elected and where all his friends and family live.

The mayor is the one 'good guy' in all this IMO. someone who's trying to get this built at a low cost in a way that satisfies most. All the other parties with their hands in this are being unreasonable with expensive demands.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

Here is revised station spacing based on some of the ideas suggested. Right now there is a 1.6 KM gap from Westboro station to Tunney's; this would reduce the distance between stations in the area to between 850-1000 metres. The station in the Rochester Field area would have potential to extend the Westboro commercial stretch to the west if combined with an appropriate rezoning plan.

Beautiful. Perfect balance of station spacing--adequate local access and decently fast (unlike say, the Bloor-Danforth subway in Toronto, which has stations way too frequently which makes it ungodly slow for any sort of long distance trips).

A shallow cut and cover through the park might actually be cheaper than the Richmond Underground route. That plan had a 1.6km full bored tunnel between Lincoln Fields and Cleary Ave, and then a 700 metre covered trench from Cleary Ave to Skead Street. So it already had 2.3km of burying. Turns out that the whole distance from LF to Rochester Field along Richmond is 2.4km, so only an extra 100m has to buried! If we downgraded that original 1.6km bored tunnel to cut and cover too, that might more than offset the cost of burying those extra 100 metres. Those offsets could then be used to fund that extra station.

[1overcosc]

.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I highly doubt the mayor's location of residence has anything to do this issue. He's never at home, and he's really associated with the south inner city (Glebe/OOS) since that's where he was first elected and where all his friends and family live.

The mayor is the one 'good guy' in all this IMO. someone who's trying to get this built at a low cost in a way that satisfies most. All the other parties with their hands in this are being unreasonable with expensive demands.

I'm not so charitable. Even if he doesn't give a hoot, I'll bet his former assistant and now-councillor for the ward, Mark Taylor, does.

The section of the tramway park near where he lives (south of New Orchard roughly) is pretty devoid of tree cover on the north/Richmond side. It's not at all like the well-treed park from Cleary to Westboro.

There's little reason the segment from Woodroffe to New Orchard should be buried *under* Richmond at high cost versus being built in a shallow cutting to the immediate south of Richmond.

And just where do people think all the traffic will be diverted to while Richmond is torn up to lay box culverts for LRT? It's either going to Byron or it's going onto the tramway park itself.

I get the sense that when these tunnels are proposed by people that they somehow think they'll be deep tunnels dug by equipment like that being used downtown when that's just not the case.

[rocketphish]

Baird, Watson agree to work together on light rail

Matthew Pearson, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: November 27, 2014, Last Updated: November 27, 2014 12:40 PM EST

Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird and Mayor Jim Watson are pledging to “work constructively” to solve the impasse between the city and the National Capital Commission over the western expansion of light rail.

“Both the Government of Canada and the City of Ottawa have committed to taking the next 100 days to continue to work constructively along with the NCC toward a solution on this transit issue,” the pair said in a statement released Thursday.

“Moving forward, we have agreed to stay in close contact, meet on a more regular basis on a range of regional issues, and maintain a positive dialogue as we work together for the betterment of our great Capital.”

The mayor met Baird, an Ottawa MP and the federal minister responsible for the NCC, at the minister’s office inside the Lester B. Pearson building on Sussex Drive Thursday morning.

Watson told reporters Wednesday that he hoped the meeting would help to improve communications between the city and the federal government, whose decisions, the mayor says, often come as a surprise to the city.

At the heart of the issue is the 1.2-kilometre section of the proposed $980-million Richmond Underground line that would cross NCC land along the Sir John A. Macdonald Parkway.

The city wants to run the line through a trench, 700 metres of which would be partly covered. The NCC board has said it would not approve the line unless it allowed unimpeded access to the Ottawa River shoreline and had a “minimal visual impact” on the parkway corridor landscape.

The city says it can’t afford the extra $300 million to $400 million it would cost for a tunnel along the river and doesn’t support surface rail along Richmond Road or the Byron Linear Park.

Watson and Baird’s meeting comes nearly a week after the NCC announced its board of directors believe the NCC-owned Rochester Field on Richmond Road in Westboro is a better option for light rail than along the Ottawa River, unless the city is prepared to dig a deep tunnel for the trains.

Watson has said the city wants to lock down the proposed route in time to apply for federal funding sometime next year.

mpearson@ottawacitizen.com
Twitter.com/mpearson78

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-...-on-light-rail

[rocketphish]

"The city says it can’t afford the extra $300 million to $400 million it would cost for a tunnel along the river and doesn’t support surface rail along Richmond Road or the Byron Linear Park."

I too would like the City to address the other obvious option that they are trying to keep quiet about... tunneling under Richmond Rd. From a construction perspective, you couldn't ask for a more convenient routing, as traffic could easily be detoured onto Byron for the duration of the cut-and-cover project, for almost the entire length of the dig from Rochester field to Richardson Ave. Sure, businesses and residences to the north of Richmond would have to be accommodated, but it doesn't get much easier than this. If Vancouver could bury the Canada Line under the length of Cambie St. without the world coming to an end, we can do this. This routing allows for a greater catchment area for the stations and more options for station placement. Now all we need is for John Baird to offer up the extra funds to accomplish this.

[Luker]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

"The city says it can’t afford the extra $300 million to $400 million it would cost for a tunnel along the river and doesn’t support surface rail along Richmond Road or the Byron Linear Park."

I too would like the City to address the other obvious option that they are trying to keep quiet about... tunneling under Richmond Rd. From a construction perspective, you couldn't ask for a more convenient routing, as traffic could easily be detoured onto Byron for the duration of the cut-and-cover project, for almost the entire length of the dig from Rochester field to Richardson Ave. Sure, businesses and residences to the north of Richmond would have to be accommodated, but it doesn't get much easier than this. If Vancouver could bury the Canada Line under the length of Cambie St. without the world coming to an end, we can do this. This routing allows for a greater catchment area for the stations and more options for station placement. Now all we need is for John Baird to offer up the extra funds to accomplish this.

My thoughts exactly throughout this whole debacle...

[S-Man]

I live a ten minute walk from Greenboro, with a room facing away from the tracks, and if I lie in bed I can hear the train cross the Walkley Diamond. If the window is open, I can hear the bell ring as it pulls into Greenboro. Sound travels in unusual ways, but the switches and idling train are the likely reasons for a sound wall.

I lived probably less than 50 metres from the O-Train once (where it goes through the trench) and never heard it, even with windows open at night. That said, sound does travel in strange ways depending on where you are.

This Western LRT thing is exhausting. Denley has a point when he says a Byron-Richmond link would be politically unpopular. It would be hugely politically unpopular, despite serving the most residents. I don't trust the NCC on anything, but that doesn't mean I trust Watson either.

Where does the city go from here? It can't say 'Screw it' and go home on this issue.