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  #101  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2019, 4:55 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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I think it's BS that TSB is not involved. That's the authority I can trust to make real recommendations to improve safety.

If there's something wrong with DD buses or how they are used in Ottawa, I trust TSB to report that than OC Transpo.
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  #102  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2019, 6:28 AM
roger1818 roger1818 is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
I think it's BS that TSB is not involved. That's the authority I can trust to make real recommendations to improve safety.

If there's something wrong with DD buses or how they are used in Ottawa, I trust TSB to report that than OC Transpo.
Umm. From yesterday’s news: TSB to join investigation into fatal Ottawa bus crash
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  #103  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2019, 8:49 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Missed that. Good.
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  #104  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2019, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by bradnixon View Post
Almost all trips on route 6 during the day on weekends are double deckers.
Most of the 6 route is on regular streets as Uhuniau has mentioned already and thats during the summer months. Not as many during the winter months though.
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  #105  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2019, 10:34 AM
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Looks like these double deckers are not as safe as Manconi been telling us.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...d-and-are-safe

I'm glad this retired bus driver said this becuase this is exactly what I suggested about what should have been done with the bus driver who crashed the double decker bus.

https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/co...-transpo-crash
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  #106  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2019, 2:55 PM
bradnixon bradnixon is offline
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Originally Posted by OtrainUser View Post
I only see 1, route 293 double deckers in the afternoon and never in the morning, all 98's is an exaggeration maybe a few like the 97, only the 6 uses them more from what i have seen and its only goes to 3 S/E transitway stations so thats not a problem.

Point is there is no need to make modifications to stations that will be eventually be demolished and replaced with something else. Im very sure the city of Ottawa is thinking the exact same way.
Lots of peak period trips on the 98 are double deckers, maybe not so many mid-day.

I'm not sure why the fact that the 6 only goes to 3 stations means that nothing needs to be done- it only takes 1 to potentially cause an incident.

I was on a 98 this morning and I noticed that the support pillar that holds up the Trillium line overpass also seems to be very close to the road. There are jersey barriers to prevent a bus from going off into the ditch but they are not close enough to the road to prevent a bus from potentially hitting this abutment. I believe this hazard is likely the reason that the speed limit between Heron and Walkley has been reduced to 70 from 90.

See overhead view here: https://www.google.com/maps/@45.3741.../data=!3m1!1e3
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  #107  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2019, 3:30 PM
roger1818 roger1818 is offline
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Originally Posted by bradnixon View Post
I was on a 98 this morning and I noticed that the support pillar that holds up the Trillium line overpass also seems to be very close to the road. There are jersey barriers to prevent a bus from going off into the ditch but they are not close enough to the road to prevent a bus from potentially hitting this abutment.

See overhead view here: https://www.google.com/maps/@45.3741.../data=!3m1!1e3
The one you showed is on the inside corner and thus less likely to be of concern (though the risk isn't zero). It is hard to tell with Google, but the one on the outside corner (in the opposite direction) seems to be better protected by the jersey barriers.

Regardless, I believe this overpass will be replaced as part of the Elwood diamond grade separation in Stage 2, and it could be fixed at that time.

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I believe this hazard is likely the reason that the speed limit between Heron and Walkley has been reduced to 70 from 90.
That is a pretty sharp corner, especially for a double decker bus, and it doesn't appear to be significantly superelevated. I suspect it is less to do with the abutment and more to do with the curve itself.
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  #108  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2019, 7:32 AM
Catenary Catenary is offline
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Originally Posted by bradnixon View Post
Lots of peak period trips on the 98 are double deckers, maybe not so many mid-day.

I'm not sure why the fact that the 6 only goes to 3 stations means that nothing needs to be done- it only takes 1 to potentially cause an incident.

I was on a 98 this morning and I noticed that the support pillar that holds up the Trillium line overpass also seems to be very close to the road. There are jersey barriers to prevent a bus from going off into the ditch but they are not close enough to the road to prevent a bus from potentially hitting this abutment. I believe this hazard is likely the reason that the speed limit between Heron and Walkley has been reduced to 70 from 90.

See overhead view here: https://www.google.com/maps/@45.3741.../data=!3m1!1e3
I believe you are correct - in addition to the reduced speeds, there are black and yellow reflective signs overhead on the supports, "DO NOT DRIVE ON PAVED SHOULDER" signs, and significant pavement markings indicating the centre of the lane, all installed in the past year or so.
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  #109  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2019, 1:44 PM
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Originally Posted by eltodesukane View Post
Some are even too low for single decker buses.
Looking at that picture, the station suffered significantly more damage. Either that awning wasn't built as well, the regular buses are much stronger or the old high floor buses were better built.

Important to note that they were no deaths, only minor injuries in 2003. If it wasn't for the awning (then and now), passengers on the platform might have been hit.

In my view, the double decker-buses are the danger, not the awnings. My two recommendations would be; get rid of those death trap vehicles, place jersey barriers to divert buses from the platform in case this happens again and make sure that every station has a centre median high enough and strong enough to prevent buses from being diverted by the jersey barriers towards oncoming traffic.
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  #110  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2019, 3:48 PM
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Looking at that picture, the station suffered significantly more damage. Either that awning wasn't built as well, the regular buses are much stronger or the old high floor buses were better built.

Important to note that they were no deaths, only minor injuries in 2003. If it wasn't for the awning (then and now), passengers on the platform might have been hit.

In my view, the double decker-buses are the danger, not the awnings. My two recommendations would be; get rid of those death trap vehicles, place jersey barriers to divert buses from the platform in case this happens again and make sure that every station has a centre median high enough and strong enough to prevent buses from being diverted by the jersey barriers towards oncoming traffic.
Agree with this 100 percent
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  #111  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2019, 8:56 PM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Looking at that picture, the station suffered significantly more damage. Either that awning wasn't built as well, the regular buses are much stronger or the old high floor buses were better built.

Important to note that they were no deaths, only minor injuries in 2003. If it wasn't for the awning (then and now), passengers on the platform might have been hit.

In my view, the double decker-buses are the danger, not the awnings. My two recommendations would be; get rid of those death trap vehicles, place jersey barriers to divert buses from the platform in case this happens again and make sure that every station has a centre median high enough and strong enough to prevent buses from being diverted by the jersey barriers towards oncoming traffic.
Why is it that in Ottawa they are a problem, but other places like Victoria, they are great?
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  #112  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2019, 9:14 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
Why is it that in Ottawa they are a problem, but other places like Victoria, they are great?
Speed for one. In most cities these are used in urban streets, Ottawa uses them on transitways where speeds are 80kph (and many drivers speed).

We will have to wait for the coroner’s report for the specifics, but it sure seems there are cultural problems within OCTranspo in terms of prioritizing safety in designing infrastructure, screening drivers, etc.
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  #113  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2019, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Speed for one. In most cities these are used in urban streets, Ottawa uses them on transitways where speeds are 80kph (and many drivers speed).

We will have to wait for the coroner’s report for the specifics, but it sure seems there are cultural problems within OCTranspo in terms of prioritizing safety in designing infrastructure, screening drivers, etc.
Victoria uses them on Highway 1, which when I was there was at least at 80km/hr, if not 100 km/hr.
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  #114  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2019, 1:36 AM
roger1818 roger1818 is offline
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Why is it that in Ottawa they are a problem, but other places like Victoria, they are great?
Weather for one. Victoria rarely gets snow. They also no longer have any active railways.
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  #115  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2019, 3:49 AM
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
Why is it that in Ottawa they are a problem, but other places like Victoria, they are great?
They are just as unsafe in Ottawa as they are in Victoria, or the GTA or anywhere else. If they get into a major accident, the chances of injuries or death are much higher than a regular or articulated city bus. We were unfortunate enough to have two major accidents. This could be because of speed, the nature of our operation, weather, or possibly OC Transpo's and the City negligence or a combination of multiple factors. Could also be bad luck.

The Feds also hold responsibility for the lack of action on the TSB's recommendations after the 2013 crash.
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  #116  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2019, 3:52 AM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
They are just as unsafe in Ottawa as they are in Victoria, or the GTA or anywhere else. If they get into a major accident, the chances of injuries or death are much higher than a regular or articulated city bus. We were unfortunate enough to have two major accidents. This could be because of speed, the nature of our operation, weather, or possibly OC Transpo's and the City negligence or a combination of multiple factors. Could also be bad luck.

The Feds also hold responsibility for the lack of action on the TSB's recommendations after the 2013 crash.
That is likely the most common reason.
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  #117  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2019, 4:07 AM
roger1818 roger1818 is offline
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
They are just as unsafe in Ottawa as they are in Victoria, or the GTA or anywhere else. If they get into a major accident, the chances of injuries or death are much higher than a regular or articulated city bus. We were unfortunate enough to have two major accidents. This could be because of speed, the nature of our operation, weather, or possibly OC Transpo's and the City negligence or a combination of multiple factors. Could also be bad luck.
Or that we have more of them than anyone else in Canada. All of BC Transit only has a total 69 double decker buses (though most are likely in Victoria). I’m not sure but most of them are likely used at low speeds. Where here in Ottawa most are used at high speeds.

My thought is rather than get rid of them, install goveners that prevent them from going over 50 km/h (or make it a criminal offence to drive one at that speed with anyone on the upper level ).
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  #118  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2019, 4:21 AM
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Our fleet is much larger than BC's. GO Transit's might be bigger. I wasn't able to find any recent numbers though so I can't confirm.

Last edited by J.OT13; Jan 20, 2019 at 4:38 AM.
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  #119  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2019, 9:39 AM
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Double decker buses are not designed for rapid transit, which is the mode most of them are used in Ottawa. They're meant for slow moving trafic in high density neighborhoods, such as the place they originate from (London). Ottawa's need for them stems from the ocean of buses going through downtown at rush hour and its related chocking and lack of space... They can be relegated to normal downtown transit once the Confed line is in full swing.
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  #120  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2019, 10:35 AM
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Our fleet is much larger than BC's. GO Transit's might be bigger. I wasn't able to find any recent numbers though so I can't confirm.
GO Transit has 198 double deckers.
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