Atlantic Highways Thread

[L'homard]

I'm with you.

[Bishop2047]

[QUOTE=J81;8418805]I cant for the life of me understand why people in this province think that highway 11 needs to be a fully divided interstate level highway. It’s ludicrous. We are flat broke. Highways generate zero dollars because we refuse to toll them. Does the road need some work?? Absolutely! A few long passing lanes here and there. Even add a lane in both directions between bouctouche and Cocagne. But fully dividing the highway is nonsense. Good on higgs for cancelling this project.

There are many examples in North America where communities much larger then the 2 I mentioned are connected by secondary highways similar to rte 11. And many of them are 2 lanes each direction and not controlled access highways. Ive been on many of them and they work just fine![/QUOTE

They base it entirely on numbers and once met the road gets twinned.

The issue is that they should take a more object look at needs rather than flat numbers.

[J81]

Things rarely get looked at objectively before theyre acted upon in NB. Im just fed up with watching our government squander boat loads of money on highways a province of 750000 doesnt need. Everytime i go to Shediac now my head just about explodes at the wasted money on that new fancy interchange.

[Dengler Avenue]

Was twinning of TCH throughout New Brunswick unnecessary too then?

[J81]

Largely yes!

[OUIR@random]

1. People who believe that Highway 2 (Trans-Canada) in our province doesn't need to be a four lane highway are oblivious and should go back under their rock. Because we are in New Brunswick doesn't mean we are meant to be less than. I understand that we are in a dire financial situation in this province, but there are many areas and services where cuts are needed, but why is that only certain areas of the province are victims of these cuts? Just raise sales tax to 18% and we will all pay and not just certain people, groups or areas? Put tolls at the entrances of the province, NS, PEI and QC, they all say that we a drive-by province, then pay up people.

2. The highway 11 expansion between the North and the South is not only meant for the people of Bouctouche, Shediac, Kent county, it's for all the traffic (people), goods
& products, going and coming on the eastern coast from the Acadian Peninsula, Bathurst and Miramichi; from Shediac to Bouctouche it is justified. Higgs is wrong in stopping this, it was only stopped because it's a French and Liberal riding, so it was easy for him. Period. It is the busiest 2 lane highway in the province. People love to take from others and to say (others-them) don't need this or that when it doesn't affect them. If you don't need to drive on this highway 11 or live in around Moncton, of course you don't give a $hit about highway 11! Highways are a need, a new arena wasn't, so let's not start with that.

There are many things in our our region that we can't afford...

Note: The Trans-Canada should be 4 lanes all across Canada.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by J81

Largely yes!

Couldn't disagree with you more.

I tend to be a fiscally conscious conservative, but even people such as myself realize the importance of divided highways in speeding interurban commerce, promoting road safety and even as an act of nation building.

There are sections of the TCH in NB that feel "unbusy", such as the segment between Havelock and the Canaan River, but it should be remembered that the highway doesn't exist for people in these two communities, it exists to allow easy commercial transport between Moncton/Halifax/PEI and the major population centres of central Canada. This is the reason why that segment of the TCH is twinned!

Did you know that current regulations prevent multi unit semis (road trains) from operating on non dual carriageways? Even now, road trains are not allowed on that short segment of the 185 in Quebec on their way to the Maritimes. These trucks have to decouple before entering the non divided portion of the highway and then individually ferry their trailers onto the next divided segment. There is a tremendous cost to doing this (I remember reading somewhere this is over $100M per year), and this is borne by the consumer on the other side of the non divided highway. Goods produced in the Maritimes are a little less economically competitive because of this requirement.

There are environmental factors in Atlantic Canada which can make road travel challenging in the winter time, especially our frequent snow storms. Divided highways are undeniably safer than their non divided cousins. The worst type of accidents are head on collisions (especially offset head on collisions). Divided highways (especially with wide medians) remove this peril. As a physician who as part of his daily work helps to manage trauma cases from the ER, I can absolutely 100% guarantee you that the volume of serious trauma from high velocity MVAs has decreased dramatically around greater Moncton since the TCH has been twinned. There is a cost to this carnage. A seriously injured patient requiring several weeks in the ICU and numerous operative interventions may cost the health care system $2-3 million in terms of immediate care, and if there is serious long term disability, maybe another $10M for long term care. Regardless of whether this cost is born by the health care system or by private insurance, the cost is eventually born by you (increased taxes or increased insurance premiums). That $13M spent on caring for the victim of the above hypothetical MVA could instead have been spent on maybe 5 km of dual carriageway. Which is the better investment???

In terms of nation building, a divided highway system helps to bind the country (and the region) together. Travel is easier and safer. Commerce is expedited and tourism is easier to promote. Taxes from these activities will increase, helping to pay for the cost of building and maintaining the roadway. The more divided highways the better!!!

Having said this though, one should only build divided highways where they make sense. This includes between major national and regional cities, also serving larger suburban and exurban commuter watersheds and where commercial truck activity justifies it. I do not support dividing route 11 beyond Bouctouche, but I do think a valid case can be made for dividing the highway at least as far as Bouctouche (commuter watershed, tourism and winter travel conditions).

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by OUIR@random

1. People who believe that Highway 2 (Trans-Canada) in our province doesn't need to be a four lane highway are oblivious and should go back under their rock. Because we are in New Brunswick doesn't mean we are meant to be less than.

I don't know where J81 lives, but I betcha he doesn't remember what it used to be like travelling between Moncton and Freddy on the old TCH (before it was twinned), or on the shortcut through Coles Island.

Also can you imagine the chaos on the 11/15 to Shediac (the Shediac Four Lane) if it wasn't divided!!! That road is busier than the TCH!!!! That fancy new 11/15 interchange at Shediac may be a tad overbuilt, but it's predecessor was downright dangerous (especially that short on ramp onto the southbound rte 11 exit lane onto the 15 at Shediac) - pure suicide!!!

[Dengler Avenue]

Oh yea I read about B trains having to decouple on Route 185.

That’s just sad...

On another note, this probably explains why most cross-Canada trucks would rather go through the states instead of using TCH through Central Canada.

[OUIR@random]

I could not agree more with MonctonRad, so well said!

[MonctonianSentinel01]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Couldn't disagree with you more.

I tend to be a fiscally conscious conservative, but even people such as myself realize the importance of divided highways in speeding interurban commerce, promoting road safety and even as an act of nation building.

There are sections of the TCH in NB that feel "unbusy", such as the segment between Havelock and the Canaan River, but it should be remembered that the highway doesn't exist for people in these two communities, it exists to allow easy commercial transport between Moncton/Halifax/PEI and the major population centres of central Canada. This is the reason why that segment of the TCH is twinned!

Did you know that current regulations prevent multi unit semis (road trains) from operating on non dual carriageways? Even now, road trains are not allowed on that short segment of the 185 in Quebec on their way to the Maritimes. These trucks have to decouple before entering the non divided portion of the highway and then individually ferry their trailers onto the next divided segment. There is a tremendous cost to doing this (I remember reading somewhere this is over $100M per year), and this is borne by the consumer on the other side of the non divided highway. Goods produced in the Maritimes are a little less economically competitive because of this requirement.

There are environmental factors in Atlantic Canada which can make road travel challenging in the winter time, especially our frequent snow storms. Divided highways are undeniably safer than their non divided cousins. The worst type of accidents are head on collisions (especially offset head on collisions). Divided highways (especially with wide medians) remove this peril. As a physician who as part of his daily work helps to manage trauma cases from the ER, I can absolutely 100% guarantee you that the volume of serious trauma from high velocity MVAs has decreased dramatically around greater Moncton since the TCH has been twinned. There is a cost to this carnage. A seriously injured patient requiring several weeks in the ICU and numerous operative interventions may cost the health care system $2-3 million in terms of immediate care, and if there is serious long term disability, maybe another $10M for long term care. Regardless of whether this cost is born by the health care system or by private insurance, the cost is eventually born by you (increased taxes or increased insurance premiums). That $13M spent on caring for the victim of the above hypothetical MVA could instead have been spent on maybe 5 km of dual carriageway. Which is the better investment???

In terms of nation building, a divided highway system helps to bind the country (and the region) together. Travel is easier and safer. Commerce is expedited and tourism is easier to promote. Taxes from these activities will increase, helping to pay for the cost of building and maintaining the roadway. The more divided highways the better!!!

Having said this though, one should only build divided highways where they make sense. This includes between major national and regional cities, also serving larger suburban and exurban commuter watersheds and where commercial truck activity justifies it. I do not support dividing route 11 beyond Bouctouche, but I do think a valid case can be made for dividing the highway at least as far as Bouctouche (commuter watershed, tourism and winter travel conditions).

Well said.

[josh_cat_eyes]

One thing that bugs me about the highways in the maritimes is that the feds are committing all this money to Route 11 for example but in PEI, the Charlottetown bypass still isn’t divided with overpasses, and between days corner (the turn off to Wellington) and Kensington going by Summerside, route 2 has average daily traffic of between 15,000 & 20,000 cars, well in excess of the amount usually required to trigger twinning on the mainland.

[MonctonianSentinel01]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Did you know that current regulations prevent multi unit semis (road trains) from operating on non dual carriageways? Even now, road trains are not allowed on that short segment of the 185 in Quebec on their way to the Maritimes. These trucks have to decouple before entering the non divided portion of the highway and then individually ferry their trailers onto the next divided segment. There is a tremendous cost to doing this (I remember reading somewhere this is over $100M per year), and this is borne by the consumer on the other side of the non divided highway. Goods produced in the Maritimes are a little less economically competitive because of this requirement.:

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Oh yea I read about B trains having to decouple on Route 185.

That’s just sad...

On another note, this probably explains why most cross-Canada trucks would rather go through the states instead of using TCH through Central Canada.

How about this? As someone who works on trains, how about they put their containers/trailers on trains rather than be a idiot and trying to reinvent the wheel for the road? I can't see how it is safe for a truck carrying 2 or more trailers to be on the highway. Good luck trying trying to pass one of those on a windy day (for the nervous driver). It's a complete contradiction to dual divide highways for safety and then allow these monstrosities on the road. Leave the trains to the railroad, it's still the most reliable and safest way to move large volumes of freight.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by MonctonianSentinel01

How about this? As someone who works on trains, how about they put their containers/trailers on trains rather than be a idiot and trying to reinvent the wheel for the road? I can't see how it is safe for a truck carrying 2 or more trailers to be on the highway. Good luck trying trying to pass one of those on a windy day (for the nervous driver). It's a complete contradiction to dual divide highways for safety and then allow these monstrosities on the road. Leave the trains to the railroad, it's still the most reliable and safest way to move large volumes of freight.

I heard the rail tracks are largely abandoned in the Maritimes though.

[MonctonianSentinel01]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I heard the rail tracks are largely abandoned in the Maritimes though.

Back in the day you used to see more trains but back in the 90's they were trying to get rid of more train crews to turn a bigger profit. The company has always been under a lot of pressure by it's shareholders to make more and more money. Proudly CN is North America's leading railway when it comes to operation ratio. The operating ratio shows the efficiency of a company's management by comparing operating expense to net sales and it's ability to turn a profit. That's why you see less trains today because they are consolidated into mega trains. In the maritimes they run them 14,000 feet, which is 2.65 miles long and 4.26 kilometres. In other parts of Canada they run them 16,000 feet which is 3.03 miles and 4.87 kilometres. After WW2 CN had to sell off many of it's branches that didn't make much profit. By running supplies to the ports the railway was very busy. It took a MASSIVE toll on the railways infrastructure. Extra trains were being run around the clock non stop. To pay for all of the repairs that it took on during the war it had to sell off many branches to pay for the ones that were still very profitable. Then in the 70's and 80's dual highways were starting to get more common which trucking did take some customers away from the railway. To this day though the mainlines (the main highways) are still in place. They run from Edmundston to Moncton and then to Truro to Halifax. They also run from Moncton to Saint john. Also from Moncton to Miramichi to Bathurst to Campbellton to Quebec. In Nova Scotia after Truro there is a short line that goes to Port Hawkesbury. New Brunswick Southern is a short line that runs west of Saint John and into the Maine. By rail to major cities and then trucking to other outlaying areas is a better way to go.

In this map NBEC(New Brunswick East Coast) is now CN. They let it go but bought it back. Van Buren B&C is now Maine and New Brunswick Southern Railway bought by Irving when they bought NBS and a Maine railway and merged them. Salem and Hillsborough has been abandoned and CN used to run down there but when the Gypsum mine in Hillsborough closed there was no freight for the railways to move and they abandoned the line. NBSR and CN lines are still the same.

https://www.traingeek.ca/wp/trains/places/nb/

Here is the CN mainline map (remember no spurs or customer tracks, just the rail "highways")

https://www.cn.ca/en/our-services/maps-and-network/

Here is way the New Brunswick mainline map used to look like a long time ago.

https://lib.unb.ca/archives/finding/...b_railway.html

[Marty_Mcfly]

Originally Posted by josh_cat_eyes

One thing that bugs me about the highways in the maritimes is that the feds are committing all this money to Route 11 for example but in PEI, the Charlottetown bypass still isn’t divided with overpasses, and between days corner (the turn off to Wellington) and Kensington going by Summerside, route 2 has average daily traffic of between 15,000 & 20,000 cars, well in excess of the amount usually required to trigger twinning on the mainland.

I was never a fan of the "Charlottetown bypass". It felt more like a high-capacity parkway than a proper highway. The lower speeds and traffic lights sort of do that. It should in all honesty be a controlled-access highway with proper off and on ramps.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Marty_Mcfly

I was never a fan of the "Charlottetown bypass". It felt more like a high-capacity parkway than a proper highway. The lower speeds and traffic lights sort of do that. It should in all honesty be a controlled-access highway with proper off and on ramps.

I agree, but it would cost $100M to fix (at least), and this is before considering westward extension to the (currently being constructed) Cornwall bypass.

That's a big pill to swallow for a small province without any interprovincial through traffic to speak of (to help justify the expense).

If it were up to me, I would connect the bypass through to Cornwall, and four lane it (with a median) as far as St. Peter's Road. A real interchange at the intersection with route 2 might be possible, but otherwise, the signalized intersections might have to remain.

[L'homard]

Re Highway 11, it kinda makes you wonder, given the argument this needs to be twinned for trucks, what would have happened had we given the $1 billion cost of the project to the railway instead of to the trucking industry.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by L'homard

Re Highway 11, it kinda makes you wonder, given the argument this needs to be twinned for trucks, what would have happened had we given the $1 billion cost of the project to the railway instead of to the trucking industry.

Blame the feds for being short-sighted and privatizing railway back in the days. Otherwise, in the denser area of Canada, we really would have seen some upstar rail transit, like that in Europe.

[J81]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Couldn't disagree with you more.

I tend to be a fiscally conscious conservative, but even people such as myself realize the importance of divided highways in speeding interurban commerce, promoting road safety and even as an act of nation building.

There are sections of the TCH in NB that feel "unbusy", such as the segment between Havelock and the Canaan River, but it should be remembered that the highway doesn't exist for people in these two communities, it exists to allow easy commercial transport between Moncton/Halifax/PEI and the major population centres of central Canada. This is the reason why that segment of the TCH is twinned!

Did you know that current regulations prevent multi unit semis (road trains) from operating on non dual carriageways? Even now, road trains are not allowed on that short segment of the 185 in Quebec on their way to the Maritimes. These trucks have to decouple before entering the non divided portion of the highway and then individually ferry their trailers onto the next divided segment. There is a tremendous cost to doing this (I remember reading somewhere this is over $100M per year), and this is borne by the consumer on the other side of the non divided highway. Goods produced in the Maritimes are a little less economically competitive because of this requirement.

There are environmental factors in Atlantic Canada which can make road travel challenging in the winter time, especially our frequent snow storms. Divided highways are undeniably safer than their non divided cousins. The worst type of accidents are head on collisions (especially offset head on collisions). Divided highways (especially with wide medians) remove this peril. As a physician who as part of his daily work helps to manage trauma cases from the ER, I can absolutely 100% guarantee you that the volume of serious trauma from high velocity MVAs has decreased dramatically around greater Moncton since the TCH has been twinned. There is a cost to this carnage. A seriously injured patient requiring several weeks in the ICU and numerous operative interventions may cost the health care system $2-3 million in terms of immediate care, and if there is serious long term disability, maybe another $10M for long term care. Regardless of whether this cost is born by the health care system or by private insurance, the cost is eventually born by you (increased taxes or increased insurance premiums). That $13M spent on caring for the victim of the above hypothetical MVA could instead have been spent on maybe 5 km of dual carriageway. Which is the better investment???

In terms of nation building, a divided highway system helps to bind the country (and the region) together. Travel is easier and safer. Commerce is expedited and tourism is easier to promote. Taxes from these activities will increase, helping to pay for the cost of building and maintaining the roadway. The more divided highways the better!!!

Having said this though, one should only build divided highways where they make sense. This includes between major national and regional cities, also serving larger suburban and exurban commuter watersheds and where commercial truck activity justifies it. I do not support dividing route 11 beyond Bouctouche, but I do think a valid case can be made for dividing the highway at least as far as Bouctouche (commuter watershed, tourism and winter travel conditions).

I know all about trucking in Atlantic Canada. I did it for years. The highway is nice but it isnt busy for much of the way. I dont feel it has done anything for the small communities along the old route where you had small mom and pop gas stations and diners and antique stores all along the way. Those are all gone. There is nothing along the route to entice people driving through to stop and spend money in the provice. Ive lived in Ontario for the last year and people always tell me NB was nice while they were driving through it on the way to PEI or NS.

Highways can be effective without being controlled access. I just think that for most of route 2 north of Fredericton an interstate calibre highway wasn’t necessary. Just speaking from my experience traveling up and down that road multiple times per week.