2010 Census Discussion Thread...

[phxSUNSfan]

Originally Posted by Don B.

^ Ahhh, but the difference between the pre-census estimates and the actual count was one of the highest in Arizona, if not the highest amongst major cities. For example, Nevada also had a nasty recession after booming in the mid-2000s. They also have lots of immigrants and Hispanics. Yet, their census counts were much closer to the pre-census estimates.

What is the only real difference between the two states? Nevada's majority didn't go nuts over immigration and pass laws that create a perception that the state is racist. Arizona did, and this likely accounts for the larger discrepancy between the pre-census estimates and the actual counts.

Having spent a lot of time in Nevada recently, it is my opinion that Las Vegas is actually a more progressive city than Phoenix, even though Phoenix is twice the size. Nevada is much more like California than Arizona is. Look at how the various states in the southwest treat their unemployed:

Maximum cap on unemployment benefits, regardless of your prior earnings:

Arizona: $240 per week (second lowest in the country; only Mississippi is lower at $236)
Nevada: $400 per week
New Mexico: $526 per week
Utah: $333 per week
Colorado: $350 per week
California: $456 per week

--don

Very true, and all the informational blitzing in the world will not do much to compensate for racist overtones from the state. Vegas, because of its culture (gambling) is probably a more progressive city in some ways. Their unemployment is compensated by the gambling industry so they can afford more generous benefits; it is also a much smaller state population wise.

Overcoming years of anti-Hispanic rhetoric from the AZ government over immigrants (legal or otherwise) has created a huge hurdle (fear) that a few months of "education" isn't going to assuage. The huge gap between the 2009 predictions to the actual count likely was a combination of Hispanics who left, those that didn't want to be counted, etc etc...

[azliam]

Originally Posted by phxSUNSfan

The reason they are forced to not participate is more perception (on some Hispanics' part) than reality. They feel forced to into hiding because of the unfriendly tactics of immigration "control" and law in Arizona. Not so much because of the feds but because they don't truly understand the intent of the Census. We, as citizens with no fear of being counted, understand that this is only a tally and measurement of demographic, socioeconomic and other data and that no information is collected that would be able to determine citizenship, per se: but the fear for illegal immigrants is real and to discount that is naive.

They feel forced into hiding because of unfriendly tactics of immigration "control"? While I am not a fan of Sheriff Joe, let me ask these questions. Should we just have open borders? How much does it cost the state of AZ to education, incarcerate and hospitalize illegals? How much of that does the federal government pay/has payed? How long did Napolitano badger the federal government for payment when she was governor? Why did she change her tune now? Do any of you feel there should be any type of punishment for those who participate in identity theft? People are quick to throw the racism card, but do you believe that there are people out there who support something like SB1070 simply because of the financial strain illegals cost the state of AZ or is it just easier to generalize everyone as a racist?

[HX_Guy]

I'm sure they would love to pay their fair share if allowed to.

[combusean]

Originally Posted by azliam

They feel forced into hiding because of unfriendly tactics of immigration "control"? While I am not a fan of Sheriff Joe, let me ask these questions. Should we just have open borders?

I like how you've phrased this argument: Gestapo-like anti-immigration controls that are themselves illegal, or a free-for-all at the border. What about an immigration system that reflects the realities of the demand for low-skilled labor? It's ridiculous that America lets in all end of H1B workers to destroy the crowded market for high-tech employment while vegetables rot on the vine because nobody wants to pick them.

How much does it cost the state of AZ to education, incarcerate and hospitalize illegals?

Way to repeat the tired accusations that immigrants do nothing but drain on the system; a wild speculation that has no grounding in reality.

Complaining about the costs of immigrant education in Arizona is like complaining about the cost of the stale bread and dirty water a slew of miserable orphans receive three times a day. Arizona is downright retarded when it comes to education funding, immigrants are a total red herring to this state's screwy priorities.

Uncompensated care is reimbursed by the Federal government to Arizona. Arizona keeps the money for itself and *doesn't send the money to hospitals.* If AZ didn't keep the money we'd have a brand new county hospital instead of the asbestos-laden rat's nest on Roosevelt St.

And it's funny you complain about incarceration for illegal immigrants. SB1070, which you apparently support, was written by ALEC and the prison lobby so private contractors could profit off the imprisonment of illegal aliens in exchange for their bribing Arizona legislators, so don't whine about the incarceration costs while you get blindsided by the realities of said incarceration. The private prison industry contributed to 30 of the 36 consponsors of SB1070.

How much of that does the federal government pay/has payed? How long did Napolitano badger the federal government for payment when she was governor? Why did she change her tune now?

The fuck? She hasn't been governor for how many years? Find a new scapegoat.

Do any of you feel there should be any type of punishment for those who participate in identity theft?

Again with your either-ors. You phrase your arguments like one of those lunatics on the azcentral comment boards.

People are quick to throw the racism card, but do you believe that there are people out there who support something like SB1070 simply because of the financial strain illegals cost the state of AZ or is it just easier to generalize everyone as a racist?

SB1070 has nothing to do with financial strain of illegals and is a financial strain in and of itself. Every single study I've read says immigrants are a net benefit to the economy.

[nickw252]

Originally Posted by azliam

While I am not a fan of Sheriff Joe, let me ask these questions. Should we just have open borders?

Why is it always an "either or" with Republicans? Either you support Sheriff Joe or you are in favor of open borders...

Why don't republicans realize that there is a moderate and rational middle ground that neither involves having open borders nor having a power hungry sheriff that stomps all over everyone's civil rights in order to get attention.

[PHX31]

/\ Combusean,
I'd like to know what you are reading that says "immigrants" (I'll assume you meant illegals, because that's the talking point) are a net benefit to the economy. Did what you read break down who or what was benefitting? The major corporations? A normal middle class person like myself? I'm about 99% sure illegals don't benefit me at all. If they do, I would like to know how (honestly). Just so you know, I don't hire them to mow my lawn. My house and everything about myself is self sufficient. Except the thing like roads and utilities and public servants, which I have to compete with illegals to use.

Yeah, though, there should be some middle ground between open borders and "Gestapo tactics" (your words).

[combusean]

^ http://udallcenter.arizona.edu/immig...migrants08.pdf points out that immigrants, half of which are illegal, contribute a net gain of $945 million in tax revenue to Arizona. To my knowledge, there is no other study as comprehensive.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2b5_1280670442 hosts a nifty article from Fox Business that draws similar conclusions in Arizona from a study in Texas that illegal immigrants are a net benefit.

http://www.azcentral.com/business/ar...st0110-ON.html summarizes the most critical study I can find in Arizona about illegal immigrants in that they drive down the wages of high school dropouts. In my book, this is a good thing. High-school dropouts should be cheap to hire. It's good for the people hiring them and provides a disincentive to drop out of high school.

[azliam]

Originally Posted by combusean

I like how you've phrased this argument: Gestapo-like anti-immigration controls that are themselves illegal, or a free-for-all at the border. What about an immigration system that reflects the realities of the demand for low-skilled labor? It's ridiculous that America lets in all end of H1B workers to destroy the crowded market for high-tech employment while vegetables rot on the vine because nobody wants to pick them.



Way to repeat the tired accusations that immigrants do nothing but drain on the system; a wild speculation that has no grounding in reality.

Complaining about the costs of immigrant education in Arizona is like complaining about the cost of the stale bread and dirty water a slew of miserable orphans receive three times a day. Arizona is downright retarded when it comes to education funding, immigrants are a total red herring to this state's screwy priorities.

Uncompensated care is reimbursed by the Federal government to Arizona. Arizona keeps the money for itself and *doesn't send the money to hospitals.* If AZ didn't keep the money we'd have a brand new county hospital instead of the asbestos-laden rat's nest on Roosevelt St.

And it's funny you complain about incarceration for illegal immigrants. SB1070, which you apparently support, was written by ALEC and the prison lobby so private contractors could profit off the imprisonment of illegal aliens in exchange for their bribing Arizona legislators, so don't whine about the incarceration costs while you get blindsided by the realities of said incarceration. The private prison industry contributed to 30 of the 36 consponsors of SB1070.



The fuck? She hasn't been governor for how many years? Find a new scapegoat.



Again with your either-ors. You phrase your arguments like one of those lunatics on the azcentral comment boards.



SB1070 has nothing to do with financial strain of illegals and is a financial strain in and of itself. Every single study I've read says immigrants are a net benefit to the economy.

Wow...I asked questions because I was curious as to how people thought and got this in return? Actually, I didn't get much in the way of answers at all (which is what I was looking for). However, I'm a little upset at the demeanor you took when responding to me as if I was personally attacking YOU. Real classy.

[azliam]

Originally Posted by nickw252

Why is it always an "either or" with Republicans? Either you support Sheriff Joe or you are in favor of open borders...

Why don't republicans realize that there is a moderate and rational middle ground that neither involves having open borders nor having a power hungry sheriff that stomps all over everyone's civil rights in order to get attention.

Why are you asking me this? I am not a Republican.

[combusean]

Originally Posted by azliam

Wow...I asked questions because I was curious as to how people thought and got this in return? Actually, I didn't get much in the way of answers at all (which is what I was looking for). However, I'm a little upset at the demeanor you took when responding to me as if I was personally attacking YOU. Real classy.

I see. So by tearing an argument apart, you say I felt personally attacked by you, which I wasn't, so you actually do attack me by calling me "real classy". Makes plenty of sense.

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by combusean

^ http://udallcenter.arizona.edu/immig...migrants08.pdf points out that immigrants, half of which are illegal, contribute a net gain of $945 million in tax revenue to Arizona. To my knowledge, there is no other study as comprehensive.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2b5_1280670442 hosts a nifty article from Fox Business that draws similar conclusions in Arizona from a study in Texas that illegal immigrants are a net benefit.

http://www.azcentral.com/business/ar...st0110-ON.html summarizes the most critical study I can find in Arizona about illegal immigrants in that they drive down the wages of high school dropouts. In my book, this is a good thing. High-school dropouts should be cheap to hire. It's good for the people hiring them and provides a disincentive to drop out of high school.

While this may or may not be true...Why have any immigration laws at all? Whether the state makes money off the backs of illegals or not, the point is, there are laws on the books, that must be enforced as long as they're on the books. AZ could make billions in extra revenue by legalizing illegal drugs, but there is a huge cost to society.

It's ironic that AZ is punished for enforcing Federal laws on the books, yet states like CA have almost no backlash for not enforcing Federal drug laws and when it comes to Marijuana which is basically legal and taxed on a local level.

[combusean]

^ In both situations, the Federal law is broken. Marijuana should absolutely not be a Schedule I controlled substance and I doubt that legalization would do more damage to society than the continued policy of drug prohibition. We feel the pains of the broken immigration system everyday.

The problem with both approaches are the broken priorities of law enforcement. The Sheriff's office has tens of thousands of unserved warrants and has a serious problem with rural law enforcement. Aguila had effectively no police protection, El Mirage has hundreds of sex crimes that were cleared without arrest, and response times countywide are abysmal. If the Sheriff had all his ducks in a row and was being a good cop, his other actions with regards to immigration would be less problematic.

[azliam]

Originally Posted by combusean

I see. So by tearing an argument apart, you say I felt personally attacked by you, which I wasn't, so you actually do attack me by calling me "real classy". Makes plenty of sense.

There you go again. I'm not quite sure why you were "tearing an argument apart" when there was no argument to begin with. I was simply asking questions to get a better consensus as to how people thought about the questions I posed. Is it not possible for you to express your opinion or in fact have a disagreement with someone without your inappropriate snide remarks? Comments such as "You phrase your arguments like one of the lunatics on the azcentral comment boards", "makes plenty of sense ", and throwing out generalizations about me when you don't even know me isn't complimentary and no, I don't find it classy either regardless of whether it is you or anybody else. I have always enjoyed and appreciated the information that you have offered on this board, but perhaps you should learn some manners to compliment that great information that you give.

[nickw252]

Originally Posted by azliam

Why are you asking me this?

I am asking you that because that's how you couched the issue.

Here is your quote:

Originally Posted by azliam

While I am not a fan of Sheriff Joe, let me ask these questions. Should we just have open borders?

EITHER you support Arpaio's immigration policies (even though you aren't a big fan of him), OR you are for open borders.

[combusean]

Originally Posted by azliam

There you go again. I'm not quite sure why you were "tearing an argument apart" when there was no argument to begin with.
I was simply asking questions to get a better consensus as to how people thought about the questions I posed.

Whatever. You're bullshitting me if you think you were just "asking questions." You have already made up your mind already with regards to where you stand on the issue. That sounds like argument to me.

Is it not possible for you to express your opinion or in fact have a disagreement with someone without your inappropriate snide remarks? Comments such as "You phrase your arguments like one of the lunatics on the azcentral comment boards", "makes plenty of sense ", and throwing out generalizations about me when you don't even know me isn't complimentary and no, I don't find it classy either regardless of whether it is you or anybody else.

You did phrase your arguments like one of the lunatics on the azcentral board. They use those same either/ors all the time like you did. If you feel insulted by a statement of fact, maybe you should take a different approach. =P

And I still don't see why you get to be as sarcastic as you want but I'm not allowed to.

[azliam]

Originally Posted by combusean

Whatever. You're bullshitting me if you think you were just "asking questions." You have already made up your mind already with regards to where you stand on the issue. That sounds like argument to me.



You did phrase your arguments like one of the lunatics on the azcentral board. They use those same either/ors all the time like you did. If you feel insulted by a statement of fact, maybe you should take a different approach. =P

And I still don't see why you get to be as sarcastic as you want but I'm not allowed to.

Thanks for making faulty assumptions about me. No, I haven't made up my mind about the "issue" as you put it and I don't need to bullshit anybody when it comes to how I feel about an issue. I'll take ownership of how I phrased my post and I would imagine that you also take ownership of the way you chose to respond to someone; however, I won't be asking for your unsolicited advice in the future when it comes to issues like this and certainly not your advice as to which approach I should take when creating a post.

[HooverDam]

You don't have to be racist to support SB1070 and Sheriff Joe, the other option is you're dumb. So there are other possibilities to be considered...