The "me-too" movement

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Honestly, I'm flummoxed: Is there a millennial mentality happening here that I'm of touch with as a GenXer? These responses read like they're coming from somewhere on the autism spectrum. Or the alt-righty "incel" fever swamp.

Probably, I reread the text many times and fail to see it. Remember that younger people are into normcore and non-flashiness, "being your best" is actually being yourself. I personnaly can't stand Gen-X's go-go-go attitude with their formal workwear etc. But again that is not my generation.

Many dates I had with guys were far far worse than how the story reads and I still had fun on those dates. Being upset at someone for waiting 20 minutes or seing that he popped a pimple (better than seeing the white stuff IMO) just seems extremely superficial to me, hence where I see the entitlement. People have been brought up to be independent and selfish; instead of being mad at that person, you can just tell them that you don't like tardiness. Social rituals are not a thing for younger people (again from my perspective).

The answers are basically what happened at my workplace. Older folks/mostly women, were outraged at the guy, younger/mostly men were outraged at the girl for not being independant of money/thought.

[vid]

The fact that she wasn't enjoying herself and he was grabbing her hand definitely isn't acceptable. If she isn't feeling comfortable being with him, then she isn't comfortable being with him. I've been in both positions described in that article, and neither one ends well, but the one who can't see that the other isn't enjoying their presence is definitely the worse one. She should have been more straightforward with the fact that she made her uncomfortable, but for women, that comes with the baggage of knowing that there are a lot of men out there who will assault them if they say it.

Originally Posted by rousseau

That's not true

So you're saying that capitalism would survive if everyone were paid a living wage? And I'm not talking about microeconomics, I'm talking macro. Will capitalism still be a feasible economic system if cheap overseas labour were completely eliminated? Would it still work if there were no one, at all, desperate enough to pick lettuce for $3 an hour?

I know this isn't the place for this discussion but come on now, take a minute and think about how capitalism actually functions. It needs a desperate class of workers to produce goods cheap enough for the underpaid class to participate in the consumption process. And again, macro. Don't point at Norway and say "it's possible", they're buying phones and clothing made by Asian children, too. Every attempt I've seen of someone describing capitalism where there is no poverty or inequality has just been an explanation of some flavour of socialism.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by vid

So you're saying that capitalism would survive if everyone were paid a living wage? And I'm not talking about microeconomics, I'm talking macro. Will capitalism still be a feasible economic system if cheap overseas labour were completely eliminated? Would it still work if there were no one, at all, desperate enough to pick lettuce for $3 an hour?

I'd argue that the era of the late-1950s and 1960s was closest to equality we've seen. By about 1960, Europe and Japan had pulled themselves together from WWII and were part of the world economy. I'd imagine most products sold in a typical store were produced in a first world country of the time, aside from maybe tropical fruits such as bananas and things like coffee.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Originally Posted by vid

Capitalism requires poverty and inequality to exist or it cannot function.

And doesn't socialism also require poverty? But, oh well, at least we're all equal! Yay!

We need capitalism and competition and freedom of choice, but we also need the Left to keep gross inequality and corruption from getting out of hand.

[vid]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

And doesn't socialism also require poverty? But, oh well, at least we're all equal! Yay!

Socialism doesn't require poverty because socialism doesn't require a desperate underclass to work for low wages so corporations can maximize profit. That socialism often results in poverty, in the world as it stands, is often a result of socialist economies being isolated. Take Cuba for example: socialism didn't make the people of Cuba poor, sanctions against Cuba as punishment for being socialists have made Cuba poor. Same with Venezuela, much of the economic problems in that country are due to outside sources trying to punish the country for being socialist. Capitalist nations are actively undermining socialist nations to protect corporate profit.

Look at all the countries the US has either invaded, backed coups or instituted "regime change/democracy". Before the US interference, they were all socialist or communist. From Iraq to Vietnam to Chile to Libya, every time the US was involved in overthrowing a government, the government they overthrew was socialist.

[Joe Scraper]

Originally Posted by vid

Socialism doesn't require poverty because socialism doesn't require a desperate underclass to work for low wages so corporations can maximize profit. That socialism often results in poverty, in the world as it stands, is often a result of socialist economies being isolated. Take Cuba for example: socialism didn't make the people of Cuba poor, sanctions against Cuba as punishment for being socialists have made Cuba poor. Same with Venezuela, much of the economic problems in that country are due to outside sources trying to punish the country for being socialist. Capitalist nations are actively undermining socialist nations to protect corporate profit.

Look at all the countries the US has either invaded, backed coups or instituted "regime change/democracy". Before the US interference, they were all socialist or communist. From Iraq to Vietnam to Chile to Libya, every time the US was involved in overthrowing a government, the government they overthrew was socialist.

Vid, I know your work experiences drove you to socialism but as someone who's actually lived under socialism please believe me that it doesn't work. The other negative aspects of socialist dictatorships get more news but the real reason it drives everyone into poverty is simply because people stop working after a while. The system creates a race to the bottom where people keep showing up for work but do less and less as they get paid the same anyway. It's like the government job stereotype but it gets far worse since under socialism the conservatives never get elected to clean house from time to time.

[1overcosc]

If you talk to people who actually lived in the former Soviet Bloc you actually get very mixed opinions. Quite a few people think ditching communism was a bad move in the end, though this opinion does get rarer as you go further west within the region.

A lot of people from Western Europe and North America have this mindset that the 1989-1991 revolutionary period turned the region from a dark dystopian hellhole to an unquestionably better place. One of the first things you learn if you travel there and talk to people is this is a very oversimplistic way of looking at it.

[niwell]

Democratic socialism isn't the same as Latin American dictatorships. Much less the former USSR. We have some pretty concrete examples of countries where it's working pretty well, too.

And yes, while the thought of the Soviet Bloc sounds pretty terrible to me I have actually met people who grew up there and thought it preferable to the situation now (and in some rare cases to the situation here).

Originally Posted by rousseau

That's not true, of course, but it's certainly the kind of talking point that gets "woke" heads nodding.

It's absolutely true. However, within a capitalist system you can certainly ameliorate the negative effects through social programs. Which, seeing as we live in a global capitalist system, is what most (not all) people talking about socialism are referring to. As opposed to fundamentally changing the system, which IMO would only work on a global scale.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Joe Scraper

Vid, I know your work experiences drove you to socialism but as someone who's actually lived under socialism please believe me that it doesn't work.

There are a lot of people living in capitalist economies that don't work either. Whether it's being governed from the left or right or anywhere else on the spectrum, there are no shortage of countries that have had their well-being bogged down by corruption and mismanagement.

Moreso than ideology itself, competence & pragmatism in governance is key.

[333609543]

deleted

[O-tacular]

At last female abusers are coming to light!


https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.vox....lt-allegations

[DLLB]

It's about time the world woke up to the fact that women can sexually abuse and harass men.
*Katie Perry kisses a man on the lips when he didn't want it but NO consequences for her.
* 2 men accuse Assemblywoman Cristina Garcia — a vocal #MeToo ally — of sexual harassment - By the way, SHE WAS ON THE COVER OF TIME AS A PROPONENT OF THE #METOO MOVEMENT
* Woman spared jail for sex attack on man at McDonald’s. A woman who groped a man’s testicles and smacked his bottom has been spared jail.
* One senior human resources leader I spoke with had a woman surprise him and take his picture. It was then pasted beside one of George Clooney, with the headline "Who is Hotter?" This poster was e-mailed to the entire department, and others who wished to play the game, along with electronic voting boxes for accuracy
* World-renowned lesbian NYU professor suspended after probe finds she sexually harassed gay male student
* In a mostly female work environment, each time the leader had a chance, she would tell the new hire it was a game to see how many bum-slap opportunities she and her colleagues could find.
* major Texas democrat resigns over cocaine, sexting, and prostitution charges
* Male Bartenders Continually Groped By Female Customers, Forced To Change Kilts
* Dem Candidate Accused of Sexual Harassment Set to Drop Out of House Race. Democratic congressional candidate Andrea Ramsey is dropping out of a Kansas race after a spotlight was put on a past lawsuit involving accusations that she sexually harassed a male subordinate who rejected her advances.
* Female CNN Anchor Caught on Camera Openly Sexually Harassing Male… Media Silent
* 3 Female announcers put oil an Olympic athlete upper body while a male announcer interviews him
* 77% of men sexually harassed by female staff - Irish Examiner
* Most men are harassed by women at work Telegraph
* Megan Barry, called a news conference to announce that she had been having an affair with Robert Forrest Jr., a police sergeant who was the head of her security detail

[DLLB]

And this is how feminist react when the abuser is female and the victim is male. As well, they finally admit what Obama and Biden's "Dear Colleague" Title IX letter was REALLY all about.

Feminists Academics Outraged that Title IX Being Used in Abuse Case Involving Lesbian Feminist Professor
THE GIST OF THEIR COMPLAINT: HEY, WE THOUGHT TITLE IX WAS A FEMINIST TOOL.
http://www.iwf.org/blog/2807230/Femi...nist-Professor

It's it amazing who they change their story with the abuser is female and the victim is male. HYPOCRISY on steroids.
What Happens When It’s #HimToo?
Asia Argento and the Dangers of MeToo Hypocrisy
And yet, when the Argento news broke, celebrity-turned-MeToo activist Rose McGowan tweeted:
None of us know the truth of the situation and I’m sure more will be revealed. Be gentle.
https://www.weeklystandard.com/chris...etoo-hypocrisy

Rose McGowan Wanted Us To Believe All Sexual Abuse Allegations...Until Her Friend Was Implicated
On Monday, Rose McGowan, a leading face of the #MeToo movement and alleged sexual assault victim of Harvey Weinstein, tweeted out her support for fellow #MeToo icon Asia Argento.
https://www.dailywire.com/news/34746...se-ben-shapiro

23 wrote glowing letters of support for guidance counselor who sexually assaulted student
Current and retired professors from Plymouth State University, high school guidance counselors, lawyers and psychologists are among the 23 people who wrote glowing letters to a court supporting former Exeter High School guidance counselor Kristie Torbick, who recently pleaded guilty to sexually assaulting a 14-year-old student.
The stack of letters is now contained in the court file for the 39-year-old Torbick, a mother of three from Lee who was sentenced on July 9 to 30 months to five years in state prison after she pleaded guilty to four counts of felonious sexual assault on the freshman student in December 2016 and January 2017.

The sentence was lighter than the five to 10 years sought by prosecutors, but came after nearly two dozen people packed the sentencing hearing, with a handful speaking on Torbick’s behalf and some begging Judge Andrew Schulman to be lenient. At one point the teenage victim left the courtroom in tears as Torbick’s supporters spoke and returned a short time later to continue listening.
http://www.unionleader.com/crime/23-...udent-20180723

[Hali87]

This is a pretty good analysis of it all, IMO.

I never saw #metoo as being primarily about gender. That's how a lot of people framed it (and still do) but I always saw it, at its core, as being about those in positions of power exploiting that power. That things played out along gender lines as long as they did is incidental (and statistically likely) but that couldn't go on forever.

It's an issue that's inherently about power dynamics. Not gender.

[333609543]

Well really when it comes down to it, sexual assault, rape (and all other just terrible things) are a result of power. (asserting your power unto another)

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Hali87

This is a pretty good analysis of it all, IMO.

I never saw #metoo as being primarily about gender. That's how a lot of people framed it (and still do) but I always saw it, at its core, as being about those in positions of power exploiting that power. That things played out along gender lines as long as they did is incidental (and statistically likely) but that couldn't go on forever.

It's an issue that's inherently about power dynamics. Not gender.

Agreed. I'm just thankful it's finally reached this point. As a victim of a female abuser it has been pretty lonely when the only #MeToo coverage you see is about male abusers.

Great article btw.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by DLLB

And this is how feminist react when the abuser is female and the victim is male. As well, they finally admit what Obama and Biden's "Dear Colleague" Title IX letter was REALLY all about.

Feminists Academics Outraged that Title IX Being Used in Abuse Case Involving Lesbian Feminist Professor
THE GIST OF THEIR COMPLAINT: HEY, WE THOUGHT TITLE IX WAS A FEMINIST TOOL.
http://www.iwf.org/blog/2807230/Femi...nist-Professor

It's it amazing who they change their story with the abuser is female and the victim is male. HYPOCRISY on steroids.
What Happens When It’s #HimToo?
Asia Argento and the Dangers of MeToo Hypocrisy
And yet, when the Argento news broke, celebrity-turned-MeToo activist Rose McGowan tweeted:
None of us know the truth of the situation and I’m sure more will be revealed. Be gentle.
https://www.weeklystandard.com/chris...etoo-hypocrisy

Rose McGowan Wanted Us To Believe All Sexual Abuse Allegations...Until Her Friend Was Implicated
On Monday, Rose McGowan, a leading face of the #MeToo movement and alleged sexual assault victim of Harvey Weinstein, tweeted out her support for fellow #MeToo icon Asia Argento.
https://www.dailywire.com/news/34746...se-ben-shapiro

23 wrote glowing letters of support for guidance counselor who sexually assaulted student
Current and retired professors from Plymouth State University, high school guidance counselors, lawyers and psychologists are among the 23 people who wrote glowing letters to a court supporting former Exeter High School guidance counselor Kristie Torbick, who recently pleaded guilty to sexually assaulting a 14-year-old student.
The stack of letters is now contained in the court file for the 39-year-old Torbick, a mother of three from Lee who was sentenced on July 9 to 30 months to five years in state prison after she pleaded guilty to four counts of felonious sexual assault on the freshman student in December 2016 and January 2017.

The sentence was lighter than the five to 10 years sought by prosecutors, but came after nearly two dozen people packed the sentencing hearing, with a handful speaking on Torbick’s behalf and some begging Judge Andrew Schulman to be lenient. At one point the teenage victim left the courtroom in tears as Torbick’s supporters spoke and returned a short time later to continue listening.
http://www.unionleader.com/crime/23-...udent-20180723

I think the article Hali87 posted does a good job of explaining how the academics defending Ronell aren’t part of the #MeToo movement and in fact demonstrate how power can be abused. Let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater. So far reactions I’ve seen suggest an openness in the media and #MeToo to talking about female abusers. Also, just because Argento may be an abuser doesn’t mean Weinstein didn’t abuse her. She shouldn’t have been a spokesperson for #MeToo though.

Let’s take this opportunity to include ourselves in #MeToo instead of attacking it.

[Acajack]

In the news here in Quebec today: all of the sex-related criminal charges against comedy mogul Gilbert Rozon (Just for Laughs) are apparently going to be dropped. There is still a civil class action suit pending against him, involving several women.

[Acajack]

Looks like the media jumped the gun. While almost all of the charges are not going forward against Rozon, one alleged rape from 1979 apparently has enough to it to go ahead with a criminal trial.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Looks like the media jumped the gun. While almost all of the charges are not going forward against Rozon, one alleged rape from 1979 apparently has enough to it to go ahead with a criminal trial.

Good. I wondered about him after watching a recent Whitney Cummings Just For Laughs special a couple weeks ago.