What do you think of other parts of Canada?

[Hali87]

Since so many on this forum live or have lived outside of the Halifax area, I thought it would be interesting to see what others thought of cities they've been to elsewhere in Canada. What did you like or dislike about them? Are there any things that they had that would work well in Halifax? Are there any lessons we can learn from the mistakes of other cities?

I've planted trees in different parts of the country for the past several summers, so I've been fortunate enough to have seen most of the major cities in the country (in fact as of this summer I have spent at least a day in each province)... so my list is pretty long. I'll start from the west:

Vancouver: I was blown away by how beautiful and engaging the city is at street level. I would be very surprised if many of the people who "don't want highrises because they don't want Halifax to look like Vancouver" have ever been to Vancouver - the highrises are not overwhelming to pedestrians, do not block out the sky, do not block the view of the scenery, and do not make it windy. They also don't detract from the great low rise architecture that surrounds them. The transit system is great, the architectural standard is much higher than in most of Canada (especially mid-century to present), the city core is very walkable and because of the huge signs that stick out from the sides of many buildings, pretty easy to navigate. The "urban format" grocery stores that are often mentioned as something that Halifax should have, are all over in Vancouver. There are also many local food and retail chains that are ubiquitous within Vancouver and other BC cities but don't exist anywhere else in the country. The city has a solid nightlife (not really the same as Halifax's, but comparable), great access to nature and recreational activities, great active transportation infrastructure and a hip cultural scene. The "vapo lounges" in downtown Van really push the envelope in terms of how tolerant Vancouverites are toward casual marijuana use, but I can pretty much guarantee that if, say, the Toothy Moose were replaced with a vapo lounge, the violent crime rate in downtown Halifax would drop significantly (stoners are much less prone to causing trouble than drunks). In many ways it feels like a parallel-universe alternate version of Halifax where things actually get done instead of just being talked about. Vancouver's convention centre is also a remarkably cool building, as are its central library and stadium.

I only spent a week in Vancouver so I didn't notice the downsides of living there very much, but from what others have told me these downsides are high average rents/property values, difficulty finding a job, dreary weather, very highly visible poverty, homelessness, and drug addiction, and very bad traffic. Gasoline is also more expensive in BC than in most parts of Canada (it's usually a couple cents higher than in NS). There is quite a lot of urban sprawl, although Vancouver's suburbs are a step ahead of most cities' in terms of livability, architecture, land use and transit integration. Even the strip malls are quite nice and tend to defy convention.

[Hali87]

Kamloops: Much more interesting than I expected, and possibly my favourite small (~100k) city in Canada. Unique sense of place (I think it's the only city in Canada that's surrounded by desert) and even the architecture reflects this - kind of a hybrid of Vancouver and the American Southwest. Thomson Rivers University, which had been described to me as "small" and "basic", has some great architecture on campus and is a pleasant environment - picture a cross between MSVU and the end of University Ave, only with all-new buildings. The city itself has two main core areas (one on each side of the river) and both are very walkable and have great restaurants, bars, hotels, indy retail, etc. Unfortunately the city is not at all pedestrian friendly once you leave the core areas, the street system becomes extremely confusing, and there are few pedestrian/active transportation routes, making it very difficult to get around without a car, and very confusing to get around even with a car. Like Vancouver, there seem to be a lot of BC-based chain stores that you don't really see anywhere else, although many "bigger-city" chains such as MEC don't have a presence here.

Kelowna: the first thing that surprised me was the affluence. Kelowna may be the most universally wealthy city I've ever been to. The architecture is universally "very nice" and the whole city looks like it could be in an affluent part of SoCal. The other big surprise was how dry the Okanagan area is - not a desert like Kamloops but not the lush green hippie paradise I was expecting either. All in all kind of a dull city, a little bigger than Kamloops but lacking any real "downtown" area. Not very pedestrian-friendly, although the transit service was decent. I'm told that the Okanagan is great for recreational activities, although I've only ever been to Kelowna for a day or 2 at a time and was too busy doing other things to get out on the lake.

I'm living near Revelstoke, BC for the winter so I'll try to get some pictures of the cities around here when I get the chance. I might actually be going to Victoria via Vancouver in a few days.

[Hali87]

Edmonton: my parents both grew up in Edmonton, so I've been there a few times over the course of my life. I always really liked the Edmonton skyline, it has that sort of classic "big city, Anywhere, North America" look to it. West Edmonton Mall is great and is larger than the downtown of many cities. The cultural scene is surprisingly big and Whyte Ave. is a cool area with a cultural venues including many auditoriums - the impression that I got was that live theatre is to Edmonton what live music is to Halifax. Whyte Ave. is also interesting because it's not really downtown - Edmonton has separate business and entertainment districts. The city is very passionate about sports and supports their teams well, and Commonwealth Stadium is a really cool place to be. The Edmonton LRT was the first of its kind in North America and while its success is overshadowed by that of the C-Train, it is still very successful by North American standards... and those are all of the things that I like about Edmonton.

Edmonton probably has the lowest proportion of city centre to sprawl of any major city in Canada. About 90% of the population lives in neighbourhoods that look like Cole Harbour and non-residential areas are mostly dominated by massive strip malls and power centres with huge parking lots featuring mostly generic chain stores, or heavy industrial uses like oil refineries. There are very few mixed-use areas. Even the areas around most of the LRT stations look a lot like the corner of Parkland and Lacewood and many actually have lower population densities. Also the city with the greatest average street width that I've seen in Canada - each arterial street seems to take up 2-3x as much space as it actually needs.

[someone123]

I find it interesting how similar Vancouver and Halifax can be given how far apart they are. Because of their geography and economy, I think they have a lot more in common than they do with some other cities in their respective regions.

This is something I've thought too:

In many ways it feels like a parallel-universe alternate version of Halifax where things actually get done instead of just being talked about.

I actually found it a bit weird when I moved here and the things that were debated became physical reality within a couple of years. Vancouver's infrastructure is not perfect but the city makes regular tangible progress in a way that Halifax doesn't, even when you correct for the difference in scale. When it comes to transit, one major difference is that Vancouver has an authority called TransLink that oversees transit planning. They even collect revenue from a gas tax within the GVRD, which is why pump prices are higher here. In Halifax, Metro Transit does not seem to push for improvements and council doesn't have the knowledge or direction to plan on the scale the city needs.

Vancouver also has its own city council that tends to be more willing to invest in the downtown. There are constant streetscape improvement projects and they are of a relatively high and consistent quality. I think it's really pathetic that Halifax has 1970s highway-style street lights, broken sidewalks, and wooden utility poles downtown. There are many small towns in Canada with nicer streets.

Another huge difference between the two cities is how they are treated within their respective provinces and regions. There is a ton of hostility toward Halifax in Nova Scotia and in the Maritimes that doesn't seem to have a true counterpart here. It is strange because Vancouver is arguably a much more dominant city that gets lots of provincial funding for infrastructure. We even got the winter Olympics. Vancouver's transit authority is only paying for $400M out of the project's $1.4B capital budget. I go to Vancouver Island and the interior pretty frequently and I don't notice a whole lot of griping about any of this stuff.

I think the architecture quality point is approximately true, with some caveats. Vancouver has plenty of ugly modern buildings and aside from a few exceptions its older buildings are pretty modest. The period of good urban design in Vancouver started in the 1980s and really hit its stride during the last decade. The average quality of newer buildings I would say is much higher than what was proposed in Halifax pre-HbD, but not too far off from the newest crop of stuff. In some ways I actually like Halifax architecture more now; one big problem in Vancouver is that most modern designs have converged on a blue glass appearance. That was interesting when it was novel but it is less interesting when it accounts for 90% of new condos.

One difference that might make the older buildings better on average is that there tend to be more facade improvement projects in Vancouver. A lot of bunker-like buildings have been redone with storefronts and glass awnings. I think the city facilitates these improvements somehow but I am not sure how the process works. In Halifax, buildings like the Maritime Centre are pretty much left as-is unless there's some structural problem with them that might threaten the ability of their owner to lease out space.

I'll leave it at that for now.

[Antigonish]

You pretty much summed it up for me right there. One thing that I found discouraging was how unaffordable living in Vancouver was. Having a solid Bus and LRT system saved me though. I last lived in Queensborough, New West when I was there and it took me no less than 20-25 minutes commute to MetroTown for work via bus, then skytrain.

Could you imagine commuting from Lower Sackville to Downtown in 20 minutes every work day? Halifax needs to get its priorities solved

[worldlyhaligonian]

I've lived all over Canada since completing high school (BC twice, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick, and spent alot of time in PEI).

Honestly, nothing compares to Halifax... but the scariest thing about living in some of those other places was watching them become better before my eyes.

This is the issue with Halifax... people are so worried about maintaining a status quo that it never reaches its full potential. Even at 50% potential, Halifax has more character and is generally nicer than other places... and this is what I don't get...

The city/HT/nimbys fight against all of these landmark developments and while suburban crap gets built all over the city. All the shit that has gone up around Cornwallis Square is appalling.

I don't think Halifax can get anything but better by just going for it with landmark new developments. Its not that scary... cities with wayy more heritage than Halifax will ever know aren't afraid of new development because it needs to happen to preserve the value in areas where there are old structures.

The Vic is exactly the direction Halifax should be going, just a wee bit taller. Let's save all of the heritage we have left, but not shoot ourselves in the foot in terms of creating real urban environments instead of the patchwork of lots that currently exist.

I'm excited to be back in Halifax next year for a bit... the updates have been incredible and I'm getting the sense that the city is coming together. Once the library is up, I think a stadium is in order.

[Halifax Hillbilly]

Montreal: My absolute favourite Canadian city. There's so much I like, but it seems to have a unique urbanity for North America. It feels like a true industrial era metropolis: important, vibrant downtown; very dense, low-rise inner city; hustle and bustle; grit, grime and glorious old commercial buildings side by side; heavily reliant on transit and lots of walkers. I guess the thing I like most is how many distinct neighbourhoods are very urban: downtown, the Plateau, Mile End, Little Italy, Cotes-des-neiges, Little Burgundy. No longer the biggest or richest Canadian city, but plays to its strengths.

I think Halifax could learn a lot from Montreal about good infill, vibrant streets and public spaces, being comfortable with what you are, and good design in general.

Toronto: A whole lot of great stuff that somehow only adds up to good. Granted I was only there for three days, but the building boom doesn't seem to be creating coherent blocks and neighbourhoods. Downtown and the new waterfront especially lack in small scale thinking, interesting public spaces and building diversity: condo tower, condo tower, condo tower, condo tower, condo tower, ad infintium. It's a bit monotonous and sterile.

That said, I loved Queen West, Chinatown, the Annex, and parts of Yonge. Huge potential, but I didn't think it's living up to it.

I think Toronto could teach Halifax a lot about the benefits of getting people living downtown. Toronto's also a bit of a cautionary tale about putting some thought into how you do it. Place-making and public investment need to happen along with private investment. The two cities seem to share a similar schizo outlook: they both talk like they're much bigger and more important than they really are, but when push comes to shove they spend money and make decisions like they're much smaller cities.

Honestly, nothing compares to Halifax... but the scariest thing about living in some of those other places was watching them become better before my eyes.

This is the issue with Halifax... people are so worried about maintaining a status quo that it never reaches its full potential.

I agree that Halifax has huge potential. The setting on the Harbour, the bones of the old city, the heritage buildings, the great residential neighbourhoods so close to downtown, the huge number of people working and studying on the peninsula. It could be a phenomenal small city: the building blocks are all there for a bustling, interesting place all the way from the Hydrostone to South Street, and up to Robie and Quinpool.

I'm not sure it's only fear of change. One big issue is we have done so poorly with the city we are given. A lot of the big, tall scary developments that promised so many benefits are often just big, tall and scary. The benefits never materialized and we're left with a lot of mistakes that make people cautious about all the hype about development. I think quality projects will help change opinions, but it will take time. The Vic, W Suites and Trillium are great projects and there are more good ones, highrise and lowrise, in the pipe. I think downtown has really turned a corner: lots of people want to live there and businesses are following. For all the hysterics about Barrington people often forgot about how much has changed for the better on the south end of that street.

I think you'll enjoy your visit

[Hali87]

Victoria: Again, I was absolutely blown away by how awesome a city this is. The metro population and inner city density (and probably the overall metro-wide density) are similar to Halifax's, and like Vancouver, I found that there were a lot of interesting parallels with Halifax, without any actual "sameness". The Inner Harbour has little to no actual industry and is used almost exclusively for leisure purposes (large public marinas), the most conspicuous buildings downtown are the Legislature, hotels, and museums, most of which are set back from the streets on beautifully landscaped properties, although there are also finer-grained streets similar to Grafton or Spring Garden, with a lot of painted brick buildings like what you'd see in Toronto. Something that really stood out downtown is that many of the streets are about 80% sidewalk. I didn't use the transit system while I was there but it seemed pretty well-developed, and about a quarter of the buses were double-decker. The architecture was almost universally nicer than most parts of Canada - not many buildings over 15 storeys but a LOT in the 8-15 range. The mid-century apartment blocks are nicer than most elsewhere because there is more glass to offset all the brick and concrete, and the newer ones look a lot like the ones in Vancouver except shorter and wider, and often with a more irregular building envelope. There are several large "faux-Edwardian" buildings downtown but they actually look pretty good, they take a lot of architectural cues from the Empress Hotel and look refined rather than tacky. Also, a great Chinatown - one of the nicest I've seen in Canada, and the area actually has a lot of Chinese-influenced architecture, which I haven't really seen anywhere else in Canada. There isn't quite the "range" of architecture that you see in Halifax though - the historic core is smaller, the oldest buildings aren't as old, and the newer ones aren't as cutting-edge as say, the Vic or the new SGR library. The city looks great at night - Victoria and Vancouver make great use of lights and look as colourful at night as Halifax does during the day. All in all one of the most carefree, pleasant cities I've ever seen - everyone was smiling and the locals were quite outgoing and helpful. It also seemed exceptionally safe, even for Canada.

[someone123]

Victoria's a nice city. One of its big advantages is its climate. It can be chilly there in the warmer months but it is pretty comfortable to be outside there basically 24/7, year-round, they pretty much don't have to worry about snow removal, and they get more sun and less rain than Vancouver. A climate like that makes it easier to have vibrant outdoor spaces, whereas Halifax is OK and cities like Edmonton are at a big disadvantage.

You sometimes hear people on the forum claim that Victoria and Halifax are basically "twins", but I don't think that's true beyond a superficial level. Halifax functions as a kind of hybrid of Vancouver and Victoria. It has more regional businesses and is more of a transportation hub, whereas Victoria is more dominated by the provincial government. Halifax is a capital too but Nova Scotia is much smaller than BC. On a subtler level, Victoria has a more pronounced "second city" effect because of how close it is to Vancouver. The lion's share of the big city stuff goes to Vancouver and there is a sense that Vancouver Island should be more laid back and less developed.

I think Halifax is more city-like, has a much larger core and more interesting architecture, as you say, but Victoria has done a much better job of maintaining what it has and investing in its downtown. Victoria's important areas have brick sidewalks, nice street furniture, and carefully-manicured trees. Halifax's shopping streets are mostly a shabby mix of cheap ad hoc improvements and whatever has managed to survive since 1940.

I'm not really sure about transit. I suspect that Victoria's system is a lot better managed, and they have already begun planning for rapid transit: http://www.bctransit.com/vrrt/

[Keith P.]

Plus Victoria wins because it has palm trees!

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by someone123

There is a ton of hostility toward Halifax in Nova Scotia and in the Maritimes that doesn't seem to have a true counterpart here. It is strange because Vancouver is arguably a much more dominant city that gets lots of provincial funding for infrastructure. We even got the winter Olympics. Vancouver's transit authority is only paying for $400M out of the project's $1.4B capital budget. I go to Vancouver Island and the interior pretty frequently and I don't notice a whole lot of griping about any of this stuff.

The negativity from Maritimers, generally speaking, I suspect is partly due to the fact that Halifax is the only municipality in this region that is receives a generous amount of media attention, achieves high profile public and private investments, and has a decent employment rate. So yes: Vancouver is doing well, but so is Victoria and most other areas of BC.

When I've travelled to other parts of Canada, Canucks can recall provincial capitals quickly enough...but when I say "I'm from Moncton," they pause...and then ask me where that is relative to Fredericton.

(But they usually don't know where Fredericton is located.)

I'm also willing to bet that not all media is controlled by a single corporation in British Columbia -- unlike the severe information control in New Brunswick, under Irving, which frequently publicises narratives that scapegoat Halifax.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Halifax Hillbilly

Montreal: My absolute favourite Canadian city. There's so much I like, but it seems to have a unique urbanity for North America. It feels like a true industrial era metropolis: important, vibrant downtown; very dense, low-rise inner city; hustle and bustle; grit, grime and glorious old commercial buildings side by side; heavily reliant on transit and lots of walkers. I guess the thing I like most is how many distinct neighbourhoods are very urban: downtown, the Plateau, Mile End, Little Italy, Cotes-des-neiges, Little Burgundy. No longer the biggest or richest Canadian city, but plays to its strengths.

Mine as well! The city in which I finally decide to settle down would ideally be Montreal. I feel as though a big portion of me is gone when I'm not near francophones. I communicate better in, and prefer, English -- but switching to French and being able to differently express connotations that do not exist in English is culturally fascinating. French art is a world onto its own!

Montreal is fuckin' fabulous!

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

The Vic is exactly the direction Halifax should be going, just a wee bit taller. Let's save all of the heritage we have left, but not shoot ourselves in the foot in terms of creating real urban environments instead of the patchwork of lots that currently exist.

Agreed!

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Hali87

I've planted trees in different parts of the country for the past several summers, so I've been fortunate enough to have seen most of the major cities in the country (in fact as of this summer I have spent at least a day in each province.

I'm uncertain if you've already disclosed this, but are you participating in some form of tree planting programme?

Originally Posted by Hali87

The "vapo lounges" in downtown Van really push the envelope in terms of how tolerant Vancouverites are toward casual marijuana use, but I can pretty much guarantee that if, say, the Toothy Moose were replaced with a vapo lounge, the violent crime rate in downtown Halifax would drop significantly (stoners are much less prone to causing trouble than drunks).

Although I don't advocate smoking marijuana, just as I'm against smoking tobacco because of how carcinogenic it is, vaporising is most definitely the healthy alternative since you avoid combustion of the herb; although, the least toxic form of ingestion would be via THC-infused foods, which is currently being marketed for seniors with arthritis (and younger people just wanting to get high, I suppose )

I hope pot is eventually legalised and then heavily taxed just like alcohol is. The war on drugs has been a total failure, and there are more humane, more economical methods for dealing with addicts that doesn't involve pushing drug profits into the underground where gang activities can flourish.

In Vancouver, the most striking thing I noted was how political the culture was. While in Halifax I find people casually talk about the weather more frequently, Vancouverites seem to have their minds on current events, and aren't shy about mentioning their opinions on such things.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by someone123

I'm not really sure about transit. I suspect that Victoria's system is a lot better managed, and they have already begun planning for rapid transit: http://www.bctransit.com/vrrt/

Something that didn't really occur to me until after I left Victoria is that the city's layout really changes traffic/transit concerns. The legislature, bank offices, and primary entertainment/tourist district are downtown, the naval base is in Esquimault, a suburb to the west, and UVic and Butchart Gardens are both well outside of the city limits. It looked like their arena was also in a sort of midtown area, and office space seemed to be dispersed much more evenly than in Halifax. As a result, there never seemed to be heavy vehicular traffic on the city streets, at least while I was there, the only bad traffic was on the highways/major arteries.

The flip side of this is that if you live at UVic or CFB Esquimault, you can't just walk downtown in 15 minutes like you can in Halifax.

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Plus Victoria wins because it has palm trees!

This is something I found funny in Vancouver - it seemed like they had palm trees everywhere just to prove "hey, we can grow palm trees here!" ...except most of them looked like they were struggling to survive. Certainly none of them were thriving. I didn't actually notice any palm trees in Victoria (the massive cedars, douglas-firs and arbutus trees are more interesting anyway) although I assume they'd grow a bit better than in Van because Victoria gets more sun.

Originally Posted by RyeJay

I'm uncertain if you've already disclosed this, but are you participating in some form of tree planting programme?

I've spent a total of 4 summers planting trees and doing other forestry related work - I've actually worked in NS, NB, ON, MB, AB, and BC during the summers since I started university. I'm currently living just outside Revelstoke BC waiting for the ski hill to open

Originally Posted by RyeJay

In Vancouver, the most striking thing I noted was how political the culture was. While in Halifax I find people casually talk about the weather more frequently, Vancouverites seem to have their minds on current events, and aren't shy about mentioning their opinions on such things.

The impression that I got was that politics are less polarizing in Vancouver than in Halifax. People tend to have more common ground in terms of their opinions and are willing to look at issues from an objective point of view. In Halifax, it seems like anyone who wants bike lanes is an "enviro-crazy", anyone who disagrees that a bus driver's salary should be the same as a teacher's or RN's is a worker-hating elitist, and anyone who runs a business is not to be trusted, especially if they claim to be trying to do positive things for the city. I would imagine that these types of opinions exist in Vancouver, but I doubt that they are as mainstream as they are in Halifax.

The other big difference is that politically, coastal BC is very much at odds with both Alberta and Ottawa, so people have common "opponents" to rally against (I would describe most of interior BC as "apolitical"). In NS, we are surrounded by other vaguely left-of-centre provinces who get significantly less attention from Ottawa than we do, so local differences such as urban vs. suburban vs. rural, homeowner vs. tenant, driver vs. non-driver, labourer vs. academic etc. become much more prominent.

Conversely, Vancouverites talking about the weather: "it sure is raining again!" "ugh, f*** off."

[Hali87]

I'm reposting these pics from the Canada section.. all are pics I took over the weekend while in Victoria. All of the locations are downtown or immediately adjacent to downtown (Chinatown and James Bay).


Fan Tan Alley 1


Fan Tan Alley 2


Victoria Chinatown 1


Victoria Chinatown 2


Victoria Chinatown 3


Downtown Vic 1


Downtown Vic 2


Empress lawn


BC Museum


Huge cedar


Totems

[RyeJay]

I wonder how many forumers are vomiting because none of those pictures have tall skyscrapers...

[Hali87]

Haha.. as I mentioned, Victoria does have some buildings in the 15-25 story range but I was too busy doing other things to take many pictures. The tallest office building I saw downtown was the CIBC building and was about the size of the Homburg building on Brunswick St. Most of the tallest buildings are condos and apartments; the newer ones are basically on par with all but the tallest that you'd see in Vancouver, although there seemed to be a conscious effort to avoid the standard column-shaped condos in favour of more irregular shapes; the older ones are comparable to the buildings around Lacewood and Willett. They all looked quite nice but none of them were outstanding enough to compel me to take any pictures. I'll try to get some next time I'm there though.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Hali87

I've spent a total of 4 summers planting trees and doing other forestry related work - I've actually worked in NS, NB, ON, MB, AB, and BC during the summers since I started university. I'm currently living just outside Revelstoke BC waiting for the ski hill to open

Well done! I have mad respect for anyone who contributes in such a way.

I have friends who were recently in Alberta and the Northwest Territories, studying the southwest-to-northeast spread of pine beetles currently consuming the Boreal Forest, due to the rising temperatures. My friends have shown me the mapping areas where there are massive swaths of newly dead forests....hundreds of kms of dead trees, all within the last few years. Very scary...

It's no longer just British Columbia's problem. The spread is expected to reach Eastern Canada, eventually.

Or as Alberta puts it: Let's build another pipeline.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

I have friends who were recently in Alberta and the Northwest Territories, studying the southwest-to-northeast spread of pine beetles currently consuming the Boreal Forest, due to the rising temperatures. My friends have shown me the mapping areas where there are massive swaths of newly dead forests....hundreds of kms of dead trees, all within the last few years. Very scary...

It's no longer just British Columbia's problem. The spread is expected to reach Eastern Canada, eventually.

A major consequence of the pine beetle devastation is that the damaged forests are especially prone to forest fire. I've heard that a number of mills in BC have been built or retrofitted specifically to process pine beetle infected wood.