James Beard Public Market | Proposed

[maccoinnich]

Neither the City nor County have committed to pay anything for re-configuring the ramps. And given the fairly significant constraints on the site, I'm not sure that $10.4 million represents a "sweet deal".

[pdxtraveler]

It is a public amenity, it will bring jobs, also other business will open close by due to the new vibrancy and activity of the area. That is worth an investment if needed.

[babs]

Originally Posted by pdxtraveler

It is a public amenity, it will bring jobs, also other business will open close by due to the new vibrancy and activity of the area. That is worth an investment if needed.

They used that same argument for the convention center. For the convention center hotel. For public housing projects that with government funding ends up costing significantly more than private projects. This all in a city that struggles to get the streets paved. I'm hardly a right-wing conservative but when it comes to promises that using public money will bring jobs and other businesses nearby, I'm hardly sold on that. If it's such as great idea, investors will step and fund it. That's how start-ups are funded. That's what's driving all of the great projects being built all over the city. But the folks in government can hardly tie their own shoes but we expect them to pick winners when it comes to what will create new jobs and vibrancy and what wont?

Look at the Pine Street Market. Similar concept and the place is packed, no government subsidy required.

[cailes]

Originally Posted by babs

They used that same argument for the convention center. For the convention center hotel. For public housing projects that with government funding ends up costing significantly more than private projects. This all in a city that struggles to get the streets paved. I'm hardly a right-wing conservative but when it comes to promises that using public money will bring jobs and other businesses nearby, I'm hardly sold on that. If it's such as great idea, investors will step and fund it. That's how start-ups are funded. That's what's driving all of the great projects being built all over the city. But the folks in government can hardly tie their own shoes but we expect them to pick winners when it comes to what will create new jobs and vibrancy and what wont?

Look at the Pine Street Market. Similar concept and the place is packed, no government subsidy required.

You should see how bad govt subsidy is passed out in cities that aren't as hot as Portland is. I used to live in one of them.

Despite the success of a development that could win without any public funding, people still ask because it is there...

sad though. I agree with you 100%

[maccoinnich]

The purpose of the James Beard Public Market isn't to make money. It's to have a public market. I doubt it will recover enough in rent from the vendors to do anything other than keep it operating.

"If it's such as great idea, investors will step and fund it" is a very conservative sentiment. By that logic we probably wouldn't have Director Park, the Oregon Rail Heritage Center, the Portland Mercado, the Streetcar, the Classical Chinese Garden, the PNCA 511 building, the Eastbank Esplanade, the Gerding Theater, the OHSU Collaborative Life Sciences Building, the pavilion for the Saturday Market, public art along the Transit Mall, to name but a handful of the things that have received some form of public investment in the past few decades (notice also that there are two markets on that list).

[MarkDaMan]

^and no Pearl, no South Waterfront...

Originally Posted by babs

Look at the Pine Street Market. Similar concept and the place is packed, no government subsidy required.

No it isn't, not even close. I've been to Pine Street Market a couple times now, and it's fantastic! It's also a really awesome food court. You can't compare Pine Street Market (or the Lloyd Mall FoodCourt) to Pikes Place or Granville Island. The PSU Saturday Farmers Market is a much closer comparison to the JBPM and their economics aren't that much different.

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by MarkDaMan

No it isn't, not even close. I've been to Pine Street Market a couple times now, and it's fantastic! It's also a really awesome food court. You can't compare Pine Street Market (or the Lloyd Mall FoodCourt) to Pikes Place or Granville Island. The PSU Saturday Farmers Market is a much closer comparison to the JBPM and their economics aren't that much different.

Thank you. I was going to say the exact same thing. Apples and oranges.

[babs]

Wow, really? Worst response I've ever seen here. Really odd apples to oranges comparison. You are comparing a rent generating food market that is still missing a lot of details to public works projects???

I've seen some odd posts here but this tops them all!

[maccoinnich]

I'm not sure who you were replying to there, but assuming it was me: why do you think those comparisons don't work? Like the JBPM, all the examples above are projects that a) are owned by a non-profit (or a government agency) b) have some sort of cultural, civic or educational mission c) that generate revenue from user fees (with the exception of the Eastbank Esplanade) but d) not enough in user fees to cover the capital cost of building them and therefore e) received some form of government financing to help build them.

[babs]

Originally Posted by maccoinnich

I'm not sure who you were replying to there, but assuming it was me: why do you think those comparisons don't work? Like the JBPM, all the examples above are projects that a) are owned by a non-profit (or a government agency) b) have some sort of cultural, civic or educational mission c) that generate revenue from user fees (with the exception of the Eastbank Esplanade) but d) not enough in user fees to cover the capital cost of building them and therefore e) received some form of government financing to help build them.

The JBPM has published so little information as to what their final plans look like, it's hard to make any judgement as what the final product will look like. Is it going to have a ton of spaces that are rented out at market value? Will there be lower rates for farmers? Let's not just toss public money at projects just because we want to feel good about. Let's also not forget that at some point a request will come through for the millions it will cost to move the on/off ramps. You can count on the public to pay for that.

The 200k that Hales wants to give them in the budget could fund two police officers. These two additional officers could go a long way towards cleaning up the tent city on downtown's sidewalks. Imagine what a two officers doing this could do:
http://portlandtribune.com/ttt/89-ne...off-the-street

I'd rather see my money go towards the second option. Let the fat cats of Portland fund the market instead and use our tax money to improve our little town.

[eric cantona]

Originally Posted by babs

The JBPM has published so little information as to what their final plans look like, it's hard to make any judgement as what the final product will look like. Is it going to have a ton of spaces that are rented out at market value? Will there be lower rates for farmers? Let's not just toss public money at projects just because we want to feel good about. Let's also not forget that at some point a request will come through for the millions it will cost to move the on/off ramps. You can count on the public to pay for that.

The 200k that Hales wants to give them in the budget could fund two police officers. These two additional officers could go a long way towards cleaning up the tent city on downtown's sidewalks. Imagine what a two officers doing this could do:
http://portlandtribune.com/ttt/89-ne...off-the-street

I'd rather see my money go towards the second option. Let the fat cats of Portland fund the market instead and use our tax money to improve our little town.

nitpicking here, but I would think that $200k would maybe get you one additional officer. I'd be surprised if that were enough for one when you factor in all the associated costs (salary, benefits, oversight, hardware, vehicle, etc.).

personally, I'm down with this small investment to developing a bigger vision of what this city can become.

[robocop]

Originally Posted by babs

Let the fat cats of Portland fund the market instead and use our tax money to improve our little town.

So you don't think that the JBPM would improve our town?

Go to Vimeo, type in "Portland," and filter under "latest." What you'll find are tons of videos made by younger tourists recapping their amazing vacations to Portland. They go to all of the regular places (Powell's, Salt & Straw, Voodoo, Blue Star, Pine State etc.), but they usually also make trips to Multnomah Falls or the coast.

These are all just from the past week:

https://vimeo.com/164383576
https://vimeo.com/165251111
https://vimeo.com/165068068
https://vimeo.com/165088129
https://vimeo.com/164928933
https://vimeo.com/164755913
https://vimeo.com/164601220

These people are renting our cars, using our public transportation, buying our food and beer, staying in our hotels/airbnb, and buying our tax-free goods and clothing to boot.

My point is this: Portland has become a destination for people from all over the country (and world) for its food, beer, scenery, and laid-back culture. I think it's smart for the city to invest in a world-class market that will be designed by a world-class architecture firm (Snøhetta) to help grow the city's reputation as an innovator in food and leisure culture. The JBPM will be a draw that will boost the economy in ways that benefit us all -- all the way down the janitors who'll mop up once the lights shut off.

I get your point that the JBPM should be able to launch entirely through private investment, but I do believe that as a whole the JBPM will be more beneficial to the city of Portland at large than it potentially would be to any single "fat cat" investor. The JBPM helps lure people from all over. Once here, they empty their pockets all over town.

(Also, your argument that two police officers would make some sort of world-changing dent in our homeless problem is naive and, honestly, pretty weak. The homeless issue and its implications run far deeper than simply having enough police officers to spray them down with hoses.)

[babs]

Originally Posted by robocop

So you don't think that the JBPM would improve our town?

Go to Vimeo, type in "Portland," and filter under "latest." What you'll find are tons of videos made by younger tourists recapping their amazing vacations to Portland. They go to all of the regular places (Powell's, Salt & Straw, Voodoo, Blue Star, Pine State etc.), but they usually also make trips to Multnomah Falls or the coast.

These are all just from the past week:

https://vimeo.com/164383576
https://vimeo.com/165251111
https://vimeo.com/165068068
https://vimeo.com/165088129
https://vimeo.com/164928933
https://vimeo.com/164755913
https://vimeo.com/164601220

These people are renting our cars, using our public transportation, buying our food and beer, staying in our hotels/airbnb, and buying our tax-free goods and clothing to boot.

My point is this: Portland has become a destination for people from all over the country (and world) for its food, beer, scenery, and laid-back culture. I think it's smart for the city to invest in a world-class market that will be designed by a world-class architecture firm (Snøhetta) to help grow the city's reputation as an innovator in food and leisure culture. The JBPM will be a draw that will boost the economy in ways that benefit us all -- all the way down the janitors who'll mop up once the lights shut off.

I get your point that the JBPM should be able to launch entirely through private investment, but I do believe that as a whole the JBPM will be more beneficial to the city of Portland at large than it potentially would be to any single "fat cat" investor. The JBPM helps lure people from all over. Once here, they empty their pockets all over town.

(Also, your argument that two police officers would make some sort of world-changing dent in our homeless problem is naive and, honestly, pretty weak. The homeless issue and its implications run far deeper than simply having enough police officers to spray them down with hoses.)

I agree with what you are saying. But if you read the article that I posted, I am not advocating spraying down the homeless. Maybe you get some thrill out of that but if we spent our money on helping the homeless get off the streets, it would be a win for the local economy. Reread the story I posted above before you leave comments like this.

I went to presentation that Ron Paul gave in 2000 about this market. 16 years later, its still a dream. No public money for this thing, sorry.

[MarkDaMan]

Originally Posted by babs

I agree with what you are saying. But if you read the article that I posted, I am not advocating spraying down the homeless. Maybe you get some thrill out of that but if we spent our money on helping the homeless get off the streets, it would be a win for the local economy. Reread the story I posted above before you leave comments like this.

I went to presentation that Ron Paul gave in 2000 about this market. 16 years later, its still a dream. No public money for this thing, sorry.

Let's not get too off topic. The homeless situation doesn't really relate to the JBPM and we could go in a million different directions if the question was, "instead of JBPM, what would we spend $200K on?"

There will most likely be public money contributed to this project.

[robocop]

Originally Posted by babs

But if you read the article that I posted, I am not advocating spraying down the homeless. Maybe you get some thrill out of that but if we spent our money on helping the homeless get off the streets, it would be a win for the local economy. Reread the story I posted above before you leave comments like this.

Well if you'd like to know, my wife is an actual social worker at a major Portland hospital, and she spends about 95% of her day assisting to the revolving door of homeless people who come in for myriad reasons. Not only are these members of the homeless community connected with every shelter and/or resource in the city/county, they are given free clothes, bus tickets, and mental health assistance.

Are you aware that there are entire teams of social workers whose sole job is to canvas the city every single day, visiting homeless camps and providing assistance to those in need? Believe me, there are humungous ongoing efforts taking place in this city to address the homeless issue. The problem is that if it doesn't have to do with Charlie Hales or the PPB it usually doesn't get any press...

I wasn't trying to imply that you were advocating for "hosing down the homeless," but more often than not the story about the Tigard Police and their efforts is the exception and not the rule. All I meant was that simply adding two police officers in hopes of them playing Batman and Robin to the homeless community is not going to alleviate the issue. My problem with what you said is rooted solely in your simplistic approach to such a complex problem. There are people who devote their entire lives to helping the homeless community find access to food, shelter, and a sense of comfort.

[robocop]

Originally Posted by MarkDaMan

Let's not get too off topic.

Sorry about that!

[babs]

Originally Posted by robocop

Well if you'd like to know, my wife is an actual social worker at a major Portland hospital, and she spends about 95% of her day assisting to the revolving door of homeless people who come in for myriad reasons. Not only are these members of the homeless community connected with every shelter and/or resource in the city/county, they are given free clothes, bus tickets, and mental health assistance.

Are you aware that there are entire teams of social workers whose sole job is to canvas the city every single day, visiting homeless camps and providing assistance to those in need? Believe me, there are humungous ongoing efforts taking place in this city to address the homeless issue. The problem is that if it doesn't have to do with Charlie Hales or the PPB it usually doesn't get any press...

I wasn't trying to imply that you were advocating for "hosing down the homeless," but more often than not the story about the Tigard Police and their efforts is the exception and not the rule. All I meant was that simply adding two police officers in hopes of them playing Batman and Robin to the homeless community is not going to alleviate the issue. My problem with what you said is rooted solely in your simplistic approach to such a complex problem. There are people who devote their entire lives to helping the homeless community find access to food, shelter, and a sense of comfort.

My Father-in-Law is homeless and has struggled with mental illness. So I know the issue. That's why I'd rather see public money spent on that rather than a food hall that Portland's elite can easily pay for.

[robocop]

Originally Posted by babs

My Father-in-Law is homeless and has struggled with mental illness. So I know the issue. That's why I'd rather see public money spent on that rather than a food hall that Portland's elite can easily pay for.

Fair enough!

[58rhodes]

It shouldnt be funded by taxpayers-period--let the people who use it pay for it.

[PDX City-State]

I think you guys are missing the point on the Beard Market.

First, it's nothing like Pine Street Market. Pine Street Market is nine restaurants under one roof and some common area seating. It's the middle ground between a full restaurant buildout and a food cart pod.

The James Beard Public Market could truly be an important civic project--one that revitalizes the waterfront, is used as an education and research center for food access and security issues, is a visible symbol of Oregon Agriculture to the world, and would add another opportunity for Oregon producers to bring product to market. There are some pretty high civic ideals embedded in that project, and that's one reason why it's taken so long to get off the ground--because Ron and the other planners refused to compromise.

I think the investment in the market would generate enough tourism dollars that it would more than pay for itself.