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  #6481  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2017, 9:09 PM
YEG YEG is offline
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Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
Your spinning the information into more than it really is. The WS New Frequency Schedule shows a net gain of 6 flights for YEG over the previous winter schedule. YYZ sees a gain of 60 and YYC a gain of 29 flights per week - not taking into account positive changes from seasonal services. Meaning YEG got crumbs from WS.

Not sure the Edmonton business community will like a late afternoon arrival in LAX flight. Maybe WS wants to kill the flight?


https://www.westjet.com/en-ca/travel...ight-schedules
That link doesn't even have the additional Ottawa/Hamilton flights.
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  #6482  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2017, 9:19 PM
TheGreatestX TheGreatestX is offline
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Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
We all know AC provides terrible service to Edmonton.

The issue of this hour is the pittance increase that WS provided Edmonton in 2017/18 Winter Schedule. There was NO press announcement by WS other than the weekly to HUL- but The GreatestX spun information out - gleamed from what ever sources and failed to provide a source link and compare year to year. Maybe he will respond and provide a source link for any actual flight increases over 2016/2017 - particularly new routes. Look at the WS weblink I provided that shows the new frequency changes - at least what WS are presently showing.

https://www.westjet.com/en-ca/travel...ight-schedules
What did I spin? I posted the frequency changes that I noted compared to last year. As YEG pointed out, your link doesn't even include the Ottawa flight, which is only mentioned in EIA's statement in the press release:

"On the business side, year-round service linking the provincial and national capitals is a major addition!"

Also per that press release,

"WestJet will increase service from Edmonton by 24 weekly flights this winter".

So it's not a gain of 6, it's 24. 20 of which I found by looking at and comparing the schedules between the two years. I was reluctant to even post on here, and now I see it was a mistake.
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  #6483  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2017, 9:26 PM
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  #6484  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2017, 9:37 PM
Cage Cage is offline
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Originally Posted by ExcaliburKid View Post
I'll bite, the LA departure time change sucks ass
Was so nice to fly out early, drive out to our hotel in Anaheim and off to Disneyland by early afternoon (only did this once, but had hoped to make it an annual winter trip based on the convenient time)
Looking at the overall WS schedule at LAX, my guesstimate is that YEG-LAX got moved due to lack of gate space at LAX T2 now that DL is operating 14 international destinations from LAX.

11am to noon WS needs 3 gates at LAX and all are quick turns. T2 has 10 gates, however will temporarily lose 1 gate to construction of the airside corridor between T2 and T3. Additionally, in WS land a transborder lower 48 departure before 8am is unheard of because WS market does not appeal to the early morning period.
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  #6485  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2017, 9:57 PM
EdmTrekker EdmTrekker is offline
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Originally Posted by hilman View Post
Good on WJ for adding the Ottawa and Hamilton flights year round, those are nice connections to have.

I must have missed the Year Round WS announcement. Do you have a link to it? I see Hamilton Airport don't list is on their website. Year round must be new?

http://flyhamilton.ca/passenger/flights/airlines/
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  #6486  
Old Posted Yesterday, 3:44 AM
mode mode is offline
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I can support both sides of this Westjet punchup. On one hand Westjet always adds more services at their Base stations (they still do not use terms like "Hub") than they do at Edmonton, yet on the other hand they are not quite a Hub-And-Spoke operator so that large stations like Edmonton still get more than they would if Westjet was a classic "Hub" airline.

In order to tone down the conversation a bit let me point out that Westjet may well make more announcements later on. Newleaf is still with us, although I notice today that their website has today started rebranding them as "Flair Airlines". When Flair took them over a month or so ago, there were many brave words about how things were up and away. There has not been much since, but I notice they are advertising for new pilots, including for their Edmonton base, and one place mentions that they have a couple of more aeroplanes coming in next month. If so they might be going to try to make a go of it.

Make no mistake, if Flair (or any other new player) adds flights next week or next month, Westjet will announce identical flights perhaps within a few hours. If you remember this is what happened last time. In short, if any new capacity comes on, Westjet will double it.

I am not saying Flair will be a success; it is still hard to start a new airline in this country. However, for Edmonton a new airline might be very interesting. Some foreign airlines, such as IAG, the owners of British Airways and others, may be annoyed that they have no access to Canadian centres outside the largest four. A third domestic carrier might give them that access, perhaps in exchange for a capital injection. Of course, I use IAG only as an example. Other major airlines, like Delta, do minority shareholdings in foreign airlines for similar motives.

At any rate Edmonton is not badly positioned in my opinion for many of the changes that may come in the air travel industry. Westjet will add more. Otherwise someone new might come in.
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  #6487  
Old Posted Yesterday, 4:46 AM
EdmTrekker EdmTrekker is offline
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Privatization will drive change - should be interesting to see how this plays out. The sooner the better.
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  #6488  
Old Posted Yesterday, 5:13 AM
Rocket252 Rocket252 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mode View Post
I can support both sides of this Westjet punchup. On one hand Westjet always adds more services at their Base stations (they still do not use terms like "Hub") than they do at Edmonton, yet on the other hand they are not quite a Hub-And-Spoke operator so that large stations like Edmonton still get more than they would if Westjet was a classic "Hub" airline.

In order to tone down the conversation a bit let me point out that Westjet may well make more announcements later on. Newleaf is still with us, although I notice today that their website has today started rebranding them as "Flair Airlines". When Flair took them over a month or so ago, there were many brave words about how things were up and away. There has not been much since, but I notice they are advertising for new pilots, including for their Edmonton base, and one place mentions that they have a couple of more aeroplanes coming in next month. If so they might be going to try to make a go of it.

Make no mistake, if Flair (or any other new player) adds flights next week or next month, Westjet will announce identical flights perhaps within a few hours. If you remember this is what happened last time. In short, if any new capacity comes on, Westjet will double it.

I am not saying Flair will be a success; it is still hard to start a new airline in this country. However, for Edmonton a new airline might be very interesting. Some foreign airlines, such as IAG, the owners of British Airways and others, may be annoyed that they have no access to Canadian centres outside the largest four. A third domestic carrier might give them that access, perhaps in exchange for a capital injection. Of course, I use IAG only as an example. Other major airlines, like Delta, do minority shareholdings in foreign airlines for similar motives.

At any rate Edmonton is not badly positioned in my opinion for many of the changes that may come in the air travel industry. Westjet will add more. Otherwise someone new might come in.
You may be right that Westjet is not a complete hub and spoke operator but as they grow they appear to be trending that way which is not good news for YEG. Do they have some provincial allegence to YEG - probably not - it's a business after all and Westjet is in it to be profitable.
With respect to their route announcements they appear to be reactionary to Flair - number one - to eliminate the third airline and of course Air Canada - number two - to maintain a more prominent position in YEG. And again that is according to the plan based on their model. If they deviated from that model and surprised us with an SFO or ORD That would show it is interested in YEG being more than just a spoke.
With respect to foreign airlines and access to the Canadian market I am assuming that would require government legislation to deregulate and I do not see the present Liberal government doing that during their term in office. So if in some small measure Flair can push Westjet into providing service to YEG it would not normally provide great I think that is a good thing.
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  #6489  
Old Posted Yesterday, 6:02 AM
Rogie Rogie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mode View Post
I can support both sides of this Westjet punchup. On one hand Westjet always adds more services at their Base stations (they still do not use terms like "Hub") than they do at Edmonton, yet on the other hand they are not quite a Hub-And-Spoke operator so that large stations like Edmonton still get more than they would if Westjet was a classic "Hub" airline.
Alas, Westjet may no longer be so different in their business model. In its news release today, Westjet talks of its hubs in Toronto, Vancouver and Calgary.

"The additional flights deliver optimized service for both the business and leisure traveller and give Canadians greater connectivity into and out of WestJet hubs in Vancouver, Calgary and Toronto, providing more flight frequency between key routes, better scheduling and greater access from smaller airports into the wider WestJet network."
http://westjet2.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=1251

Not so long ago, Edmonton had more flights and seats than Vancouver, now, it's not even one of Westjet's identified hubs. Unfortunate.
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  #6490  
Old Posted Yesterday, 8:22 AM
Acey Acey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
YYZ sees a gain of 60 and YYC a gain of 29 flights per week - not taking into account positive changes from seasonal services. Meaning YEG got crumbs from WS.
With the exception of Delta in Seattle a few years back where they just exploded on the scene and declared war on Alaska, these type of announcements tend to add frequencies relative to the existing size of the station. YYZ and YYC are obviously bigger stations to begin with, so maybe a more reasonable way to assess WS' true level of hatred for the capital region would be to determine the percentage increase in available seat miles? I'm not doing the math but that would obviously make it skew less in favour of the others, possibly to the point that one might no longer consider it to be "crumbs".

Quote:
Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
Not sure the Edmonton business community will like a late afternoon arrival in LAX flight.
I'd agree that they won't, but consider that the leisure traffic on the route (i.e. the majority) is enough to sustain it. From seeing loads to LAX and also seeing the number of people that connect through YYC onto WS1512, I'm confident that even if WS is trying to kill the flight (which seems like a statement based on anger as opposed to logic) this time change won't be the thing that does it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexcaban View Post
...a fleet of 119, 91 destinations is not really a major airline in my opinion especially if only 3 of those 91 destinations are outside North America.
There is no real metric as to what constitutes a major airline, but consider that Southwest Airlines has over 700 airplanes and flies to only about 10 countries none of which are outside of North/Central America... but they lead market share in the United States. I don't think anyone would argue that Southwest is not a major airline because of their lack of international destinations.

WestJet carries some 35% of the market in Canada, which is second place. Other airlines in a similar position include Delta and BA, undoubtedly both major. To refute this particular angle is to say that Canada itself is not a significant country, which I suppose one could do.
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  #6491  
Old Posted Yesterday, 10:50 AM
Rocket252 Rocket252 is offline
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From looking at Westjet's announcements for not only YEG but other cities and taking into account other posters comments I have come to some conclusions.
- Westjet clearly sees an issue with Flair Airlines in Edmonton and wants to nip this at the bud so to speak before it grows into a bigger threat. Increased frequencies to Winnipeg, Abbotsford, and Kelowna, although Flair discontinued that city, plus making Hamilton year round are all an effort to compete with Flair.
- Westjet's new flight to Huatulco. Sunwing and Air Transat already fly to this destination from YEG over the winter season. Westjet probably sees value in trying to compete with those two regarding this route hence it is not a big inconvenience for them to allocate a plane once a week to fly there.
- Westjet's flight to LAX moved to the afternoon. I see this as a precursor to cancellation of this flight. Whatever morning LA business traffic out of YEG will be funnelled through YYC or YVR which leaves tourist traffic that Westjet feels may be appropriate for an afternoon flight. Westjet will run this schedule over the winter season hoping for better loads, then if they see good results they will keep it there, if not then they will cancel it.
- is Westjet feeding YEG crumbs? I would say yes when you look at the overall flight increase frequencies they are providing to their hubs amd how they are building them up. It is clear they are moving further and further towards a 3 hub model.
- YYC new addition to Belize. Why would this flight not succeed? Westjet can draw passengers from 4 provinces - correct me if I am wrong but YVR has no flights to Belize- and be able to fill a plane once per week. Sun worshipers tired of the same Mexican holiday would enjoy the new route. A no brainer by Westjet here.
- Westjet year round to Ottawa. I assume this is to compete with AC - two non hub cities connected together.
- no attempt at a new route like ORD or SFO. Not according to Westjet's business model. All flights to those cities go through their hubs now and for the foreseeable future.

So in summary is it a good thing for YEG to get more frequencies- certainly - better than losing flights - but there is a lot of sizzle with no steak here. It is what it is. We are stuck as a spoke city in a 3-4 hub city country and have to deal with it until we grow enough internally to warrant more interest from the major airlines.
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  #6492  
Old Posted Yesterday, 11:52 AM
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In my opinion morning flights to the west coast are already covered for business. It's the afternoon flights that companies have been asking for especially if they are US based. Afternoon flight also allows for more funnelling via connections. This thread has been the same negative group or tone for 15 years. One would think they would have learned something besides complaining by now.
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  #6493  
Old Posted Yesterday, 12:04 PM
Acey Acey is offline
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Originally Posted by Rocket252 View Post
- no attempt at a new route like ORD or SFO. Not according to Westjet's business model.
lol. SFO would fail MISERABLY given that UA bailed with an RJ to their megahub, and WestJet would be feeding nothing. You should see the WS loads on YYC-IAH that feed nothing... they're horrific. Like 30% LF type of horrific. Correct me if I'm misinterpreting you... the implication of your "not according to WestJet's business model" phrasing is that if they flew YEG-SFO it'd be thriving but they choose not to?

Even YYC-DFW is not so hot and you can earn WS bucks on AA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket252 View Post
Westjet's new flight to Huatulco. Sunwing and Air Transat already fly to this destination from YEG over the winter season. Westjet probably sees value in trying to compete with those two regarding this route hence it is not a big inconvenience for them to allocate a plane once a week to fly there.
I still think the big Rouge expansion to Mexico out of YYC is a factor here.
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  #6494  
Old Posted Yesterday, 2:10 PM
Rocket252 Rocket252 is offline
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Originally Posted by Acey View Post
lol. SFO would fail MISERABLY given that UA bailed with an RJ to their megahub, and WestJet would be feeding nothing. You should see the WS loads on YYC-IAH that feed nothing... they're horrific. Like 30% LF type of horrific. Correct me if I'm misinterpreting you... the implication of your "not according to WestJet's business model" phrasing is that if they flew YEG-SFO it'd be thriving but they choose not to?

Even YYC-DFW is not so hot and you can earn WS bucks on AA.



I still think the big Rouge expansion to Mexico out of YYC is a factor here.
What I meant was it would be nice if WS would offer a SFO flight but their business model is not going to allow it at this time.

Not sure why you think a Rouge expansion affects the YEG HUX flight . I see it as more providing competition to the existing flights at YEG
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  #6495  
Old Posted Yesterday, 2:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Rocket252 View Post
no attempt at a new route like ORD or SFO. Not according to Westjet's business model. All flights to those cities go through their hubs now and for the foreseeable future.
WestJet doesn't even fly to ORD or SFO from any of their hubs in the winter so just stop.
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  #6496  
Old Posted Yesterday, 4:35 PM
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Quote:
NewLeaf Travel name changed to Flair Airlines

Edmonton Journal EDMONTON JOURNAL

Discount airline seat reseller NewLeaf Travel marked its first anniversary Tuesday by changing its name to Flair Airlines.

NewLeaf was bought June 7 by Kelowna, B.C.- based Flair Airlines, which had been supplying NewLeaf with aircraft and crews, in a move designed to bring airline operations and marketing under one roof.

Over the past year, Flair has flown 320,000 people and completed more than 2,600 flights across Canada, according to a news release.

Flair Airlines says it intends to expand its route network over the coming weeks, although details haven’t been released yet.

Celebrations with passengers are being held Tuesday at airports where Flair is departing, and the company is offering an 11 per cent discount on all bookings made during the day.

Boarding passes will carry the new name, which will also be shown at all airports. The current schedule will continue to operate as planned.

When NewLeaf was started in July 2016, it positioned itself as an ultra-low-cost option that would undercut Air Canada and WestJet on price.

Six months after it launched, NewLeaf dropped several cities from its schedule. It ditched plans to fly to Phoenix and Orlando, blaming WestJet for squeezing it out of the market.
http://edmontonjournal.com/business/...flair-airlines
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  #6497  
Old Posted Yesterday, 7:05 PM
Acey Acey is offline
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Originally Posted by Rocket252 View Post
What I meant was it would be nice if WS would offer a SFO flight but their business model is not going to allow it at this time.
No, it wouldn't be nice, because it would fail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket252 View Post
Not sure why you think a Rouge expansion affects the YEG HUX flight . I see it as more providing competition to the existing flights at YEG
I'm not saying it's the sole reason, but many people fly YEG-YYC-HUX which you are not taking into account, and it is analysis of these numbers that would prompt WS to launch the flight in the first place. A new YEG-HUX flight bolsters the entire Alberta-HUX system for WS, even if not directly out of YYC. In that same vain, without knowing the demographic of people on WS1422, nor the number of people flying YEG-YYC-LAX on a given day, claims that "shifting WS1422 to the afternoon means it's going to be cancelled" are baseless. If you have better data than that which I have seen on the number of YEG originating pax on 1510 and 1512, then sure... but I feel like this is not the case based on your belief that YYC-BZE was a "no brainer" of a launch.

Last edited by Acey; Yesterday at 7:15 PM.
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  #6498  
Old Posted Yesterday, 7:40 PM
Rocket252 Rocket252 is offline
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Originally Posted by Acey View Post
No, it wouldn't be nice, because it would fail.



I'm not saying it's the sole reason, but many people fly YEG-YYC-HUX which you are not taking into account, and it is analysis of these numbers that would prompt WS to launch the flight in the first place. A new YEG-HUX flight bolsters the entire Alberta-HUX system for WS, even if not directly out of YYC. In that same vain, without knowing the demographic of people on WS1422, nor the number of people flying YEG-YYC-LAX on a given day, claims that "shifting WS1422 to the afternoon means it's going to be cancelled" are baseless. If you have better data than that which I have seen on the number of YEG originating pax on 1510 and 1512, then sure... but I feel like this is not the case based on your belief that YYC-BZE was a "no brainer" of a launch.
If you have all the data and the answers then it is a mute point and the argument ends. I am just giving my opinion as an average citizen with no insider info but a little common sense.
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  #6499  
Old Posted Yesterday, 7:48 PM
Acey Acey is offline
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Originally Posted by Rocket252 View Post
If you have all the data and the answers then it is a mute point and the argument ends. I am just giving my opinion as an average citizen with no insider info but a little common sense.
It's not just you, and it's not that I necessarily have answers. My point is merely that elsewhere on the internet people generally question why things are done and assume there is a reason for it before defaulting to the absolute worst case scenario.

My posts are merely pragmatic and appear out of place in what is otherwise a cesspool of doom and hatred of life in this thread, aside from the odd injection from another poster agreeing that it is overly negative.
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