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  #2161  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2014, 8:12 PM
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Originally Posted by travis3000 View Post
Calgary on the other hand, I wouldn't be caught holding hands with another guy from my past experience. But then again... Calgary and Montreal are two different cities when it comes to acceptance of homosexuality. And yes I have stats to support that claim. *Let the Calgary posters go ballistic. I just dealt heaven on earth a blow*
No you're just trolling and you know it.

People here aren't the crazy macho rednecks everyone thinks, I see guys holding hands all the time and have never seen them beaten up or even harassed. You might be surprised to know that we have a pride parade and city hall flew the rainbow flag during the Olympics. So lets try not to be so inflammatory...
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  #2162  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2014, 8:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Calgarian View Post
No you're just trolling and you know it.

People here aren't the crazy macho rednecks everyone thinks, I see guys holding hands all the time and have never seen them beaten up or even harassed. You might be surprised to know that we have a pride parade and city hall flew the rainbow flag during the Olympics. So lets try not to be so inflammatory...
My local town of 15,000 people in rural Ontario flies the rainbow flag every year. Politically, Calgary has come a long way in this regard. But the ground work still lags. If you are trying to suggest the mentality in Calgary is the same as Montreal you really need to get out more. I've been in Calgary many times, same as Montreal. There IS a difference with this. Survey and poll after poll will affirm my point. The province of Quebec not only accepts gay marriage by a much wider margin than Alberta, it also supports the homosexual lifestyle at a much greater percentage than Alberta. I'm not trying to suggest Calgary is a Russia. That would be taking my comment out of context. But a gay couple would generally feel more comfortable walking around being physical in Montreal, than any city in Alberta. It's not a huge difference, but a noticeable one that me myself have noted. I have real life experience to back this up. I'm not some non educated eastern living idiot who is relying on stereotypes.

But again, this goes back to a point I've made multiple times in this forum. You simply cannot say anything negative about Alberta. The posters are too sensitive. Whether you discuss weather/climate, views on social issues, building material quality, public transportation, taxes, activities to do, shopping choices, etc.... everything is always better in Alberta. If you dare challenge that, many posters from this area go crazy and accuse you of trolling. You gotta learn to accept that no place is perfect, including the area you live.
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  #2163  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2014, 8:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Calgarian View Post
No you're just trolling and you know it.

People here aren't the crazy macho rednecks everyone thinks, I see guys holding hands all the time and have never seen them beaten up or even harassed. You might be surprised to know that we have a pride parade and city hall flew the rainbow flag during the Olympics. So lets try not to be so inflammatory...
Most of Canada is pretty good by our own standards in this regard. And all of it is excellent by world standards.

But don't forget that flag campaign started here. Calgary initially refused (i submitted the request, which was denied - but they invited me to submit a request with more notice in the future) and only came on board once the campaign spread from St. John's to numerous other cities. It's not really a good example of Calgarian exceptionalism. But they still joined in, so props to them.

But, then, Toronto refused too. Stupid Ford. They got one up despite him, though.
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  #2164  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2014, 8:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Rusty van Reddick View Post
No. Calgary's record year for both number of murders and murder RATE which is a far more relevant stat in a city that only sees its population increase was 37 murders and that was in 1978. The murder rate that year was 7.3 per 100,000, more than triple Calgary's average murder rate over the last several years and more than QUADRUPLE the murder rates in 2011-2013.
Hey Rusty, do you have a source for those stats? I can never find any historic homicide/crime numbers for Calgary from just googling.
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  #2165  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2014, 8:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Calgarian View Post
No you're just trolling and you know it.

People here aren't the crazy macho rednecks everyone thinks, I see guys holding hands all the time and have never seen them beaten up or even harassed. You might be surprised to know that we have a pride parade and city hall flew the rainbow flag during the Olympics. So lets try not to be so inflammatory...
I know people who have had bad experiences in Calgary and actually I know of a few cases of bad experiences in Toronto as well. I don't have data, only anecdotes, but the fact is once a person has such a bad experience in a city, it is very very hard for that person to "trust" that city to be accepting again.

While I personally see Calgary (and Toronto for that matter) as a very welcoming and open place free of a lot of bigotry, we should recognize that unfortunately there are small minded idiots in all of our major (and minor) cities.
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  #2166  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2014, 8:41 PM
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[QUOTE=travis3000;6673723]My local town of 15,000 people in rural Ontario flies the rainbow flag every year. Politically, Calgary has come a long way in this regard. But the ground work still lags. If you are trying to suggest the mentality in Calgary is the same as Montreal you really need to get out more. I've been in Calgary many times, same as Montreal. There IS a difference with this. Survey and poll after poll will affirm my point. The province of Quebec not only accepts gay marriage by a much wider margin than Alberta, it also supports the homosexual lifestyle at a much greater percentage than Alberta. I'm not trying to suggest Calgary is a Russia. That would be taking my comment out of context. But a gay couple would generally feel more comfortable walking around being physical in Montreal, than any city in Alberta. It's not a huge difference, but a noticeable one that me myself have noted. I have real life experience to back this up. I'm not some non educated eastern living idiot who is relying on stereotypes. [\quote] I'm not going to read this because you are obviously trying to start a city vs city debate, and I'm not interested in that.

Quote:
But again, this goes back to a point I've made multiple times in this forum. You simply cannot say anything negative about Alberta. The posters are too sensitive. Whether you discuss weather/climate, views on social issues, building material quality, public transportation, taxes, activities to do, shopping choices, etc.... everything is always better in Alberta. If you dare challenge that, many posters from this area go crazy and accuse you of trolling. You gotta learn to accept that no place is perfect, including the area you live.
You can't say anything bad about any city on here because they all get defensive, Calgary is no different than Montreal, Halifax or Winnipeg in this regard. We love our city and defend it when people bash it or spread misinformation. Posts like yours are obviously trying to inflame people in order to prove to yourself that we are angry or whatever and it's pathetic.

Anyway I'm not going to argue about it..
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  #2167  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2014, 8:46 PM
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Originally Posted by geotag277 View Post
I know people who have had bad experiences in Calgary and actually I know of a few cases of bad experiences in Toronto as well. I don't have data, only anecdotes, but the fact is once a person has such a bad experience in a city, it is very very hard for that person to "trust" that city to be accepting again.

While I personally see Calgary (and Toronto for that matter) as a very welcoming and open place free of a lot of bigotry, we should recognize that unfortunately there are small minded idiots in all of our major (and minor) cities.
I have a friend that got beat up for being anglo in Montreal, does that mean Montreal is bad? no, it means he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and there are douchebags everywhere. I have another friend that got beat up in Vancouver for wearing an Oilers jersey on Granville after the Canucks lost, that doesn't mean Vancouver is a bad place, there are just some silly people that like to start shit, just as you pointed out. I really don't get why some people try to paint a place as bad just because of a thing that happened to someone they know one time.
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  #2168  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2014, 8:48 PM
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Originally Posted by travis3000 View Post
Montreal is generally a very safe city. You have to keep in mind that half of their annual murders are targeted mob hits. Subtract that and you have one of the safest cities in all of North America. After spending the weekend there, I can attest to this. Never once did I feel unsafe , even walking around at 2am with my boyfriend holding hands.
It's not really fair to subtract organized crime-related violence in only one city. Organized crime is responsible for many of the murders across the country. Sure, Ontario's Calabrian mafia is fairly low-key compared to the Sicilian mafia in Quebec, but we have our own issues with front-line street gangs (who are - unfortunately - younger, sloppier and more likely to injure/kill innocent bystanders). Regardless, I've never felt unsafe anywhere I've been in this country with a few exceptions where there was an actual present threat*.

There are some areas of Toronto I wouldn't feel safe holding my (hypothetical) boyfriend's hand though, especially late at night. Those areas are fortunately getting smaller - there's certainly few of them left in the old City. In general, I find displays of public affection (straight, gay, what have you) will get you some strange looks in this town though. We don't have a reputation for being a cold cold people for nothing.

*I was a reckless kid once and got myself involved in some pretty sticky situations that would've been entirely avoidable had I been a bit more sensible.
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  #2169  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2014, 8:52 PM
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It's the same here as far as PDA goes - except in the most intimate settings (bars, parks, etc.).

Female friends often walk around in the Downtown with arms linked, and friends always greet each other with a hug and usually kiss, but real PDA between couples isn't a common sight on the streets.

I've only ever done it a few times, I've only ever seen others do it a few times.
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  #2170  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2014, 8:59 PM
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Originally Posted by travis3000 View Post
Montreal is generally a very safe city. You have to keep in mind that half of their annual murders are targeted mob hits. Subtract that and you have one of the safest cities in all of North America. After spending the weekend there, I can attest to this. Never once did I feel unsafe , even walking around at 2am with my boyfriend holding hands.
Not to get between this pissing match but if you read the story it details that mob hits in 2012 happened 5 times vs twice in 2011. For the 18 killings related to the Italian mafia, biker gangs and street gangs, that leaves 13 related to the gangs so it doesn't back up the statement of half of all Montreal's murders are "mob hits"
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  #2171  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2014, 9:04 PM
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Originally Posted by wg_flamip View Post
It's not really fair to subtract organized crime-related violence in only one city. Organized crime is responsible for many of the murders across the country.
Great point! A lot of the violence in Greater Vancouver is organised crime, look at the Surrey Six for example. This is why it's silly for the media to hype it up like it's making our cities super dangerous or something, Canada is a ridiculously safe place from coast to coast.
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  #2172  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2014, 2:23 AM
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Some of these factors are at play in certain northern Ontario cities like Thunder Bay, with the resulting higher than average violent crime rates.
Thunder Bay, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, Regina, Prince George, and to a lesser extent Edmonton, and all of the smaller cities in the general area (it excludes Southern Alberta and BC), which I sort of refer to as the "Thunder Bay to Prince George Corridor", all have one thing in common: 10% of the population is native, and 10% of that population lives in a kind of poverty that is probably unheard of to many Canadians today. Aboriginal people in remote communities often live in even worse conditions than those in urban areas, and poverty tends to be more severe, exacerbated by poverty.

Thunder Bay has more calls for public drunkenness than Toronto. That isn't a percentage figure, either. In terms of the actual times someone calls 911 to report an inebriated individual in public, Thunder Bay beats Toronto on a pure numbers basis. It totals about 4,000 a year, or nearly a third of our total crime. Most of those calls are coming from the same community of about 150 homeless people who abuse substances like hairspray, mouthwash and hand sanitizer (and sometimes more dangerous things, like rubbing alcohol) to get drunk. Almost all are either residential school survivors or descendents of survivors.

A lot of people have recently starting referring to them as zombies. In many ways, that's what they are. They're not really alive anymore, but they're not dead yet. Sometimes I find one passed out in the grass pleading for death, and people like that being rushed to hospital with police escorts make up a large portion of our ambulance trips. We put 13 homeless people into a substance abuse treatment facility for the past year and we've seen a measurable decrease in ambulance calls as a result.

After the public drunkenness issue, we have a serious domestic violence issue, again primarily committed by and against native people who are living in conditions of dire poverty as a result of their past experiences. Almost all of our homicides this year were committed by and against people who do not actually live in the city, they were simply here when the disputes (which happen often) escalated to the point of assault causing death. The bulk of the city's 911 calls (they've said 80 to 90%) happen at the same 2% of addresses.

This isn't something police can (nor should) deal with, but there is no provincial or national strategy to cope with it. The western provinces have more responsive provincial governments because it's affecting their largest cities, but Thunder Bay is Ontario's ~20th largest at this point, so we basically are stuck dealing with it on our own, and most of the time the whole debate devolves into the mayor complaining at First Nations leadership (or vice versa) while the local racist community just spreads misinformation about tax exemptions and suggests there is no problem.

And before you accuse me of being racist for saying this; yes, this situation is racist. It disproportionately affects native people and because of their race the situation is largely ignored or taken out of context. You cannot cure addicts by putting them in jail, and you cannot reduce violent crime when more than 95% of it is happening between people who know each other in their own homes, but no one in leadership positions (other than the police chief and the occasional city councillor) seems to understand that. Our police even admitted that they're largely powerless to do anything about the crime rate because it's all happening due to homelessness (which isn't a police responsibility) or inside private homes, where they can't patrol.


Of course, not all crimes are committed by native people, and not all native people commit crimes. Most native people I know and see on a regular basis (something like 95% of them) are just like everyone else, living normal middle class lives.
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  #2173  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2014, 1:32 PM
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Originally Posted by vid View Post
Thunder Bay, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, Regina, Prince George, and to a lesser extent Edmonton, and all of the smaller cities in the general area (it excludes Southern Alberta and BC), which I sort of refer to as the "Thunder Bay to Prince George Corridor", all have one thing in common: 10% of the population is native, and 10% of that population lives in a kind of poverty that is probably unheard of to many Canadians today. Aboriginal people in remote communities often live in even worse conditions than those in urban areas, and poverty tends to be more severe, exacerbated by poverty.

Thunder Bay has more calls for public drunkenness than Toronto. That isn't a percentage figure, either. In terms of the actual times someone calls 911 to report an inebriated individual in public, Thunder Bay beats Toronto on a pure numbers basis. It totals about 4,000 a year, or nearly a third of our total crime. Most of those calls are coming from the same community of about 150 homeless people who abuse substances like hairspray, mouthwash and hand sanitizer (and sometimes more dangerous things, like rubbing alcohol) to get drunk. Almost all are either residential school survivors or descendents of survivors.

A lot of people have recently starting referring to them as zombies. In many ways, that's what they are. They're not really alive anymore, but they're not dead yet. Sometimes I find one passed out in the grass pleading for death, and people like that being rushed to hospital with police escorts make up a large portion of our ambulance trips. We put 13 homeless people into a substance abuse treatment facility for the past year and we've seen a measurable decrease in ambulance calls as a result.

After the public drunkenness issue, we have a serious domestic violence issue, again primarily committed by and against native people who are living in conditions of dire poverty as a result of their past experiences. Almost all of our homicides this year were committed by and against people who do not actually live in the city, they were simply here when the disputes (which happen often) escalated to the point of assault causing death. The bulk of the city's 911 calls (they've said 80 to 90%) happen at the same 2% of addresses.

This isn't something police can (nor should) deal with, but there is no provincial or national strategy to cope with it. The western provinces have more responsive provincial governments because it's affecting their largest cities, but Thunder Bay is Ontario's ~20th largest at this point, so we basically are stuck dealing with it on our own, and most of the time the whole debate devolves into the mayor complaining at First Nations leadership (or vice versa) while the local racist community just spreads misinformation about tax exemptions and suggests there is no problem.

And before you accuse me of being racist for saying this; yes, this situation is racist. It disproportionately affects native people and because of their race the situation is largely ignored or taken out of context. You cannot cure addicts by putting them in jail, and you cannot reduce violent crime when more than 95% of it is happening between people who know each other in their own homes, but no one in leadership positions (other than the police chief and the occasional city councillor) seems to understand that. Our police even admitted that they're largely powerless to do anything about the crime rate because it's all happening due to homelessness (which isn't a police responsibility) or inside private homes, where they can't patrol.


Of course, not all crimes are committed by native people, and not all native people commit crimes. Most native people I know and see on a regular basis (something like 95% of them) are just like everyone else, living normal middle class lives.
According to relatives of mine, you are also seeing these types of social problems more and more in Timmins where the aboriginal population has increased substantially in the past 10-15 years as native people relocate there from more isolated communities.
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  #2174  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2014, 1:46 PM
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My local town of 15,000 people in rural Ontario flies the rainbow flag every year. Politically, Calgary has come a long way in this regard. But the ground work still lags. If you are trying to suggest the mentality in Calgary is the same as Montreal you really need to get out more. I've been in Calgary many times, same as Montreal. There IS a difference with this. Survey and poll after poll will affirm my point. The province of Quebec not only accepts gay marriage by a much wider margin than Alberta, it also supports the homosexual lifestyle at a much greater percentage than Alberta. I'm not trying to suggest Calgary is a Russia. That would be taking my comment out of context. But a gay couple would generally feel more comfortable walking around being physical in Montreal, than any city in Alberta. It's not a huge difference, but a noticeable one that me myself have noted. I have real life experience to back this up. I'm not some non educated eastern living idiot who is relying on stereotypes.

But again, this goes back to a point I've made multiple times in this forum. You simply cannot say anything negative about Alberta. The posters are too sensitive. Whether you discuss weather/climate, views on social issues, building material quality, public transportation, taxes, activities to do, shopping choices, etc.... everything is always better in Alberta. If you dare challenge that, many posters from this area go crazy and accuse you of trolling. You gotta learn to accept that no place is perfect, including the area you live.
I think that Quebec is obviously a pretty live and let live kind of place when it comes to sexuality, and this openness simply extends to homosexuality.

And anyway, stats can't tell you how you should feel about a particular place, and if you should feel more at ease in one or the other. "Feel" isn't about statistics.

Of course, this doesn't mean that isolated incidents can't happen in even the most gay-friendly of places.

For example, this was in the news this week in Montreal:
http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/longueuil...flag-1.1936992

Of course this was vociferously condemned and deplored by everyone and their uncle here.
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  #2175  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2014, 1:48 PM
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I have a friend that got beat up for being anglo in Montreal, does that mean Montreal is bad? no, it means he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and there are douchebags everywhere. .
True, but no one would dispute that anti-anglo sentiment is something that you might encounter once in a blue moon in Montreal or in Quebec.
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  #2176  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2014, 1:50 PM
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Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post
It's the same here as far as PDA goes - except in the most intimate settings (bars, parks, etc.).

Female friends often walk around in the Downtown with arms linked, and friends always greet each other with a hug and usually kiss, but real PDA between couples isn't a common sight on the streets.

I've only ever done it a few times, I've only ever seen others do it a few times.
And because PDAs are more common in general in a place like Montreal, it follows that PDAs by gay couples may also be more common in that city as well.
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Old Posted Jul 30, 2014, 1:53 PM
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Most of Canada is pretty good by our own standards in this regard. And all of it is excellent by world standards.

But don't forget that flag campaign started here. Calgary initially refused (i submitted the request, which was denied - but they invited me to submit a request with more notice in the future) and only came on board once the campaign spread from St. John's to numerous other cities. It's not really a good example of Calgarian exceptionalism. But they still joined in, so props to them.

.
Calgary and Alberta are not seething cauldrons of homophobia by any stretch, but there was also that thing about gay-straight alliances in schools that was defeated in the legislature.

If you were to rank the most gay-friendly provinces it wouldn't be at the top of the list, although the differences from number 1 to number 10 aren't that great either in the grand scheme of things.
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  #2178  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2014, 4:34 PM
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For example, this was in the news this week in Montreal:
http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/longueuil...flag-1.1936992.
Thats Longueuil though. I doubt you'd see something like this on the island though obviously there's intolerance everywhere.
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  #2179  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2014, 4:36 PM
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Thats Longueuil though. I doubt you'd see something like this on the island though obviously there's intolerance everywhere.
It only takes ONE person.
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  #2180  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2014, 5:53 PM
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In general, I find displays of public affection (straight, gay, what have you) will get you some strange looks in this town though. We don't have a reputation for being a cold cold people for nothing.

In Toronto? You could walk around with a fuckin' dildo strapped to your head and no one would take a second look. We're cold because we don't care about people, not because we do.
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