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  #15281  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2021, 2:29 AM
Catenary Catenary is offline
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Originally Posted by Williamoforange View Post
Question are any of the transit rail systems in Canada considered rail systems?

Second do any of the other low floor light rail transit vehicles in Canada have those sensors?

Because it's not as if Ottawa staff designed the detailed spec there would have been engineers involved at both the city and Alstom that signed off on the current design and that's not done lightly.
Generally, no, mass-transit systems are not considered railways for the purposes of the act. Commuter rail is of course, but that's a different thing. The only mass-transit line in Canada that is a railway I can think of is the Trillium Line, due to its odd history, though it operates with some waivers. Its proximity is likely tainting the debate here.

Other knowledgeable people in a discussion elsewhere mentioned that there's no other mass-transit systems in Canada with bearing sensors. The railways have them as many freight cars are basically "homeless" and are so simple they rarely see maintenance. A passenger rail vehicle gets maintained regularly by the same group of people, so they should catch this sort of stuff. On a similar note, there's no bearing sensors in a bus or any other road vehicle for that matter.
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  #15282  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2021, 2:57 AM
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Williamoforange Williamoforange is offline
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Originally Posted by Catenary View Post
Generally, no, mass-transit systems are not considered railways for the purposes of the act. Commuter rail is of course, but that's a different thing. The only mass-transit line in Canada that is a railway I can think of is the Trillium Line, due to its odd history, though it operates with some waivers. Its proximity is likely tainting the debate here.

Other knowledgeable people in a discussion elsewhere mentioned that there's no other mass-transit systems in Canada with bearing sensors. The railways have them as many freight cars are basically "homeless" and are so simple they rarely see maintenance. A passenger rail vehicle gets maintained regularly by the same group of people, so they should catch this sort of stuff. On a similar note, there's no bearing sensors in a bus or any other road vehicle for that matter.
Thank you, and that is kinda what I figured but my Mech Eng experience is not with Train bogies or with how the rail system is regulated.

At this point it looks like Alstom is writing its maintenance SOP on the fly for its Citidas Spirit vehicles, and are either not completing or failing to even check areas that should be part of standard LRT maintenance SOP.
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  #15283  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2021, 3:19 PM
Admiral Nelson Admiral Nelson is offline
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Took some photos of the derailment site and tracks being replaced at Tremblay.


https://i.imgur.com/g9pVFQb.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/aToddcz.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/PbXNEDU.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/8qnElod.jpg
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  #15284  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2021, 3:34 PM
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Kitchissippi Kitchissippi is offline
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Took some photos of the derailment site and tracks being replaced at Tremblay.

Is this kind of like putting a towel around your waist while you change out of a wet swimsuit at the beach?
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  #15285  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2021, 12:45 AM
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Crazy train: Strange days as Ottawa's $2.1B LRT faces another crisis of confidence
After a pair of derailments and a cracked wheel, the Confederation Line is out of service indefinitely. What will it take to get the city's troubled light rail line working consistently again?

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Publishing date: Oct 02, 2021 • 4 hours ago • 6 minute read


It’s one of the strangest times in the history of public transit in Canada’s capital city.

The most expensive infrastructure project in the city of Ottawa’s history, the completed $2.1-billion Confederation Line, is out of order. Operator OC Transpo needs to redirect enough buses each day to quickly move paying customers, providing enough capacity to allow physical distancing during a pandemic.

Meanwhile, the head of the transit agency has retired from the municipal government and the new general manager doesn’t start until Oct. 18, leaving Transpo’s temporary bus-only operations in the hands of the city’s rail construction boss with support from the city manager’s office.

On top of that, there are three ongoing LRT investigations at the Transportation Safety Board — the two derailments this summer and a wheel-crack problem discovered in 2020 — and the city has been verifying whether its contractor, Rideau Transit Group (RTG), has finally solved legacy deficiencies after issuing a notice of default to the consortium in March 2020.

Transit ridership has severely dropped as COVID-19 has thousands of workers commuting only as far as their home offices, and now the mayor and the transit commission chair want to turn off the fare boxes and open the gates for the entire month of December (something Transpo has never done before) to win back confidence in public transit, and specifically, the two-year-old LRT system.

Even though it’s early in the life of Ottawa LRT, residents have lost faith in the electric rail system and are looking to city hall for accountability.

Can the city put the train’s crazy days behind it?

Maybe, but definitely not on its own.

While the city operates the LRT, its largely reduced to a managerial role when it comes to the health of the system, due to a public-private partnership with RTG. The company’s affiliate, Rideau Transit Maintenance (RTM) is responsible for taking care of the Alstom Citadis Spirit trains, tracks and stations for 30 years.

For city councillors looking for someone to hold responsible, it’s the source of much aggravation.

The city’s power comes in holding back maintenance payments, in the range of $4 million-to-$5-million each month, but that doesn’t do much to soothe transit customers who live with longer bus commutes when the LRT isn’t fit to run.

The two main-line derailments in September and October are the most jaw-dropping breakdowns in the Confederation Line’s short history. Reading the preliminary observations from the TSB, the derailments shared one distressing thing in common: trains ran for a period of time while they were showing signs of breakdown.

When it came to the Aug. 8 derailment, the TSB believes there was evidence of trouble on the train before it made the 12.5-kilometre journey across the downtown and was placed out of service for what maintenance staff thought was a brake problem. While a technician saw burn marks on a brake disk, there was critical damage on the other car of the double train. An axle’s cartridge assembly overheated, leading to a severed wheel.

On Sept. 19, a westbound train pulled into Tremblay Station already off the rails and left the station in that state, according to the TSB. The derailed train crossed the bridge over Riverside Drive before stopping. The regulator hasn’t released its theory about the cause of the derailment.

No one was injured in either incident, but the city is now experiencing an extended closure of the service to fix the infrastructure from the Sept. 19 derailment and bring in an independent consultant to create a return-to-service strategy.

At the political level, council members are asking city management to lay out how the 30-year maintenance contract could be cancelled — what has often been called the “nuclear” scenario at city hall — and suss out what it would take to create a Confederation Line maintenance division inside the municipal government.

Other councillors want the city to request a judicial inquiry to dig into the creation of the LRT system and contracts.

What makes the Ottawa LRT mess even more baffling is that the problems are happening despite the collective construction, engineering and transit experience of RTG’s parent companies. ACS Infrastructure, EllisDon and SNC-Lavalin aren’t novices, nor is the company responsible making and maintaining the trains, Alstom.

Before leaving city hall, recently retired general manager of transportation John Manconi told reporters that “everything is fixable,” repeating a line he’s delivered at other times when the LRT has underperformed.

But getting the attention of “Alstom, Alstom, Alstom,” the French train builder that provided the LRT’s trains, is critical, Manconi said.

Something isn’t clicking with the maintenance regime put together by RTG and RTM, where two-thirds of the 200-plus workforce are Alstom workers. The August derailment is a clear example, with the TSB suggesting that the maintenance program is “insufficient” for one specific safety matter when it comes to the cartridge assembly for the train wheels.

As for how things are going these days at RTG and RTM, the organizations are unable to publicly comment on matters related to the Confederation Line unless they receive permission from the city, as per the terms in its contract.

Work continues to get LRT back online, but there hasn’t been a confirmed timeline for a return to service.

The transit commission has required city management to hire an independent expert to make sure the LRT system is safe before trains start rolling again.

Finding a fresh set of eyes to review LRT is becoming more difficult for a city that continues to require studies of its new transit system. There has been a delay in trying to find the right consultant for the latest review.

“We also wanted someone to get here quickly so they can get started on the work,” city manager Steve Kanellakos said in an interview on the day he announced to council that he was not going to hire a consultant that had done LRT-related work for the city in the past.

But while taxpayers, transit riders and council members gnash their teeth over a long list of LRT delays and problems, at least one expert says what the city is facing isn’t unusual.

Gordon Lovegrove, a University of British Columbia engineering professor with an interest in sustainable transportation, who had a problem-free, non-eventful ride on the Confederation Line when he visited Ottawa last month, said that even after two years of operation it wouldn’t be unusual for an LRT system to still have kinks. What’s critical is to get engineers on the case.

“This is the normal shakedown,” Lovegrove said in an interview. “What Ottawa is going through, it’s nothing new.”

Lovegrove said he can understand the political pressure at city hall, especially when there are reputations at stake, compounded by the fact that it’s the nation’s capital.

“Clearly everybody and their dog want the system to succeed, including the people who want to ride on it and depend on it,” he said. “Reliability is critical if you’re going to get ridership.”

Adding a new technology to a transit system is also about the city adopting “a whole new culture,” Lovegrove said, drawing comparisons to the beginning of Vancouver’s SkyTrain more than 35 years ago.

“If you don’t take a risk, there’s not going to be progress,” Lovegrove said. “It can only go up from here.”

jwilling@postmedia.com
twitter.com/JonathanWilling

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...-of-confidence
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  #15286  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2021, 1:00 PM
GeoNerd GeoNerd is offline
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Devastating news if true.

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  #15287  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2021, 2:06 PM
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AuxTown AuxTown is offline
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Holy crap, that's insane if true! How can that be possible? Does one guy make these units by hand? Let's hope it's just a rumour.
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  #15288  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2021, 5:36 PM
nredding nredding is offline
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Why couldn’t they run trains between Hurdman and Tunneys?
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  #15289  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2021, 5:57 PM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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Originally Posted by nredding View Post
Why couldn’t they run trains between Hurdman and Tunneys?
For the time being, they want an independent safety audit done before any kind of reopening.

Otherwise, it's unclear whether the damaged signal equipment would actually prevent even a partial reopening. Personally, I would be surprised if it did.
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  #15290  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2021, 6:06 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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The message says 'integral' so perhaps it is critical to the functioning of the entire line. After all, the location of the accident was between Hurdman and the maintenance yard and presumably the whole system is controlled from there or one of the other OC Transpo facilities nearby. We will see, but hopefully it can repaired long before February. I guess these systems are customized and therefore, no replacement is available 'off the shelf'. Another problem with being first in implementing a new LRT model. There is lot more debugging required and a lack of availability of replacement units. It should get better over time with the Finch West line also slated to use the same LRT model.
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  #15291  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2021, 6:48 PM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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A few recent updates on this matter:

Sarah Wright-Gilbert got a response to an inquiry about the possible delay: https://twitter.com/smwgilbert/statu...563560453?s=21

in short, there's still no timeline, but there's also no indication that RTG/RTM doesn't have the equipment needed for repairs.

Ken Woods also gave his input: https://twitter.com/drivesincircles/...25288768872450

He thinks the line could operate without CBTC between Hurdman and St. Laurent. It makes sense when you think about it because these are just streetcars after all..

Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
The message says 'integral' so perhaps it is critical to the functioning of the entire line. After all, the location of the accident was between Hurdman and the maintenance yard and presumably the whole system is controlled from there or one of the other OC Transpo facilities nearby. We will see, but hopefully it can repaired long before February. I guess these systems are customized and therefore, no replacement is available 'off the shelf'. Another problem with being first in implementing a new LRT model. There is lot more debugging required and a lack of availability of replacement units. It should get better over time with the Finch West line also slated to use the same LRT model.
I doubt the trackside equipment is that specialized since it's just a Thales CBTC implementation after all. The onboard equipment might be, since we know this is the first integration between Seltrac and the Citadis.
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  #15292  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2021, 6:39 PM
DarthVader_1961 DarthVader_1961 is offline
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New firm hired for LRT review

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  #15293  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2021, 7:30 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by Kitchissippi View Post
Is this kind of like putting a towel around your waist while you change out of a wet swimsuit at the beach?
Some folks are pretty good at that!
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Enjoy my taxes, Orleans (and Kanata?).
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  #15294  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2021, 11:09 PM
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New independent consultant begins assessment of LRT return-to-service plan

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Publishing date: Oct 04, 2021 • 1 hour ago • 1 minute read


The city has found an independent consultant to review the return-to-service plan for the troubled Confederation Line.

City manager Steve Kanellakos told council on Monday that he has hired Philadelphia-based TRA for the job and the firm has already sent staff to the Ottawa LRT system for a preliminary assessment.

The $2.1-billion LRT system has been offline since Sept. 19 when a train derailed near Tremblay Station, damaging the train and track infrastructure. The cause is still under investigation by the Transportation Safety Board. No one was hurt. It was the second main-line derailment of an Ottawa Alstom Citadis Train since the beginning of August.

The transit commission ordered city staff to hire a independent consultant to assess the return-to-service plan before the LRT system welcomes customers back. The city initially hired STV, but the firm wouldn’t have been truly independent since it has done past LRT-related work for the city.

Kanellakos said TRA “has no previous dealings” with the Rideau Transit Group’s parent companies and has not done work for the City of Ottawa.

TRA’s preliminary assessment will lead to timelines for the independent review, Kanellakos said in a memo to council.

There has been no indication when the LRT system will be running again. RTG’s maintenance affiliate originally said it would be a three-week fix, but the time estimate hasn’t been confirmed by the city.

jwilling@postmedia.com
twitter.com/JonathanWilling

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...-lrt-on-monday
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  #15295  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2021, 11:44 PM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
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Originally Posted by rocketphish View Post
New independent consultant begins assessment of LRT return-to-service plan

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Publishing date: Oct 04, 2021 • 1 hour ago • 1 minute read


The city has found an independent consultant to review the return-to-service plan for the troubled Confederation Line.

City manager Steve Kanellakos told council on Monday that he has hired Philadelphia-based TRA for the job and the firm has already sent staff to the Ottawa LRT system for a preliminary assessment.

The $2.1-billion LRT system has been offline since Sept. 19 when a train derailed near Tremblay Station, damaging the train and track infrastructure. The cause is still under investigation by the Transportation Safety Board. No one was hurt. It was the second main-line derailment of an Ottawa Alstom Citadis Train since the beginning of August.

The transit commission ordered city staff to hire a independent consultant to assess the return-to-service plan before the LRT system welcomes customers back. The city initially hired STV, but the firm wouldn’t have been truly independent since it has done past LRT-related work for the city.

Kanellakos said TRA “has no previous dealings” with the Rideau Transit Group’s parent companies and has not done work for the City of Ottawa.

TRA’s preliminary assessment will lead to timelines for the independent review, Kanellakos said in a memo to council.

There has been no indication when the LRT system will be running again. RTG’s maintenance affiliate originally said it would be a three-week fix, but the time estimate hasn’t been confirmed by the city.

jwilling@postmedia.com
twitter.com/JonathanWilling

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...-lrt-on-monday
Sounds like, even if the part were to be installed tomorrow, this could be closed for a few months if not longer.
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  #15296  
Old Posted Oct 5, 2021, 12:33 AM
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Floppa Floppa is offline
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Video Link


Here is a great video that, while not exhaustive, effectively explains what went wrong with the O-Train.
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  #15297  
Old Posted Oct 5, 2021, 2:07 AM
passwordisnt123 passwordisnt123 is offline
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Video Link


Here is a great video that, while not exhaustive, effectively explains what went wrong with the O-Train.
That was a really good analysis, I thought. Sadly I don't expect us to actually do anything substantial to fundamentally fix the thing until at least three or four more major incidents and after the public basically forces the political leadership to take this more seriously.
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  #15298  
Old Posted Oct 5, 2021, 11:50 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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The fact that this Council wouldn't allow a judicial review says a lot.
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  #15299  
Old Posted Oct 5, 2021, 12:27 PM
DarthVader_1961 DarthVader_1961 is offline
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Originally Posted by passwordisnt123 View Post
That was a really good analysis, I thought. Sadly I don't expect us to actually do anything substantial to fundamentally fix the thing until at least three or four more major incidents and after the public basically forces the political leadership to take this more seriously.
His comments on the choice of rolling stock and how overworked it is very interesting.

I am curious as to what he meant when he mentioned 70% low floor?

Last edited by DarthVader_1961; Oct 5, 2021 at 12:35 PM. Reason: Correct typos
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  #15300  
Old Posted Oct 5, 2021, 12:44 PM
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roger1818 roger1818 is offline
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Originally Posted by DarthVader_1961 View Post
I am curious as to what he meant when he mentioned 70% low floor?
From my understanding, the centre of each car would be low floor, but then there would be steps (or a ramp) up at the ends to allow more space for the bogies.
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