Winnipeg Retail

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Jeff

on a recent stroll through the bay downtown post-lunch hour last week, I gotta say I was surprised by how busy the place was. it is the only game in downtown so-to-speak. the second floor has a toy section crammed into a corner now as well (maybe just holiday spillover still). with all the developments occurring and in the pipe, is it safe to say that downtown retail can't slide any further and may potentially be stable?

At the end of the day there are still thousands of people working and living downtown. While not all of them shop there, a lot of them do for the simple fact that it's convenient, and they aren't going anywhere. We're probably at a point where those are really the only shoppers left, and there is nowhere to go but up.

I am one of those downtown shoppers... if I can't find what I need at Portage Place/The Bay, then I'm going online to buy it. I might make it to Polo Park or St. Vital about once a year these days, so the big malls aren't really a convenient option for me.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by esquire

They won't beat Holt's at that game

That is just the rub though. Most of the luxury brands sign exclusive deals with specific retailers and the combined Hudson Bay/Saks is absolutely going to give Holts a real strong push in the market, especially in Canada. The combined Hudson Bay can offer more combined doors and customers than Holts. There is a reason the Weston family has basically iced all plans to expand Holts any further. Add in Simons coming in to skim off the top of the middle shoppers/bottom of the luxury ones and Hudson Bay absolutely needs to be working at repositioning itself.

I think Holts is actually nearing end of life under the Weston family. They are clearly making a retreat on a number of fronts focusing in on their core empires, now with the added Shoppers Drug Mart. Chasing the luxury department store banner which is increasingly becoming a global game doesn't make sense, especially when Walmart is trying desperately to each their lunch.

[esquire]

^ If The Bay moves to full luxury as you claim it will, then it will likely decimate the number of stores they have. There are apparently 90 HBC department stores, while Holt Renfrew has fewer than 10. Even if The Bay didn't go all out into luxury and ended up somewhere closer to Nordstrom than Holt's, it would probably result in them having no more than a dozen stores. Locations like St. Vital, Regina or Londonderry would bite the dust pretty fast. I have a hard time seeing them shed like 90% of their stores to chase a tiny luxury market.

Maybe HBC will jack up the luxury offerings they have in places like Toronto and Vancouver, but there's no way they're going to replace the Hilfiger and Polo Ralph Lauren racks at Polo Park with Gucci and Hermes.

[Kronos]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ If The Bay moves to full luxury as you claim it will, then it will likely decimate the number of stores they have. There are apparently 90 HBC department stores, while Holt Renfrew has fewer than 10. Even if The Bay didn't go all out into luxury and ended up somewhere closer to Nordstrom than Holt's, it would probably result in them having no more than a dozen stores. Locations like St. Vital, Regina or Londonderry would bite the dust pretty fast. I have a hard time seeing them shed like 90% of their stores to chase a tiny luxury market.

Maybe HBC will jack up the luxury offerings they have in places like Toronto and Vancouver, but there's no way they're going to replace the Hilfiger and Polo Ralph Lauren racks at Polo Park with Gucci and Hermes.

For the Bay, you don’t need to have the luxury goods in every store, as you can easily order the item online. If the said luxury item is in a Toronto or Vancouver Bay store, it can be sent quickly to your home. More and more luxury lines are easily available online, and Winnipeg stores like Coach or Michael Kors carry limited items in their storefronts, but will gladly order for you to be sent to your home any item not available at their store.

I’m thinking over time more and more stores selling luxury brands will have a small sampling of items in stores, but the main driver will be online sales and warehousing/logistics.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by Kronos

I’m thinking over time more and more stores selling luxury brands will have a small sampling of items in stores, but the main driver will be online sales and warehousing/logistics.

Small edit but that is generally the direction retail is headed towards as a whole. The key is basically getting goods into people's hands quickly. It's why some chains like Best Buy and Walmart are essentially experimenting with using bricks and mortar stores as hybrid store/fulfilment centres.

[cslusarc]

Hudson's Bay is also using it's 3 Full-Line department stores in Winnipeg for online order fulfilment by allowing you to order online and pick up instore in addition to shipping your order to your home. Unfortunately the have to be well stocked with your particular SKU before they will offer instore pickup. They suspended online pick-up ordering from Black Friday until January 2nd on most items. For some unknown reason the are unable to use the inventory in its Home Stores and remaining Home Outfitters locations to fulfill online orders.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by cslusarc

Hudson's Bay [...] Home Stores and remaining Home Outfitters locations

That reminds me, Winnipeg is (was?) a test market for a tweaked concept on Home Outfitters changing them all to "Hudson Bay Home" stores. If memory is correct the main change was adding beds, major appliances and BBQs to the stores.

..

In terms of local stores doing fulfilment, Best Buy for example takes an online order, looks if it is in-stock locally, then sends it from the store to your shipping address. As the pickup and destination under that model are both "local" it can cut 1-2 days out of the normal online order delivery timeframe compared to the larger fulfilment model. It is also mostly seamless to the customer as their order just comes to them.

[toolsinbox]

Hey whats the latest with Walt Morris? I heard he and his accountant were marched out the door? Any truth to this?

[buzzg]

The Bay probably has the best online/in-store inventory management of any retail company in Canada, and is years ahead of most others. Not to mention impeccable service. If there's something in store they don't have in your size, they'll ship it to your house for free from anywhere in Canada and it only takes a couple days. It's clearly not accident.

There's been talk of a move upmarket, or at least refreshing all the stores for a few years... it makes total sense to get all the logistical systems in place before any major changes. With the system they have now they can easily roll out more (upmarket) lines in select stores, while making them easily available to people anywhere in the country, as Cory mentioned.

Look at how much HBC-branded (4 colour) stuff you see everywhere now, and how much people love it. First they made "Hudson's Bay" cool again (even to millennials) and now they can shift the company. It's brilliant really, and they've done it fairly under the radar and gradually.

[cheswick]

So the newly yellow painted building at north gate people have speculated might be a giant tiger is a used car dealership.

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ If The Bay moves to full luxury as you claim it will, then it will likely decimate the number of stores they have. There are apparently 90 HBC department stores, while Holt Renfrew has fewer than 10. Even if The Bay didn't go all out into luxury and ended up somewhere closer to Nordstrom than Holt's, it would probably result in them having no more than a dozen stores. Locations like St. Vital, Regina or Londonderry would bite the dust pretty fast. I have a hard time seeing them shed like 90% of their stores to chase a tiny luxury market.

Maybe HBC will jack up the luxury offerings they have in places like Toronto and Vancouver, but there's no way they're going to replace the Hilfiger and Polo Ralph Lauren racks at Polo Park with Gucci and Hermes.

hudsons bay got exclusive rights to Bond no 9 cologne, previously Holt renfrew had it. Its pretty pricey. They have definately upped their fragrances and beauty offerings, i didn't know if its country wide or just in select stores.

Bloomingdales has a couple types of stores, I can only use San Francisco as an example, the downtown store was full on luxury with a louis vuitton boutique etc. The stores further out were still nice but much more practical and less luxury options but looked just as nice storewise. Something the bay could do. WInnipeg could get a HB with instore michael kors, coach, kate spade etc. Some of the suburban stores in Vancouve have those.

Hilfigger is enjoying the 90s revival thing and his clothes are pretty hot now showing up in simons and nordstrom recently. Ditto for Calvin Klein, Nordstrom carries $500 made in italy sweatshirts that look like the $85 one sold at the hudsons bay

Also Nordstrom in Vancouver is on par for luxury with Holt Renfrew, they both carry gucci for instance. Nordstrom has an christian laboutine instore, balmain, givenchy etc. Since Norsdtorm opened here in Vancouver Holt Renfrew has really seemed to have lost foot traffic, Nordstrom in Vancouver is nothing compared to the Nordstrom stores I have seen along the West Coast cities, much higher end then the US stores.

[Brizzy82]

Interesting, I wonder if The Bay downtown carries Bond No 9 line?

Bond is my favorite fragrance brand, big fan of a lot of their stuff (Riverside Drive, Bleecker St, I Love NY For All, New Haarlem, Fire Island, Bondno9.com are personal favs)

My poor wallet

[wags_in_the_peg]

what? not everyone's uses Axe bodyspray for $4?

[laumag]

Originally Posted by cheswick

So the newly yellow painted building at north gate people have speculated might be a giant tiger is a used car dealership.

... and ... I think it is an eyesore. The strip mall was updated and then, along comes an ugly yellow and black building with lots of flying flags. Shindico should actually view "the Big Picture" instead of filling empty space with ugliness. Nothing like more car lots to brighten up a neighborhood. Blech!

[CoryB]

Michael Kors now owns Jimmy Choo and Coach owns Kate Spade. Both companies are actively working on strategies to better control their brand images including putting in place limitation on discounts department stores like Hudson Bay, et all can offer on their product. In some cases the product is even being fully removed from these chains.

I think Hudson Bay locally is being held back some by the boat anchor on Memorial.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by CoryB

I think Hudson Bay locally is being held back some by the boat anchor on Memorial.

How is it being held back?

[CoryB]

I think Hudson Bay either feels obligated or has some business reason to keep the Portage Ave store operating as a going concern. As that is far from the up market store they want to pursue they are not pushing the other stores as hard up market here as they might otherwise try.

[esquire]

^ Why is upmarket = progress, though? Winnipeg is not really the kind of city where people feel pressure to engage in conspicuous consumption. I always kind of liked that.

But even if you don't care about my idealism, the reality is that most larger cities have varying levels of inventory at their Bay stores. If people were dropping mad coin at the Polo Park Hudson's Bay, they'd be filling that up with high-end stuff. But they aren't. I think the relative scarcity of high-end retail is a pretty good indicator of how little Winnipeg is into that sort of thing. The relatively few people who are into it are pretty well forced to buy online or go to cities which do have that critical mass of retail... if you're looking to blow 20 grand at Holt's, then it's probably nothing for you to drop $1,000 on a business class seat to Toronto and another $1,000 for a couple of nights at a nice hotel. I once worked with someone who did just that.

To put it differently, I don't think the downtown store is holding back the Polo Park location any more than the St. Vital store is.

[cslusarc]

I think the problem for Hudson's Bay and it's Portage & Memorial store is that the West Broadway and Spence Neighbourhoods went from being fairly wealthy areas a century ago to being some of the poorest neighbourhoods in Winnipeg.

[CoryB]

Why up market?

The trend in retail as a whole is basically gutting the middle of the market (and the middle class as a whole). On the low end of the market there is currently retailers like Walmart. On the other end you have brands like Holts, Nordstorms, Sask, etc. Traditionally Hudson Bay has been mid to higher end of the market. They can either completely shed the higher end people and try and push downmarket and compete against Walmart, perhaps with a revived Zellers brand (?) or they can try to position themselves higher in the marketplace which has less of an established dominate single global retailer. It's not like this shift happened out of the blue or is going to fully take place tomorrow but it is definitely starting to shift. Besides Hudson Bay name a single mid-tier multi-brand store with multiple locations in Canada.