HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #41  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 5:49 AM
Shawn Shawn is online now
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 5,935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quixote View Post
This is also true for two other places that I think LA can be compared to: Tokyo and Queens, NY. Those are pretty urban locales with more than decent pedestrian activity, no?

Uninterrupted urban flow isn't a deal-breaker, especially if we're talking about a city with an expansive geography (e.g. Los Angeles). Somebody needing to get from Downtown to Koreatown won't deal with crossing the 110 Freeway because the distance between points A and B is too great to traverse by foot.

On the subject of SF, I beg to differ. Look at a map. You have I-80 running through SOMA and I-280, US 101 cutting through the southeast portion of the city.
Tokyo is a bad comparison here though because the highways are only 2 lanes in each direction, are often stacked so they take up only two lanes in total, are elevated a good 50-75 feet above the street, and are frequently packed with retail below (or they directly run above canals). The same applies to the train line viaducts.

I can't find a pic right now specifically of under-highway retail, but this is typical of what you see under highways and train viaducts in Tokyo:



Thanks to Momo1345 over at SSC
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #42  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 6:13 AM
ocman ocman is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Burlingame
Posts: 2,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliNative View Post
Hopefully some of those freeways, especially encircling the downtown area, can be covered over and be made into linear parks. Most of the freeways are below street level, so it seems possible. Sort of an L.A. "High Line" linear park like in Manhattan. The traffic flows out of sight. And then we have the L.A. River. All kinds of beautification ideas seem doable. How about a "town lake" like what they have along the Salt River in the Phoenix area near A.S.U.? Apartment & condo buildings could line the lake. Or a riverwalk/lake walk like San Antonio? Also, I'd like to see much more condo/apt buildings north of downtown, in the Chinatown/Olvera Street/Plaza/Dodger Stadium area. Multistory, mixed use.

"Make no little plans"- Burnham.
The burying/capping of the freeways is the next step of LA’s evolving future. Everyone has it in the back of their minds (specifically the 101 has seen plans), but I doubt it will happen (or if it’s even necessary) until downtown reaches a it’s capacity for spill over. Right now, the freeways enclosing downtown is somewhat of a good thing in the short term as it insulates and determines the type of development in that one central area (dense, urban, walkable). So the psychological freeway barrier has it’s good points if only on future development. I can imagine more insular developments in arts district had it not been for the freeways signaling to developers “Nope, you’re still in downtown”.

Last edited by ocman; Jul 20, 2017 at 6:35 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #43  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 6:44 AM
Quixote's Avatar
Quixote Quixote is offline
Inveterate Angeleno
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,474
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
Tokyo is a bad comparison here though because the highways are only 2 lanes in each direction, are often stacked so they take up only two lanes in total, are elevated a good 50-75 feet above the street, and are frequently packed with retail below (or they directly run above canals). The same applies to the train line viaducts.

I can't find a pic right now specifically of under-highway retail, but this is typical of what you see under highways and train viaducts in Tokyo:

...
I agree, but the comparison is apt in the sense that connectivity is achieved primarily through rail infrastructure (not urban design). Like LA, Tokyo isn't a city built for long-distance walking, but for different reasons. Its maze-like layout is such that there's really no direct route for a pedestrian to get from this node to that node. It's certainly possible, but instead of large freeway underpasses, you must negotiate with wide, highway-like arteries (even wider than LA's) and jagged 1-2-lane residential streets with no sidewalks. LA has the benefit of being laid on a grid, but its issues have more to do with scale and really thinned-out density.
__________________
“To tell a story is inescapably to take a moral stance.”

— Jerome Bruner

Last edited by Quixote; Jul 20, 2017 at 6:55 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #44  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 11:04 AM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quixote View Post
This is also true for two other places that I think LA can be compared to: Tokyo and Queens, NY. Those are pretty urban locales with more than decent pedestrian activity, no?
I don't think Tokyo or Queens have similar streetscapes as LA. Tokyo would be totally foreign. I can't think of any real similarities.

Queens has some very vague similarities but has much narrower streets, few real freeways and comparatively very transit and pedestrian oriented.

LA's major issue is that it boomed too late and has a multimodal, autocentric design. Unless you invent a time machine, you aren't going to get pre-auto built form, which would be a necessary condition for having a comparable geography as core SF.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #45  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 3:22 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,182
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLO View Post
Also they provide landscaping options and vertical greenery that doesn't have to shade.
I'm sorry, but I just don't understand what the point is of those super tall skinny palms with the canopy over 100 feet in the air. From a street level, the palms might as well be utility poles.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #46  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 3:27 PM
Pedestrian's Avatar
Pedestrian Pedestrian is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 24,177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I don't think Tokyo or Queens have similar streetscapes as LA. Tokyo would be totally foreign. I can't think of any real similarities.
SF has some (artificial) Japan-like streetscapes (but less like Tokyo than smaller towns) as well as a sizeable totally Japanese mall:






https://www.google.com/search?q=Japa...Lp2IRg#imgrc=_

Beyond the architecture, though, we are getting an increasing number of chain stores and restaurants home-based in Asia (both China and Japan).
__________________
Rusiya delenda est
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #47  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 4:10 PM
destroycreate's Avatar
destroycreate destroycreate is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,608
For all you guys saying LA is criss-crossed by freeways...are you sure that is really case for the core of LA? I mean, look at the below.

[IMG][/IMG]

That is an approximately 9.5x6 mile area (SF is 7x7, with two freeways cutting right through it) with no major freeways dissecting any of the neighborhoods. I think people over exaggerate the presence of freeways cutting through LA when what they're really referring to is the greater LA basin, not the actual core "city" area we're discussing. Pretty much ALL American cities have freeways cutting through them so I'm not sure why SF is being put on a pedestal here.
__________________
**23 years on SSP!**
Previously known as LaJollaCA
https://www.instagram.com/itspeterchristian/
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #48  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 4:16 PM
Centropolis's Avatar
Centropolis Centropolis is offline
disneypilled verhoevenist
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: saint louis
Posts: 11,866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post
SF has some (artificial) Japan-like streetscapes (but less like Tokyo than smaller towns) as well as a sizeable totally Japanese mall:






https://www.google.com/search?q=Japa...Lp2IRg#imgrc=_

Beyond the architecture, though, we are getting an increasing number of chain stores and restaurants home-based in Asia (both China and Japan).
i got lost in there (well, in all of SF) once at about 3 AM, with no smart phone and highly inebriated wandering wildly off course back to my hotel. that was disorienting to say the least...i'll always remember stumbling into japantown.
__________________
You may Think you are vaccinated but are you Maxx-Vaxxed ™!? Find out how you can “Maxx” your Covid-36 Vaxxination today!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #49  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 4:21 PM
sopas ej's Avatar
sopas ej sopas ej is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: South Pasadena, California
Posts: 6,847
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA21st View Post
Crossing over the 110 isn't that bad either. It might feel odd, but I see quite a few pedestrians doing it.

The 101 between the Civic Center/Chinatown seems more terrifying.
It's not. I've walked between the Civic Center and Chinatown/Plaza-Olvera Street area many times. The only thing that might "terrify" people are the homeless encampments you see along that downtown slot stretch of the freeway.
__________________
"I guess the only time people think about injustice is when it happens to them."

~ Charles Bukowski
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #50  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 4:28 PM
dc_denizen's Avatar
dc_denizen dc_denizen is offline
Selfie-stick vendor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: New York Suburbs
Posts: 10,999
not all urban freeways are equally obtrusive or destructive to urbanity.
__________________
Joined the bus on the 33rd seat
By the doo-doo room with the reek replete
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #51  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 4:41 PM
ThePhun1 ThePhun1 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Houston/Galveston
Posts: 1,870
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliNative View Post
Believe it or not, the central 49 square miles of Los Angeles (comprising DTLA, the near east, north, west & south sides) have about the same population and density as San Francisco (also 49 square miles). 800,000 people, almost 15,000 people per square mile. Anyone who has walked some of these neighborhoods in L.A., e.g. Koreatown and MacArthur Park, realizes this. Enough with the "low density L.A." myth. The high densities also extend outward. The entire built area of the L.A. basin has greater overall population density than all other American metro areas, including the greater New York metro area (although Manhattan is the local density champ for the U.S.). The reason why this is important is that L.A. transit & other projects have sometimes in the past been denied adequate funding because of the "low density" myth.
Oh God, not this again.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #52  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 4:43 PM
Leo the Dog Leo the Dog is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: The Lower-48
Posts: 4,789
Quote:
Originally Posted by destroycreate View Post
For all you guys saying LA is criss-crossed by freeways...are you sure that is really case for the core of LA? I mean, look at the below.



That is an approximately 9.5x6 mile area (SF is 7x7, with two freeways cutting right through it) with no major freeways dissecting any of the neighborhoods. I think people over exaggerate the presence of freeways cutting through LA when what they're really referring to is the greater LA basin, not the actual core "city" area we're discussing. Pretty much ALL American cities have freeways cutting through them so I'm not sure why SF is being put on a pedestal here.
I was gonna say the same thing. LA is underserved by freeways compared to just about every other US metro especially on a per capita basis.

Once I get off the 405 in LA, rarely do I get back on a freeway until I'm ready to go home.

This is from an SSP thread from 2012:
Quote:
Here are the ten with the least freeway lane miles per capita:

1. Chicago
2. Tampa/St.Pete - wouldn't want too many octogenarians out on the road anyway.
3. Miami - surprising. No worries, MIA will rectify this as soon as they expand I-95 to 40 lanes (this was really once an idea).
4. NYC/Newark
5. Portland
6. Sacramento
7. Phoenix
8. LA
9. Philly
10. DC
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=198942
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #53  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 5:14 PM
badrunner badrunner is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 2,698
This was posted in a previous thread discussing the same subject:



http://la.streetsblog.org/2015/03/03...eally-compare/
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #54  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 5:55 PM
dc_denizen's Avatar
dc_denizen dc_denizen is offline
Selfie-stick vendor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: New York Suburbs
Posts: 10,999
interesting.

same thing on google satellite maps, same scale:

Los Angeles

San Fran
__________________
Joined the bus on the 33rd seat
By the doo-doo room with the reek replete
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #55  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 6:01 PM
ThePhun1 ThePhun1 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Houston/Galveston
Posts: 1,870
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris08876 View Post
LA just needs to work on the transit. Overhaul essentially. The city is ripe to grow and become larger than ever. The boom right now is the biggest I believe since the 80's. I hope it continues. Lots of towers, lots of high quality mid rises compromising of mixed used going up. Lots of potential, and I wish the best of luck to the region. If the transit is set in motion, will really encourage development, especially around light rail nodes.

LA I'd say is one of the few U.S. cities that has several mini-cities within the city limits. Increased density of these will give it a unique, aesthetic look. It's not just centralized in other words.
If you think there's an exclusive list of cities that have mini-cities in the city limits, then you need to get out more. To the contrary, that's the majority of places, sometimes even suburbs and towns.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #56  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 7:22 PM
mhays mhays is offline
Never Dell
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 19,748
LA's overall core has pretty impressive density vs. the popular conception. At the same time, its Downtown loop and nearby areas were remarkably low in that image. That must be part of the misconception about the city's density overall. Downtown is changing of course, so maybe a critical mass will arrive before too long. (The current boom is a big step, but it might take a couple booms.)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #57  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 7:29 PM
LosAngelesSportsFan's Avatar
LosAngelesSportsFan LosAngelesSportsFan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,838
Quote:
Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
This was posted in a previous thread discussing the same subject:



http://la.streetsblog.org/2015/03/03...eally-compare/
Great comparison map. Guaranteed that the numbers for both cities have skyrocketed since 2013
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #58  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 7:40 PM
emathias emathias is offline
Adoptive Chicagoan
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: River North, Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 5,157
The land portion within the red line in this map of Chicago is "Chicago's San Francisco" at just over 49 square miles and just under a million people. Additionally, enough parts of this area are growing that it will probably cross a million people in 2020, giving it an average density of about 20,000 ppsm. Although there are a variety of ways to describe Chicago, the area in this is most of what some would call the urban core of "Global Chicago," i.e. the part of Chicago influenced by and influencing other global cities. This doesn't include the area around the University of Chicago mostly because it would be hard to have a contiguous connection between this map, nor does it include the several suburban clusters that contribute to Global Chicago as a concept.

You may note that most of this area is relatively well-served by expressways (especially if we count Lake Shore Drive as an expressway even though technically it's not), as well as rail transport (both the 'L's colored lines and Metra commuter rail's dull green lines).

__________________
[SIZE="1"]I like travel and photography - check out my [URL="https://www.flickr.com/photos/ericmathiasen/"]Flickr page[/URL].
CURRENT GEAR: Nikon Z6, Nikon Z 14-30mm f4 S, Nikon Z 24-70mm f/4 S, Nikon 50mm f1.4G
STOLEN GEAR: (during riots of 5/30/2020) Nikon D750, Nikon 14-24mm F2.8G, Nikon 85mm f1.8G, Nikon 50mm f1.4D
[/SIZE]
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #59  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 7:51 PM
Centropolis's Avatar
Centropolis Centropolis is offline
disneypilled verhoevenist
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: saint louis
Posts: 11,866
i'm confused, wheres beverly
__________________
You may Think you are vaccinated but are you Maxx-Vaxxed ™!? Find out how you can “Maxx” your Covid-36 Vaxxination today!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #60  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 9:03 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
The City
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Chicago region
Posts: 21,375
Quote:
Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
This was posted in a previous thread discussing the same subject:



http://la.streetsblog.org/2015/03/03...eally-compare/
^ That kind of resembles pizza
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 8:49 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.