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View Poll Results: Which transbay tower design scheme do you like best?
#1 Richard Rogers 40 8.05%
#2 Cesar Pelli 99 19.92%
#3 SOM 358 72.03%
Voters: 497. You may not vote on this poll

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  #821  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2007, 1:40 AM
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Originally Posted by tyler82 View Post
I understand what you're saying, and yes, I understand that office space is more lucrative than affordable housing, but my point is that the competition was meant to create a space where people could live/ work densely, encouraging public transit. It seems like Pelli could care less about the needs of SF and just wants to make money, which is why I enjoy the SOM proposal 100% more, they really seem to know the city a lot better (probably cause they're local) and I love that they include housing in their proposal, to get more of these people out into the streets at night! Downtown is a ghost town, and embarrassing when friends come into town and there's no life anywhere.
Ok, in defense of Pelli - the Transbay Tower is meant as the centerpiece of a new neighborhood, which will have thousands of units of housing. The other two proposals might include 150-250 units, but that's a drop in the bucket for the combined Rincon Hill/Transbay's 10,000+ units. Who knows - the office space could actually be BETTER for streetlife, if it allows more of those who will live in Transbay/Rincon to work there, rather than more of the units being snapped up as second homes or for Sili Valley commuters.
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  #822  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2007, 1:44 AM
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Originally Posted by craeg View Post
Sorry, I think the pelli design as is was pretty much a failure. To put out a design with no housing element at all - and to plan to put online so much office space in such short period of time ? Do you think EOP and all the other building groups are going to be pleased with over a million and a half sq ft flooding their currently very tight market?
And yes they can add housing to the plans later - that's not the point. You can add anything to the project later. It just shows a serious lack of understanding of the SF office/housing markets. Prop M limits the amount of new office that can be constructed per year in SF to 800k sq ft. They are going to have a very hard time getting around that limitation.
Introducing that much office space could flood the market, or it could allow some very large companies to move into the city that currently cannot find space. Prop M will be a piece of cake to get around - it only limits the amount of office space that can be "granted" each year, not actually built. There have been many years after Prop M passed where more than 800k was built after a series of years with less than 800k, because each year any amount not built is "banked" for future years.
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  #823  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2007, 2:38 AM
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Originally Posted by tyler82 View Post
It seems like Pelli could care less about the needs of SF and just wants to make money
I wouldn't blame Pelli. His design actually can be either office or housing--at the presentation I believe they said up to 270 units of housing. It's Hines that had the chutzpah to present a version of it with no housing which I see as showing an extraordinary political tone deafness.
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  #824  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2007, 2:48 AM
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it could allow some very large companies to move into the city that currently cannot find space. Prop M will be a piece of cake to get around - it only limits the amount of office space that can be "granted" each year, not actually built. There have been many years after Prop M passed where more than 800k was built after a series of years with less than 800k, because each year any amount not built is "banked" for future years.
- I don't think this space will have the effect you propose. The reasons companies move out of town are the cost of space (too expensive for "back office" activities--and this building's space may break records for rents) and the size of the space (the uses forced out often require large floor plates which this building also won't have).

- I posted a few months ago a BizTimes story pointing out that there's enough new office space in the pipeline, including 555 Mission, to once again make Prop. M a factor. I'm not sure if this building goes to the head of the line or gets any sort of exemption or other preference.
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  #825  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2007, 3:17 AM
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- I don't think this space will have the effect you propose. The reasons companies move out of town are the cost of space (too expensive for "back office" activities--and this building's space may break records for rents) and the size of the space (the uses forced out often require large floor plates which this building also won't have).

- I posted a few months ago a BizTimes story pointing out that there's enough new office space in the pipeline, including 555 Mission, to once again make Prop. M a factor. I'm not sure if this building goes to the head of the line or gets any sort of exemption or other preference.
I don't know that it necessarily would do what I suggested, I was just throwing something out there - but when I made that statement, I wasn't necessarily saying the open space would be within the tower - but perhaps in other places that are vacated by companies moving into this building. This tower's rents will undoubtedly be high enough to challenge some records.

The planning department makes the decision on which buildings to move to the front of the line, so I would assume they would move this one to the front - Prop M was originally configured to be first-in, first-out, but was altered in 2000? 2001? to give the planning dept control over which buildings go first. I don't remember exactly when.
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  #826  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2007, 5:38 AM
Richard Mlynarik Richard Mlynarik is offline
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Originally Posted by mthd View Post
SFView - SOM was well aware of the need to work out the two level bus scheme and has done so long before the meeting. As you probably know from the TJPA website, there have been two prior technical reviews with the TJPA technical staff to ensure that there were no 'fatal flaws' in the scheme. And, of course, SOM has worked with several of the world's leading bus transit engineers to validate the scheme from an analytical point of view.
The extremely steep internal ramps in the plan are operation disasters, both because of the grades themselves as well as because of they remove bypass routes required to route around disabled vehicles.

Fortunately, you can correct that should you choose, while massively improving operations overall: split and stack the inbound and outbound ramps from the bridge and route the inbound ramp to the upper level, leaving only a down ramp inside the structure.

The huge win of doing so -- in addition to avoiding a steep, slow and noisy internal climb and removing a large internal circulation obstacle -- is that the in inbound/outbound traffic conflict inherent in the transition from the right-hand-running ramps to the internal clockwise circulation is completely removed, resulting is much freer circulation -- inbound traffic doens't have to wait for outbound.

At a projected and required 150 buses per hour there simply isn't any practical choice but to grade separate out this slow and hazardous conflict.

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The comparison to the port authority terminal in New York, while interesting and relevant in some ways, is a totally different scale of operation and connection to the city.
In the 2050 or so time frame we'll need all the capacity we can get.

AC isn't crying wolf here, and the SOM design as presented is screwed up ... but can be fixed, and fixed well, with a modest investment.

Removing the catastrophically incompetent and idiotic subterranean(!!!!) Greyhound terminal sure gets my stamp of approval.

What a pity that zero thought has gone into rail operations or rail passenger circulation -- all of the presented entries are still castastrophically bad, being unthinking based upon catastrophically incompetent TJPA/Caltrain/PTG/URS "engineering".
(No, this can't be fixed after the fact in Phase Two la-la-land. It has to be designed correctly now, and hasn't been and apparently won't be.)

Last edited by Richard Mlynarik; Aug 11, 2007 at 5:46 AM.
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  #827  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2007, 7:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Richard Mlynarik View Post
The extremely steep internal ramps in the plan are operation disasters, both because of the grades themselves as well as because of they remove bypass routes required to route around disabled vehicles.

Fortunately, you can correct that should you choose, while massively improving operations overall: split and stack the inbound and outbound ramps from the bridge and route the inbound ramp to the upper level, leaving only a down ramp inside the structure.

The huge win of doing so -- in addition to avoiding a steep, slow and noisy internal climb and removing a large internal circulation obstacle -- is that the in inbound/outbound traffic conflict inherent in the transition from the right-hand-running ramps to the internal clockwise circulation is completely removed, resulting is much freer circulation -- inbound traffic doens't have to wait for outbound.

At a projected and required 150 buses per hour there simply isn't any practical choice but to grade separate out this slow and hazardous conflict.
...
the baseline TJPA 'scheme' already contained this circulation conflict, so it is not really an issue of stacking the bus decks or not, or the SOM scheme vs another scheme. as you point out, the conflict could be removed but it would significantly increase both the cost and the height of the ramp from the bay bridge. there are other ways to solve it as well, which can and should be addressed later by the winning team should AC Transit be interested.

there are also other reasons to leave the inbound ramp on the lower level. as an essential facility there is a benefit to placing a fully self sufficient bus deck below a highly hardened concrete cover, so that in a truly catastrophic event the ramp and bus system have the greatest chance of uninterrupted function.

as for disabled vehicles and bypass lanes, the only location that a failure would have any different effect in the stacked scheme than it would in the single deck scheme would be a bus failing while going UP the ramp. given that buses normally fail at their berths (by failing to start) and not 29 miles into a 30 mile route, the likelihood of this failure is considered to be nearly nil.

finally, entering on the upper level and exiting on the lower requires a large number of the vehicles (depending on which berths they drop off and load at) to make multiple loops through the structure, which increases travel distance, travel time, emissions, pollution, fuel consumed, wear and tear on vehicles, and all the things that come with driving buses around in circles in the city.

calling something an 'operation disaster' without having actually analyzed it from an engineering point of view (as multiple transportation engineers already have - and i'm not talking about the tjpa or ac transit) seems a little premature to me; but i guess i wouldn't have expected anything less from richard. things like the grades and widths of the ramps were not selected without knowledge of what the actual vehicles can easily accomodate, without considering the precise amount of increased noise which would might generated, etc etc.

Last edited by mthd; Aug 11, 2007 at 7:29 AM.
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  #828  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2007, 5:36 PM
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The SOM Website now posts high(er) resolution versions of their conceptual videos.


Also, here's another angle of the fantastic entryway:


(from SOM website)
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  #829  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2007, 5:52 PM
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Does the tower entrance remind anyone else of this:


Source: http://www.roadstoiraq.com/2007/02/2...-victory-arch/

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  #830  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2007, 3:01 AM
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Baghdad by the bay indeed
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  #831  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2007, 7:02 AM
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Shaping the city's future

High stakes: New Transbay Terminal high-rise has potential to redefine San Francisco -- all proposals have worthy elements, but one stands out

John King, Chronicle Urban Design Writer

Sunday, August 12, 2007

The competition to build a new transit center and skyscraper on Mission Street isn't a beauty contest. It's a gamble in city-making that could redefine San Francisco in the sky and on the ground.

How fitting, then, that the tower best suited to replace the Transamerica Pyramid as the Bay Area's tallest building is every bit as startling as that 35-year-old icon once was -- and, at first glance to many eyes, every bit as harsh.

The design comes from the firm of England's Lord Richard Rogers, and it hums with surprising life. Scaffold-like braces of brightly colored steel reach 1,225 feet into the air, the space inside the braces stuffed with glassy stacks of offices and condominiums and a hotel. Brightly colored elevator cabs race up and down the outer walls; next door, a three-block-long bus platform is perched atop a lean open-air frame with ceilings cloaked in tent-like billows of thin bamboo.

The tower is too tall, as are its rivals in the public competition being held to raise money for a new mass transit hub. It's also designed with a wind turbine on top that needs to go.

But more than the other two proposals, Rogers' approach makes sense. It understands what the neighborhood needs -- and how a city and region evolve.

The proposal is one of three unveiled last week by the Transbay Joint Powers Authority, the agency created in 2001 to create a new transit station on the site of the long-obsolete Transbay Terminal at First and Mission streets.

The three design-development teams in the running were asked for detailed schemes showing a tower proposal that the team would build as well as a transit center design that the authority can then build itself. Financial bids that were attached to the projects have not been released.

The competition rules call for a terminal that can welcome AC Transit commuter buses from the East Bay, along with other bus lines and, in the future, train service from the Peninsula. They also specify that any tower should be "an iconic presence." The goal is for both buildings to open in 2014, which in development years isn't nearly as far off as it sounds.

Purely in sculptural terms, the most alluring tower comes from Skidmore Owings Merrill, which paired with Rockefeller Group Development Corp. Thick bands of structural steel fan upward from a broad base, followed by lattice-like waves that taper and fold until they form a translucent cone that scrapes the sky.

Imagine a chic new box for the Eiffel Tower -- one that happens to stretch 1,375 feet, more than 500 feet beyond the Transamerica Pyramid.

The problem lies far below: on the ground, where the steelwork cloaks the entire southern block of Mission between First and Fremont streets.

In a different location such girth wouldn't matter. But this corner is fast filling up with towers -- including a 600-foot high-rise to the north and a slightly taller one going up to the east. There needs to be breathing room for passers-by.

By contrast, the problem with the transit portion of the Skidmore-Rockefeller proposal is too much breathing room.

Competition rules spell out that the terminal should stretch from Beale Street almost to Second Street, a distance of 1,350 feet and a length that allows for a generous platform for AC Transit buses arriving on special ramps from the Bay Bridge.

Instead, Skidmore's design takes the eastern half of the AC Transit platform and places it atop the platform west of First Street. The idea was to free up the two eastern blocks for other uses, including a glass-clad hall as spacious as the centerpiece of Grand Central Terminal in New York.

While the space looks good on paper, AC Transit officials say the alignment wouldn't work. And the space created doesn't seem worth the trouble. The "grand hall" is a block east of bus service. Most people probably would stroll down First Street directly into the station, rather than take a ceremonial detour.

The most straightforward proposal is from a team led by Pelli Clarke Pelli Architects and the developer Hines.

The team carefully stuck to the rules, such as providing a plaza on Fremont Street next to a relatively simple 82-story tower that resembles an obelisk and ends with a hollow cone that rounds off the tower's slender silhouette.

The terminal design wraps everything inside a basket-like weave of glass and steel that swings out over alleyways. But on top there's a surprise -- a 5.4-acre park.

If this proposal is the one that triumphs, its field of green dreams will be why. There's a romantic appeal to such a sweeping landscape above the din of traffic, one that's wider than Market Street. The design by Peter Walker and Partners of Berkeley includes a variety of terrains, and Hines pledges to maintain the park and fund a variety of events through the year.

The tower, though, isn't much to get excited about. Cesar Pelli and his firm are masters at exquisitely tailored high-rises, but this one seems to come off the rack. It's elegant without being inspired.

That said, Pelli's tower has rivaled the Skidmore design in an unscientific Internet poll conducted of Chronicle readers at SFGate.com.

The Rogers tower places third -- and no wonder. Not only is the brash, machine-like look jarring to many eyes, the tower is topped by a single 125-foot-high wind turbine held in place by tweezer-like red columns.

The idea was to create a skyline accent as memorable as Transamerica's peak: "an icon on top of an icon," according to the entry package. Instead, it looks like the world's largest eggbeater.

So why take a second look, and what makes Rogers' approach the most intriguing?

For starters, it's the smallest tower of the three. Between the pavement and the turbine are 1.4 million square feet of space, compared to 1.76 million in Skidmore's tower and 1.6 million in Pelli's. It also has floors of roughly 13,000 square feet from the 35th floor on up. The Skidmore design doesn't slim to that extent until the 71st floor. Pelli doesn't get there until the very peak.

And numbers don't convey the tower's intriguing quirks. The base is narrow but then, five stories in the air, office floors designed for large tenants slice out past the tight frame. When the floors shift to small tenants, the floors pull in; for the hotel they get narrower still. The residential floors slide back and forth in size depending on the units inside, jostling against the scaffold-like braces with their rich orange color.

The most important selling point, though, is the team's terminal design.

Rather than pile platforms on top of each other or add a landscaped roof, the Rogers team and their local collaborator SMWM strip away everything they can -- going so far as to remove the second concourse.

The ground level would be sprinkled with glassy pods for shops, and escalators, and branch-like columns holding up the platforms. Everything else is open; there's not even a roof over the bus lanes, though the waiting areas would be enclosed with glass.

This approach is the one that could finally undo the Transbay Terminal's barrier-like presence across First and Fremont streets. There'd be a 38-foot clearance above the sidewalk, and the platform would be less than 10 feet thick.

This terminal -- colorful, open, with a warm bamboo ceiling above shops and restaurants -- could be the beckoning center of this emerging district. It could even make people want to take the bus.

Yes, the rooftop park in the Pelli-Hines team's proposal is attractive. But it would also be 70 feet above the ground. No matter how enticing it might be, it wouldn't be an integral part of the neighborhood.

Whatever team is selected next month by the Transbay board, these proposals are only the starting point for serious negotiations.

One thing that should be on the table is pulling down the heights -- not drastically, but with an eye to a less gargantuan feel. The reason for such heights is to drive up the cost of the land, but the transit terminal's budget shouldn't determine San Francisco's urban form.

That's another point in the Rogers team's favor: His approach is more about ideas than icons. He's trying to craft a tower that reflects the life within, and a transit hub that is a neighborhood hub as well.

"This isn't meant to be a completed design," he told the Transbay authority board at the unveiling. "It's open-ended, though it has a direction."

The gaunt gleaming look of the tower wouldn't change substantially. But the choice of orange for the frame could change -- it's a too-obvious nod to the Golden Gate Bridge.

This direction involves risks. There's an element of surprise, and the look's not familiar.

But the payoff could be profound: a fresh and inventive definition of what San Francisco can be. It's a risk worth taking.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Rogers Stirk Harbour + Partners design for Forest City Enterprises and MacFarlane Partners

What soars

-- The transit station is lean and lithe, a platform atop artful steel columns. And the open-air space beneath has the potential to be inviting, not oppressive.

-- With elevators racing up the sides, a taut metal frame, and different floor sizes and shapes for each set of uses inside, a tower that looks like a stark machine in drawings could have a kinetic appeal in real life.

What falls flat

-- The wind turbine on top -- held in place by 125-foot-high columns that resemble giant pincers -- may be environmentally worthy, but it looks oversized and out of place.

-- Along First Street, there's a cramped feel to the plaza at the base of the tower.

-- If the different sections of the tower begin to look the same -- if the quirkiness is smoothed out -- the result will be grim.

Pelli Clarke Pelli design for Hines

What soars

-- Imagine a 5.4-acre park stretching above three city blocks -- and being there on a tranquil fall day.

-- The simple obelisk-like shape of the 1,200-foot tower would be enriched by a detailed metal skin.

-- This architect-developer team is responsible for nearby 560 Mission St. -- one of San Francisco's best recent towers.

What falls flat

-- The low-key tower works so hard to be dignified and demure that it has a generic feel.

-- No matter how wonderfully landscaped the park atop the terminal might be, it is 70 feet above street level. That's a long way to go to admire the scenery.

-- The futuristic look of the terminal building would create a visual barrier across First and Fremont streets.

Skidmore Owings & Merrill design for Rockefeller Group Developer Corporation

What soars

-- The 1,375-foot tower with flowing steel lines is like a high-tech Eiffel Tower. It has postcard-ready pizzazz.

-- The full-block entry hall to the terminal has an airy grandeur.

-- The core of the tower -- pierced by a passage 70 feet wide and 103 feet tall, walls cloaked in digital art from SFMOMA -- would be unique and dynamic.

What falls flat

-- The tower may be slender on the top but it's overwhelming on the ground, too much so for an area already crowded with towers.

-- Officials at AC Transit say the team's plan to stack all East Bay bus service on one block would be cumbersome.

-- That grand entry hall might prove ghostly -- it's only one of several pathways to the bus platforms.

Source: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...SBAY.TMP&tsp=1

Naturally, King would think these towers are too tall. I say, they're not tall enough

He also seems to support Rogers the most, no big surprise to me. Thats the least attractive to me. SOM all the way.

"The competition to build a new transit center and skyscraper on Mission Street isn't a beauty contest" Uhhh ... what?
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Last edited by Reminiscence; Aug 12, 2007 at 7:18 AM.
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  #832  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2007, 7:17 AM
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A pox on John King, I say. John King who equally praises suburban strip malls. A pox!
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  #833  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2007, 9:40 AM
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Oh what a surprise. John king says the towers should be shorter. Utterly shocking and out of character. He also said the infinity tower should be cut in half and heightwise and buidingwise (1 tower)
Good thing his opinion is so meaningless.
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  #834  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2007, 2:47 PM
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Seems like his only logic is that it's the shortest of the three. He even wants to take out the wind turbines to make it even shorter . A NIMBY if I've ever seen one! And he wonders why Mission Bay turned out so beige and boring.
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  #835  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2007, 3:20 PM
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S.F Transbay Terminal Competition Video

Hello All,

This is a video I made of the San Francisco Transbay Terminal Competition's public display of the concept at SF City Hall. The link is here:

http://zennie2005.blogspot.com/2007/...al-design.html

I too favor the SOM design because it's the most "San Franciscan" of the three. In other words, it fits within the context of the urban design fabric around it.

I can't see John Kin'g logic here in picking Rogers, but that written I do like their basic approach. In other words, SOM's not heads-and-shoulders over the other schems. In a city that needs more green space, the Pelli concept is perfect.

But the SOM design reads "monunmental" and that's something quite lacking in SF. What's interesting is that it manages to pull this off and fit the SF contest at the same time.
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  #836  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2007, 3:26 PM
zennie62 zennie62 is offline
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Originally Posted by BTinSF View Post
Does the tower entrance remind anyone else of this:


Source: http://www.roadstoiraq.com/2007/02/2...-victory-arch/

Hmm.. I thought Eiffel Tower when I saw it. We talk about that in the video:

http://zennie2005.blogspot.com/2007/...al-design.html
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  #837  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2007, 5:36 PM
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In a city that needs more green space, the Pelli concept is perfect.
I've always found statements like this interesting. We already have the second highest percentage of open space in the country after NYC:

http://www.oasisnyc.net/resources/ci...rcent_city.asp
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  #838  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2007, 5:48 PM
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^^^And we have a lousy track record in recent decades of maintaining and preserving what we have. The Rec & Park Dept. is a political football and like most of the parts of SF Government that actually serve the taxpayers, underfunded. Of course the developers promise to maintain this new park themselves, but what happens when they sell the building (as I'm betting they will) once it's built? The obligation will remain, but will the zeal. The Pelli park especially will require heavy and constant maintenance.

One more thing. The first thing that crossed my mind when I saw it up there 6 stories with escalators to reach it was the BART escalators. In the 26 years I've been living in SF, I don't think they've all been in operation ever--and rarely even a significanrt part of them.
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  #839  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2007, 6:07 PM
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OK John King. I suppose black is white and white is black too. It appears to me that he does not want any development, so he chooses the one that most people do not like and paints it as the best choice in the hopes to convince everyone not to build anything.
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  #840  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2007, 6:37 PM
nequidnimis nequidnimis is offline
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I wish the Roger's competition entry was as impressive as his Leadenhall project:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=129755

But if you consider that what matters in the end is not the renderings, but what gets built, you need to compare the track records of Rogers and of SOM San Francisco (which is a distinct office from other SOM offices). What high-rises have the latter built recently? 101 Second St., the St. Regis Tower. Handsome buildings for sure, but Rogers' work is edgier and more exciting. There a few glimpses of his LLoyd's building on the Leadenhall thread. The pictures do not convey the excitement of the actual building, which its elevators moving up and down make a constantly changing spectacle.

John King's concerns about other teams proposed terminals acting as a barrier, and about the location of the grand entry hall in the SOM proposal in relation to circulation patterns, are spot on.

Finally, I'd worry about any terminal in which the buses are in a glass-enclosed space. The transit authorities may have other priorites than cleaning the glass. And this isn't a train station with electric trains...
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