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  #1101  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2017, 7:07 PM
Catenary Catenary is offline
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
Why? Some drivists have to hold for a bus carrying many more people than they are? Big deal. Hold.
You must have misunderstood my comments. I did not mention anything about leaving space for drivers, only that the bus must stop far enough past the channelization island for the rear door to be flush with the curb, about 35m.

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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
Yes, some excellent research that puts the bus, not the bus passenger, at the centre of consideration.
The thing you neglect is that there are people on that bus, many more people than you perceive to be negatively affected by this situation. If we save 15 people 10 seconds, that's arguably better than saving one person 30 seconds.

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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Then fix the poor road design.
We should, but that's not the point of the discussion. For a number of reasons, we're stuck with what we've got at the moment.

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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Not necessarily. If the bus can completely block the entrance to the right turn cut-off ramp (on the near-side), passengers can safely get on and off the bus onto the ramp. On the far-side, this isn't possible as the bus can only block the exit from the ramp, so the bus needs to drive far enough to get the rear doors onto the sidewalk (either by changing lanes into the ramp or after the ramp ends).
I can't think of how a bus would block access to the ramp while still being able to pull all doors to the curb, and be able to re-enter traffic. A bus needs 20m to pull out of the right turn lane back into the through lane, which is enough space for a vehicle to cut in front.
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  #1102  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2017, 8:17 PM
roger1818 roger1818 is offline
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Originally Posted by Catenary View Post
I can't think of how a bus would block access to the ramp while still being able to pull all doors to the curb, and be able to re-enter traffic. A bus needs 20m to pull out of the right turn lane back into the through lane, which is enough space for a vehicle to cut in front.
My point is the doors don't need to be at the curb if the ramp can be blocked by the bus. I will use the intersection of Montreal Rd and Vanier Parkway as an example (maybe not the best one, but it works well). Looking at the picture below, if a westbound bus on Montreal Rd pulled up to the stop line, even a 40' bus would block access to the right turn cut-off ramp (as the measurement line shows). As such, people could safely use the ramp to get on and off the bus and the doors would be as close as possible to the intersection for easy transfers. When the bus is ready to go, it drives straight ahead, through the intersection (no need to merge). Straight through traffic in that lane could be limited to buses, which would ensure that the bus can get to the stop on a red light (right turning vehicles would quickly get out of the way).



This obviously can't be used everywhere, but it could be used sometimes.
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  #1103  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2017, 1:18 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by Catenary View Post
The thing you neglect is that there are people on that bus, many more people than you perceive to be negatively affected by this situation. If we save 15 people 10 seconds, that's arguably better than saving one person 30 seconds.
Yes, but a good share of those 15 people will also be members of that set of "one person" when they go to board or disembark at an inconveniently-placed stop or try to make a now-awkward kitty-corner connection.
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  #1104  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2017, 2:59 PM
roger1818 roger1818 is offline
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
Yes, but a good share of those 15 people will also be members of that set of "one person" when they go to board or disembark at an inconveniently-placed stop or try to make a now-awkward kitty-corner connection.
True, but there is also the multiplier effect. If there are 10 stops that those 15 people will be delayed by 10 seconds each, that is a 100 second increase in travel time for each person. Better to save 100 seconds at the cost of 30 (or even 60 if it is a problem at both ends of their trip). Now if it is a stop that a large percentage of people will be using, that also changes the math.
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  #1105  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2017, 3:25 PM
bradnixon bradnixon is offline
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
My point is the doors don't need to be at the curb if the ramp can be blocked by the bus. I will use the intersection of Montreal Rd and Vanier Parkway as an example (maybe not the best one, but it works well). Looking at the picture below, if a westbound bus on Montreal Rd pulled up to the stop line, even a 40' bus would block access to the right turn cut-off ramp (as the measurement line shows). As such, people could safely use the ramp to get on and off the bus and the doors would be as close as possible to the intersection for easy transfers. When the bus is ready to go, it drives straight ahead, through the intersection (no need to merge). Straight through traffic in that lane could be limited to buses, which would ensure that the bus can get to the stop on a red light (right turning vehicles would quickly get out of the way).



This obviously can't be used everywhere, but it could be used sometimes.
Besides the fact that asking people to board and alight from the road instead of the sidewalk seems unsafe, and that the high step height will make it difficult for some folks to board or alight from the bus, where would you locate the bus stop/shelter if the setup was as you propose? On that tiny channelization island?
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  #1106  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2017, 4:04 PM
roger1818 roger1818 is offline
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Originally Posted by bradnixon View Post
Besides the fact that asking people to board and alight from the road instead of the sidewalk seems unsafe, and that the high step height will make it difficult for some folks to board or alight from the bus, where would you locate the bus stop/shelter if the setup was as you propose? On that tiny channelization island?
It might seem unsafe, but it is only a perception (they would wait on the sidewalk until the bus arrives). The shelter could be on the sidewalk as normal. Your point about the higher step is well taken but don't forget not all streets with bus service have sidewalks and curbs. Some just have a paved shoulder.
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  #1107  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2017, 3:04 PM
Catenary Catenary is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
It might seem unsafe, but it is only a perception (they would wait on the sidewalk until the bus arrives). The shelter could be on the sidewalk as normal. Your point about the higher step is well taken but don't forget not all streets with bus service have sidewalks and curbs. Some just have a paved shoulder.
The point is that accessibility standards dictate that the bus should pull to the curb when possible. Though the buses can kneel and deploy the ramp without a curb, it takes more time, and is less accessible for all passengers. The larger step also increases dwell time, as less agile passengers grab onto the handles and lower themselves down onto the road. Though there are many locations where passengers board from the shoulder of the road, these stops are usually not very heavily used.

With your concept, the operator also has to wait for passengers to get off the road before driving away, and has to wait for passengers to walk out to the door when arriving at the stop. The liability would just be too great.
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  #1108  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2017, 5:28 PM
roger1818 roger1818 is offline
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Originally Posted by Catenary View Post
The point is that accessibility standards dictate that the bus should pull to the curb when possible. Though the buses can kneel and deploy the ramp without a curb, it takes more time, and is less accessible for all passengers. The larger step also increases dwell time, as less agile passengers grab onto the handles and lower themselves down onto the road. Though there are many locations where passengers board from the shoulder of the road, these stops are usually not very heavily used.

With your concept, the operator also has to wait for passengers to get off the road before driving away, and has to wait for passengers to walk out to the door when arriving at the stop. The liability would just be too great.
All fair points. Looking further at the idea, it will only make about a 40' difference in stop location, so probably not worth it.
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  #1109  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2017, 2:09 AM
Catenary Catenary is offline
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
All fair points. Looking further at the idea, it will only make about a 40' difference in stop location, so probably not worth it.
The point to be made is that we should be eliminating channelized right turns wherever possible. But that has nothing to do with the LRT extension environmental assessment.
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  #1110  
Old Posted Yesterday, 7:56 PM
Multi-modal Multi-modal is offline
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Stage 2 Presentation regarding Lawn Avenue Parkette design. Nothing all that interesting unless you live in the neighborhood.

http://www.stage2lrt.ca/wp-content/u...s_20170914.pdf
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