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  #10701  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2017, 9:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Scottk View Post
I think that sounds great but RTD can't even be bothered to run frequent service on the C Line as it is, I feel like a commuter rail would never happen.

Extremely aggravating that 90% of the time I ride SW line you have to transfer if you are going to or from Union Station.
That's switching soon (January 2018). The C Line will become the main line along the SW Corridor with the D Line becoming the peak period line. This switch will also occur with the advent of the L Line and the D Line no longer going through Five Points.

But then RTD screws up by moving the end of late night service up from after 1AM to after 12A. One step forward, one and a half steps back.
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  #10702  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2017, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
I didn't say they shouldn't. I said they should have used a different type of train on most of the same corridors, with only a couple of tweaks replacing 1 or 2 particularly low-performing existing ROWs with 1 or 2 better existing ROWs.
Clearly I was making the case for what RTD has done in general and Fastracks in particular. I wasn't addressing anything you specifically stated but true that disagreement or other ideas is what blogs are for. With respect to DMU's that holds no appeal for me.
Quote:
  • DMU on the SW corridor as far as Highlands Ranch, w/ fewer stops north of Englewood
With only five stops you'd axe the one stop in Denver at Evans? It does have only average ridership at best but it also serves more of a blue collar area. I say keep it. Highland's Ranchers seem to have no problem finding the Mineral Station; that extra leg would have been pricey which was obviously a consideration. I say: Let em Wait.
Quote:
  • DMU on the SE corridor as far as Lone Tree, w/ a deviation off I-25 into the heart of DTC
Nope, that SE Corridor is already too long and too slow. Now a separate segment that would go there - I assume you're referring to the east side of I-25 - is a fine idea. A last mile shuttle service might be even better.
Quote:
  • DMU on the A line, more or less as it was built, but with an added DMU spur south into Aurora, roughly parallel to Chambers, as far as Alameda.
Interesting; I'll give it a maybe. Worth noting is that density along Chambers starts to pick up about Alameda as you go south from there towards better schools. It would provide a very round-about way to Fitz and no access to Aurora Medical Complex though.
Quote:
  • Scrub the 225 line completely.
You're wanting to axe the 5th busiest station (not counting DUS or DIA) and deny access to all of the eager riders and best part of Aurora in the SE? Totally ridiculous. Nine Mile Station and Dayton are the only two stops.
Quote:
You keep talking about textbook planning as though it has different goals than the goals you say you want.
It has nothing to do with what I want; I was only defending what RTD did. I'm not arguing that a textbook plan wouldn't have been better; I accept that it would have. That's not what RTD designed due to wanting to serve all parts of the metro area (so it would pass voter's smell test) and taking advantage of existing ROW's. Some of your points conflict with each other but nvm it's not a yuge deal.
Quote:
What express route on 225? The R line is slow. It doesn't work as an express. That might be what you want but that isn't what we got.
My one stated must change/preference:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Thanks for the great feedback. That's interesting partly since it shows demand is out there. Obviously the AT line with only two stops on the way to DIA makes for a nice express ride. The R Line? Only if you need a nice long nap before arriving.

As much of a mess as the Aurora/R Line is it is fixable. I've mentioned before but what should have been done from the get-go is to run the line along I-225 with an additional station at the SWC of Alameda. That large area has wonderful redevelopment potential - over time. Acknowledging the politics I won't bother debating the part through the Aurora Metro Center but it should have been a separate segment. Even better... Let's redesign the routes starting with R Line.

Here we go: the R Line leaves Lone Tree right on time with stops at County Line, Arapahoe Village Center, Belleview Station, Nine Mile Station, Iliff Station, the new 'express route' station at Alameda/i-225, Colfax Station and Peoria Station. That cuts the stops by half. Reason for stopping at Iliff Station is the ample parking to relieve parking-constrained Nine Mile Station as well as pulling from some of the same area as well as a different area. That would be a winning route.

With respect to the rest of Aurora it could become an extension of the H Line although they'd act virtually as separate routes from Florida. Obviously the H Line running south and around into downtown Denver is still popular. The slo-mo segment north from there could make all the stops which would serve it's local purpose.
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  #10703  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2017, 1:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
[*]DMU on the west line, more or less as it was built but w/ fewer stations, going all the way to Golden, and with a less restrictive speed limit.
Agreed. I count four of the twelve stations that should have been skipped. Sheridan (not included in my four) was a very logical station. It's inexplicable to me why ridership is rather low, like less than the Florida Station in Aurora which is brand new.
Quote:
  • DMU on the Gold line but ending only 1 station past Old Town Arvada
While reasonable that last station serves Wheatridge so not a good vote-getting idea. Given the line is intended to eventually extend into Golden is also relevant.
Quote:
  • Scrub NW rail completely. Build better BRT.
Logical in hindsight only. You would have likely lost all the voters in Westminster and Boulder county; that might have been a difference maker. Yes, the difference from what is ideal to what will win voter approval are not necessarily the same.
Quote:
LRT on the Central Corridor, then straight down Broadway as far as downtown Englewood
Makes a lot of sense. Ofc my Urban Signature Route (along Speer/Leetsdale) would make even more sense. I had light rail going down So Broadway to the I-25 Station but it could easily extend to Englewood or even Littleton Blvd in a subsequent phase.

Interestingly, I think that having bus hubs at DUS and Civic Center might work just as well at least until Denver can afford to go underground.
Quote:
  • LRT from Union Station to Civic Center, then straight out East Colfax
I'd recommend Modern Streetcar with its somewhat smaller dimensions along East Colfax. But after getting up close with the Colfax Connector analysis and assuming the under consideration upgrade to Real BRT, I think that's the best ticket for that corridor.
Quote:
So look, I want to know what your answers are to the hindsight game. Hypothetically, if you had FasTracks to do over again, what would you change, while still maintaining the relative cost and political compromises necessary to get it built (ie about the same mileage, all on the surface, every jurisdiction gets served about as well)? I find it hard to believe that you wouldn't change anything at all. So tell us. Play the game. Let's see where we actually disagree.
Other than the refinements I've agreed with and the Aurora/R line changes already described I wouldn't change anything. Since I believe in the ultimate success of FasTracks and since Denver RTD is very blessed to have accomplished what it has at a cost that can not be duplicated by a country mile and helped along by raining FTA $'s and is the envy of many, many city/metro areas that are struggling just to get out of the light rail barn with desired plans, why would I?

What is very glaring is the Unfinished Business and need for proposing and passing my suggested D-Met Transport transportation plan which is undergoing revisions - as we speak.
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  #10704  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2017, 5:31 AM
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Re DMUs:
"With respect to DMU's that holds no appeal for me."
Why? What do you care if it's a slightly different kind of train, if the service is about the same? DMUs don't have to look like intercity trains; you can get models that look like and are branded as light rail. Part of my point here is that I'm using the cheaper DMUs to buy other things that I'd like to have. Do you dislike DMUs so much that you'd say "no" to Colfax rail if it meant converting a couple of other LRT lines to DMU, when their frequencies and station-spacing are more appropriate to DMU anyway? Really?

SW line:
Definitely axe Evans as there would be a Broadway LRT station 4 blocks away. Maaaybe axe Oxford too, even though my LRT doesn't go that far and it has good TOD potential. The point here is the Broadway LRT is the local with pretty frequent stops, while the SW DMU is an express that moves faster. Expresses need to have relatively few stops to work.

SE line:
DTC is the one place in the region besides downtown Denver that really shouldn't be optional. The TOD potential there is enormous, for real large-scale legit tens of millions of square feet Union Station-style TODs. But you're right, a deviation there can't be slow. So let's pay for two miles of elevated line through there by eliminating a couple of stations along the way (Louisiana-Pearl and Yale), and ending the line at County Line instead of continuing further south. County Line is a fine location for an end line park-and-ride, and I'd definitely trade away the half-hearted TODs to the south in exchange for vastly better TODs in DTC. The 12 voters Lone Tree had in 2004 aren't a big enough deal to justify the high cost of extending across 470.

A-line spur to Aurora:
The purpose of that line is to satisfy the political requirement to reach Aurora Town Center, and to do it with a faster train that's less expensive. Fitz is served by the Colfax LRT. We lose Aurora hospital but we gain Old Aurora along Colfax.

225 line/Nine Mile:
Yes these are painful losses, but the gains we can pay for by making these cuts far outweigh the losses. We gain Broadway & Colfax LRT and the DTC el. Those are better than Nine Mile! Now, that said, I tell you what: I'm sympathetic to the need for a line that connects people east of Cherry Creek reservoir. But we can't pay for it if we want this other stuff. So let's pencil in a new "future corridor" like the NE as a spur going up to Nine Mile, then out Hampden all the way to 470. We're not building that now as part of our re-imagined FasTracks, but we're putting it at the top of the list for the next generation. Essentially we're trading places with Colfax, doing that now instead of this one, and this one later instead of Colfax. Are you SURE you wouldn't make that trade?

Gold line:
Good point re needing to reach Wheat Ridge. But the "Arvada Ridge" station on Kipling is closer to the center of Wheat Ridge than that Ward Road station anyway, so Let's just rename it "Wheat Ridge" (or "Arvada West/Wheat Ridge" if we must) and declare victory. While we're on the subject of renamings though, I'm replacing stations named for street intersections with neighborhood names wherever practical systemwide. For example, 10th & Osage becomes "Lincoln Park," and Alameda becomes "Baker."

Boulder line:
You're right, that wouldn't have been acceptable to the voters. In that case, let's scrub the BRT completely and build only DMU. End it in Boulder and call Longmont a "future corridor." If budget allows, use money from the canceled BRT to extend the rail into downtown Boulder via Arapaho. But the money probably doesn't allow.

Speer-to-Leetsdale:
I like Broadway-to-Speer-to-Leetsdale. How about this for a proposal: We do Broadway-to-Speer-to-Leetsdale with a stop in Cherry Creek and an eastern terminus at Nine Mile/I-225. In exchange, we cut both my south Broadway Line (I'm loathe to lose Baker but it's worth it for Cherry Creek) and your 225 spur of the SE line. We keep all the existing stations on the SW line, but it still gets converted to DMU. If the money is tight, we'll do it as DMU instead of LRT (stations on Leetdale would be further apart than on south Broadway, so that can work). Deal?

Colfax:
I want Colfax to have a bona fide transitway, and I'd definitely prioritize rail there over other places like 225. It could be streetcar vehicles on the real BRT alignment.
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  #10705  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2017, 9:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post
But then RTD screws up by moving the end of late night service up from after 1AM to after 12A. One step forward, one and a half steps back.
It's all part of RTD's new innovative partnership with Uber and Lyft to drive ride-sharing profits through less and less low-cost competition from transit.
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  #10706  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2017, 2:20 AM
Darius C Darius C is offline
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July 2017 was the busiest month at DEN ever: 5839661 passengers.

More at flydenver.com.
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  #10707  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2017, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
Re DMUs:
"With respect to DMU's that holds no appeal for me."
Why? What do you care if it's a slightly different kind of train, if the service is about the same? DMUs don't have to look like intercity trains; you can get models that look like and are branded as light rail. Part of my point here is that I'm using the cheaper DMUs to buy other things that I'd like to have. Do you dislike DMUs so much that you'd say "no" to Colfax rail if it meant converting a couple of other LRT lines to DMU, when their frequencies and station-spacing are more appropriate to DMU anyway? Really?
Not bad looking buggies. I assume it's (primarily) the cost of electrification that you'd be saving, no? I think it would have been fine for the SW Corridor, the G, B and N Lines. TBO I'm not that familiar with DMU's but I assume a big consideration at the time was being environmentally friendly.

With respect to the SW Corridor that was built so long ago it only cost $20.5 million per mile. RTD received an FTA FFGA for $120 million and $18 million through CDOT/DRCOG which covered 77.5% of the cost. RTD spent less than $40 million. Damn how times have changed.

SE line:
I wouldn't axe Yale. It will take a zoning change but for a few blocks on either side of I-25 there's yuge TOD potential. Interestingly, the east side of I-25 and an area on the west side ie the NWC is in Arapahoe Co. BTW, if Amazon were to pick Lone Tree you'd have a whole different view I'd assume? In any case Lone Tree is easily doing the best planning for denser development.

What's needed for the SE Line is an Express train that makes fewer stops or A and B lines that stop at every other station. No reason why a Modern Streetcar or LRT segment can't be separate from the main corridor for your anticipated DTC TOD.

A-line spur to Aurora:
My already stated modifications are still the best solution. In 15 years you'll understand.

Quote:
Speer-to-Leetsdale:
I like Broadway-to-Speer-to-Leetsdale. How about this for a proposal: We do Broadway-to-Speer-to-Leetsdale with a stop in Cherry Creek and an eastern terminus at Nine Mile/I-225. In exchange, we cut both my south Broadway Line (I'm loathe to lose Baker but it's worth it for Cherry Creek) and your 225 spur of the SE line. We keep all the existing stations on the SW line, but it still gets converted to DMU. If the money is tight, we'll do it as DMU instead of LRT (stations on Leetsdale would be further apart than on south Broadway, so that can work). Deal?
Deal
except it has to be light rail and upgraded cars at that for an urban corridor.

Quote:
Colfax:
I want Colfax to have a bona fide transitway, and I'd definitely prioritize rail there over other places like 225. It could be streetcar vehicles on the real BRT alignment.
I hate to show my wacist side, but I'm totally content with centerline BRT for now. I'll let Roads_Wide_Open make the point. http://denver.streetsblog.org/2017/0...om-colfax-brt/
Quote:
by Roads_Wide_Open
Have anyone else ridden the 15 or 0? Neil is right...the riders are mostly pretty rough. Always stick to the Limited service for these routes; night and day difference.
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  #10708  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2017, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darius C View Post
July 2017 was the busiest month at DEN ever: 5839661 passengers.

More at flydenver.com.
Dang... only bcuz they used to update the Wikipedia page of busiest airports at least once through mid-year. Apparently they no longer do that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...senger_traffic



Photo courtesy of RTD

If this dog ever sniffs bunt's leg and barks while he's on the A train he better run like hell first chance he gets.

MEET THOR, RTD'S NEWEST TRANSIT POLICE OFFICER
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  #10709  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2017, 10:19 PM
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QUESTION: Does anybody (ie PLANSIT) know if RTD ever calculated or has figures for how much it cost on average per parking space at Park n Rides for both surface lots and garage parking?


RTD Makes Request To Start G Line Testing Again
September 18, 2017 By Jamie Leary - CBS4 Denver
Quote:
ARVADA, Colo. (CBS4) – RTD has reached out the the Federal Railroad Administration and the Colorado Public Utilities Commission asking for a permanent waiver to operate the A Line and B Line free from testing and strict regulations. They said in their request last Friday that the new technology, which was causing problems at its crossing gates, is now working.
Nice coverage and video by Jamie Leary at CBS4.

Since this is a first of its kind system means decisions are precedent setting according to RTD's Nate Currey. Therefor the FDA wants to make sure this isn't just Opioids in disguise. Who knows what the FRA is doing or thinking? The Colorado Public Utilities Commission is checking the first three crossings now.
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  #10710  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2017, 2:44 AM
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Has anyone been on any of RTD's trains with the new handicapped seating set up? Absolutely ridiculous. They removed an entire section of seats on both sides and ends of the train for a total reduction per car of 16 "seats." They no longer have the sensible fold up seats at the front and back.

Wtf ?!
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  #10711  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2017, 3:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottk View Post
Has anyone been on any of RTD's trains with the new handicapped seating set up? Absolutely ridiculous. They removed an entire section of seats on both sides and ends of the train for a total reduction per car of 16 "seats." They no longer have the sensible fold up seats at the front and back.

Wtf ?!
http://www.denverpost.com/2017/04/26...ty-light-rail/

Colorado Cross Disability Coalition chalks up another win for the forgotten and oppressed.
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  #10712  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2017, 7:07 PM
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I have taken 100 trips on the light rail in the last year. My wife has taken 250 trips on the light rail in the last year. Neither of us have ever witnessed a person in a wheel chair forced to be in the aisle. The lawsuit claimed "they are often forced to be in the aisle." With the burden of proof falling on the hands of the party suing, I wonder how they were able to prove this false fact in court?
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  #10713  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2017, 7:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnyderBock View Post
I have taken 100 trips on the light rail in the last year. My wife has taken 250 trips on the light rail in the last year. Neither of us have ever witnessed a person in a wheel chair forced to be in the aisle. The lawsuit claimed "they are often forced to be in the aisle." With the burden of proof falling on the hands of the party suing, I wonder how they were able to prove this false fact in court?
Colorado Cross Disability Coalition, and ADAPT before that, has made RTD their bitch since the 1980's when it comes to accessibility to public transit for the disabled.

Snyder, it didn't go to trail- the case was settled.
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  #10714  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2017, 8:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
QUESTION: Does anybody (ie PLANSIT) know if RTD ever calculated or has figures for how much it cost on average per parking space at Park n Rides for both surface lots and garage parking?


RTD Makes Request To Start G Line Testing Again
September 18, 2017 By Jamie Leary - CBS4 Denver

Nice coverage and video by Jamie Leary at CBS4.

Since this is a first of its kind system means decisions are precedent setting according to RTD's Nate Currey. Therefor the FDA wants to make sure this isn't just Opioids in disguise. Who knows what the FRA is doing or thinking? The Colorado Public Utilities Commission is checking the first three crossings now.
Typical industry standard around Colorado is around $3,000 - $4,000 per space on a surface lot, and $15,000 - $17,000 for above grade structured parking. It can double that for below grade levels.
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  #10715  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2017, 1:25 AM
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EngiNerd... Appreciate the feedback. I'll assume that RTD likely managed the lower part of those numbers, maybe even less given their timing.

One reason why I was curious goes to a recent article about the escalation of new garage parking costs in Seattle to now about $118,000 a space, at least in one case. When the recession hit they postponed building a promised garage facility and made the mistake of not at least acquiring the land. Now everything has doubled in cost. Seattle is high on everything at this point though.

A second reason is articles often pop up on StreetsBlog about parking not worth the price, yada yada. Since with me context is everything and everything is local I became curious what RTD might have paid - so thanks again.
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  #10716  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2017, 3:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post
http://www.denverpost.com/2017/04/26...ty-light-rail/

Colorado Cross Disability Coalition chalks up another win for the forgotten and oppressed.
This is absolutely ridiculous. I ride the train 4 days a week and have seen disabled people in the aisle maybe once. This is a 64 seat reduction per 4 car train. That is insane.

Thing that really bothers me about this is that with the new setup there is barely any more space for wheelchairs then there was before.

Unbelievable.
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  #10717  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2017, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottk View Post
This is absolutely ridiculous. I ride the train 4 days a week and have seen disabled people in the aisle maybe once. This is a 64 seat reduction per 4 car train. That is insane.

Thing that really bothers me about this is that with the new setup there is barely any more space for wheelchairs then there was before.

Unbelievable.
I think it's great. We already have child-sized transit vehicles with aisles that where two people literally can not pass each other; it slows the whole process down unnecessarily. These are not the trains of a real city. Fewer seats is exactly what they need.
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  #10718  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2017, 1:58 PM
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Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
I think it's great. We already have child-sized transit vehicles with aisles that where two people literally can not pass each other; it slows the whole process down unnecessarily. These are not the trains of a real city. Fewer seats is exactly what they need.
I was thinking this very thing when trying to push past people to get on a train and seeing that there were a bunch of double seats that were taken by single travelers - people with luggage heading to the A, random yuppie manspreaders, weird stinky crackheads...
It's made worse because the only places to stand where you aren't annoyingly close to people sitting AND blocking the aisle is the 4 spots in the middle of the train or right in front of the doors.

I'm amazed that they haven't removed all the seats and just put in benches on the sides - it's how every subway in the world packs more people into a train car.
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  #10719  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2017, 6:13 PM
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Here's how the Berlin S-Bahn does disabled seating:


Source

Note that the are spring-loaded seats flip up when not in use. It's great because the seats stay out of the way for people with luggage, bikes, wheelchairs, baby carriages, and yuppies who get irritated easily.


Berlin is updating their S-Bahn trains, so this will be the new look.



Video source.
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  #10720  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2017, 9:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
EngiNerd... Appreciate the feedback. I'll assume that RTD likely managed the lower part of those numbers, maybe even less given their timing.

One reason why I was curious goes to a recent article about the escalation of new garage parking costs in Seattle to now about $118,000 a space, at least in one case. When the recession hit they postponed building a promised garage facility and made the mistake of not at least acquiring the land. Now everything has doubled in cost. Seattle is high on everything at this point though.

A second reason is articles often pop up on StreetsBlog about parking not worth the price, yada yada. Since with me context is everything and everything is local I became curious what RTD might have paid - so thanks again.
$100k+ per stall is completely absurd, especially for a big garage. The most I have ever seen was on The Hill in Boulder where a small multi-story below grade parking garage was being proposed below a new apartment building, which was going to be around $60k per stall. This was mainly due to the inefficiency (area per parking stall) of the site to accommodate parking layouts and because the garage was being built below the water table.
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