Pedestrian Crossovers

[JM1]

I see that next week's transportation committee will review a report on pedestrian crossovers. This is an interesting development. After working to eliminate these PXO's as they are referred to in the past decades, the report says that the reason they were eliminated, namely that they do not work and are dangerous, is refuted.

I think these might introduce safety for pedestrian crossings at a number of locations where the investment in full signals is not merited. I am thinking, for example, of the child that was hit by a bus while crossing St Laurent near the eastern entrance to Beechwood cemetery last year. There is a long stretch of road there between signals and there is demand for use of the busses on the southbound routes on St. Laurent which requires acccess from the east side of St. Laurent.

I would also consider PXO's on Island Park, Prince of Wales, Queen Elizabeth, Colonel By, Blair, Coventry, and Richmond Road (West of Carling). Other places where such PXO's could help would include Hemlock where there are isolated bus stops on the south side of Hemlock with no signals for transit users to get across Hemlock.

Unfortunately, the problem with PXO's is that the warrants for them are set too high. While all of the roads I have mentioned meet the car traffic requirements, they might not meet the pedestrian traffic requirements. To some extent, I think this is because pedestrians have given up on trying to cross.

For the report see item 2 on the March 5, 2014 Transportation Committee Agenda:

http://app05.ottawa.ca/sirepub/mtgvi...doctype=AGENDA

[waterloowarrior]

I never got how every other province and country has non-signalized pedestrian crossing where pedestrians have the right of way but for some reason engineers think they are too dangerous in Ontario.

[McC]

Doesn't Toronto have crosswalks? they did last time I drove there (ancient history!)

I heard on the radio not too long ago that it cost something like $300K to install a signalized crossing last year. It's just craziness to me that we can't have a couple of simple crosswalk signs, each with a solar panel powering a flashing yellow light for pedestrians to cross, say ColByDr at Clegg St. or Bank St; at the very least try a pilot project during Winterlude!

[JM1]

Toronto does have still have marked crosswalks (or crossovers). I know of several of them.

Originally Posted by McC

Doesn't Toronto have crosswalks? they did last time I drove there (ancient history!)

I heard on the radio not too long ago that it cost something like $300K to install a signalized crossing last year. It's just craziness to me that we can't have a couple of simple crosswalk signs, each with a solar panel powering a flashing yellow light for pedestrians to cross, say ColByDr at Clegg St. or Bank St; at the very least try a pilot project during Winterlude!

[waterloowarrior]

The Toronto crossovers with overhead signals can be expensive to install, which is why there is an initiative to have signed crossings (like everywhere else). Also engineers don't like them because people aren't used to them.. so they remove existing ones and don't put in new ones instead of making them more common.

[rocketphish]

Does anybody know why these are called "crossovers"? I immediately thought we were talking about some sort of pedestrian bridge to cross over the road, when in fact these are merely crosswalks.

[McC]

ditto. I'd never heard the term before.

[JM1]

I grew up calling them crosswalks too. But I think technically (someone correct me if I am wrong), a crosswalk is just the painted strip on the road that can be found at most signalized intersections and at "crossovers".

Originally Posted by McC

ditto. I'd never heard the term before.

[waterloowarrior]

Crossover are these things



(MTO)

Ontario Drivers legally have to stop for pedestrian traffic at these. They don't have to at signed/painted crosswalks unless located at an intersection or controlled by a crossing guard. The MTO is currently reviewing the handbook/regulation/signage and the government will hopefully update this soon.

[gjhall]

The trouble with warrants, per a quote from Brent Toderian:

"Its hard to justify a bridge by the number of people swimming across a river."

Would anyone attempt to walk across Laurier Avenue between City Hall and Confederation Park without the crosswalk? Come on.

I agree that the warrant system is useful for some things, like determining if a stop sign is needed, but on very busy roads, we need an alternative system that explicitly looks to increase and provide access for pedestrian connections that don't exist yet.

[JM1]

Very well put. I was trying to think of how to point out the fallacy of warrants, but could not come up with anything as clever as the bridge argument!

Originally Posted by gjhall

The trouble with warrants, per a quote from Brent Toderian:

"Its hard to justify a bridge by the number of people swimming across a river."

Would anyone attempt to walk across Laurier Avenue between City Hall and Confederation Park without the crosswalk? Come on.

I agree that the warrant system is useful for some things, like determining if a stop sign is needed, but on very busy roads, we need an alternative system that explicitly looks to increase and provide access for pedestrian connections that don't exist yet.

[rocketphish]

OK, so it's a signalized crosswalk. That's nice. Yawn.

[JM1]

I believe the last few posts belong in the discussion on pedestrian bridges.

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

^ Exactly. It's not a simple matter of getting a bunch of workers to build it tomorrow. There's a bunch of dependencies that have to be met. It is much financially efficient to integrate it into the Highway 417 widening, as that way the projects can share equipment, use the same contractor, etc. It would be extremely wasteful to dig all around the area to install a new bridge when you're just going to have to dig it up all again a year later for the road widening.

The way the city is handling this is quite smart. A single contractor--RTG--is building the Confederation Line, the 417 widening, Coventry Bridge, end-of-life bridge replacements around Highway 417, water/sewer reconstruction of Queen Street, and a bunch of other related projects. It allows all the projects to be handled together which ultimately makes them all cheaper.

[waterloowarrior]

^moved http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...175528&page=10

[waterloowarrior]

good news, the government has introduced legislation to add these new pedestrian crossovers among other changes.... hopefully many more will be implemented in Ottawa
http://news.ontario.ca/mto/en/2014/0...-safe-act.html

[Buggys]

Amending the Highway Traffic Act or new pedestrian crossing devices on low-speed and low-volume roads as requested by municipalities

Interesting that this line needs to be added, to specifically permit signalized pedestrian crossings.

I've seen lots of these crossings in ontario. Were those crossings built illegally by municipalities in their bid to prevent human roadkill???

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by Buggys

Interesting that this line needs to be added, to specifically permit signalized pedestrian crossings.

I've seen lots of these crossings in ontario. Were those crossings built illegally by municipalities in their bid to prevent human roadkill???

The new legislation is to permit unsignalized crossings... especially useful mid-block where stop signs and traffic signals would'n't appropriate

Right now outside of signalized intersections you need something like this.... Municipalities can't afford to afford to put these up everywhere and the warrants to require them can be quite hard to get.



So many places (besides Toronto) either have very few pedestrian crossings outside of intersections or put up these "courtesy crossings" which have no legal standing



With this new legislation we will be able to have signed mid-block pedestrian crossings like the rest of the country/continent/world. The new signs will look something like this:

http://goo.gl/maps/d8nfw

or this

http://goo.gl/maps/Lp6XV

[McC]

which means they won't cost $300K to install, yay!

[umbria27]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

The new legislation is to permit unsignalized crossings... especially useful mid-block where stop signs and traffic signals would'n't appropriate

Right now outside of signalized intersections you need something like this.... Municipalities can't afford to afford to put these up everywhere and the warrants to require them can be quite hard to get.



So many places (besides Toronto) either have very few pedestrian crossings outside of intersections or put up these "courtesy crossings" which have no legal standing



With this new legislation we will be able to have signed mid-block pedestrian crossings like the rest of the country/continent/world. The new signs will look something like this:

http://goo.gl/maps/d8nfw

or this

http://goo.gl/maps/Lp6XV

So, am I understanding this right, these will not be "courtesy" crosswalks? Motorists will be legally obliged to stop for crossing pedestrians?

[waterloowarrior]

The education campaign is beginning
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/saf...n-safety.shtml

Some images of the new signs