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  #41  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2014, 8:17 PM
Dr.Z Dr.Z is offline
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And do you guys realise that, excluding Ottawa, we're talking about controlling growth of a 2011 population of 140,000 on the Ontario side? Include Cornwall, Prescott (city), and Brockville and we're knocking on a door of only 220,000 people, that might grow to 250,000 or 275,000 collectively by 2031? So a 30,000-50,000 pop increase. Over a gigantic area. With no transit. I'm scratching my head.

Gatineau (Ville) alone had 265,000 people in 2011 and transit. The outlying QC areas in total had about 330,000 in 2011. They might grow about 150,000 by 2031. But a PtG can't do squat about their growth pattern.

So for what purpose PtG Eastern Ontario?
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  #42  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2014, 8:28 PM
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Planners gotta plan, yo!
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  #43  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2014, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr.Z View Post
And do you guys realise that, excluding Ottawa, we're talking about controlling growth of a 2011 population of 140,000 on the Ontario side? Include Cornwall, Prescott (city), and Brockville and we're knocking on a door of only 220,000 people, that might grow to 250,000 or 275,000 collectively by 2031? So a 30,000-50,000 pop increase. Over a gigantic area. With no transit. I'm scratching my head.

Gatineau (Ville) alone had 265,000 people in 2011 and transit. The outlying QC areas in total had about 330,000 in 2011. They might grow about 150,000 by 2031. But a PtG can't do squat about their growth pattern.

So for what purpose PtG Eastern Ontario?
To stop 905-level suburbs from emerging in places like Carleton Place, Rockland, or Kemptville long before they actually do. If Toronto had a regional growth plan in place in the 1970s, sprawl would have far less of a reach there than it does today.
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  #44  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2014, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
To stop 905-level suburbs from emerging in places like Carleton Place, Rockland, or Kemptville long before they actually do. If Toronto had a regional growth plan in place in the 1970s, sprawl would have far less of a reach there than it does today.
There was regional planning in the GTA in the 70s... although never implemented to the level of the Growth Plan. Here's some good history
http://www.neptis.org/geoweb/data-ca...-jurisdictions
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  #45  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2014, 1:18 PM
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To stop 905-level suburbs from emerging in places like Carleton Place, Rockland, or Kemptville long before they actually do. If Toronto had a regional growth plan in place in the 1970s, sprawl would have far less of a reach there than it does today.
There will not be 905-level sprawl in Carleton Place, Rockland or Kemptville for like 100+ hundred years, if ever. All of the outlying Ottawa municipalites have a growth projection that is the same as one lower tier municipality in the GGH.

PtG redirects intensification that would have already occured to higher-order transit stations. There are no transit stations in these outlying areas. Intensification is hardly occuring in these outlying areas, with the possible exception of CR. PtG puts additional checks in place for employment lands conversions. There are no employment land conversions in these outlying areas, if they have them at all. GGH and Eastern ON are completely different leagues. PtG is effective only when an urban area reaches a certain threshold/maturity. Eastern ON is not there and probably won't get there for some time, if at all, because there is no major non-population employment sector driver like there was/is in the GGH.

There is a reason why the PPS has mandated sprawl since post-WWII: housing affordability for family formation households.
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  #46  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2014, 2:28 PM
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Another important point is the large boundaries of Ottawa. Through the Official Plan the City already has control of growth within 30-50 KM of downtown, depending on the direction. So the equivalent distance of 905 suburbs like Mississauga, Brampton, Richmond Hill, Pickering is all within Ottawa city limits, with Gatineau being the major exception.
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  #47  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2014, 8:10 PM
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Another important point is the large boundaries of Ottawa. Through the Official Plan the City already has control of growth within 30-50 KM of downtown, depending on the direction. So the equivalent distance of 905 suburbs like Mississauga, Brampton, Richmond Hill, Pickering is all within Ottawa city limits, with Gatineau being the major exception.
Many of the 905-area suburbs, and especially exurbs, of Toronto are about 80 to 120 km away from downtown though (mind you, that is dealing with a much larger urban area - almost no one commutes 100 km into Ottawa, that would be the equivalent of coming from Hawkesbury, Cornwall, Brockville, Perth or Renfrew, all of which are pretty much beyond commuting range - and generally with stagnant or declining population right now). GO trains and buses go as far as 150 km from downtown Toronto.

The rough distance of the City of Ottawa outer boundary (about 30-50 km from downtown in most directions) would have it squarely in suburban areas in the GTA.

Back to the Ottawa region, population trends is a good way to figure out where the commuting area reaches. Most municipalities - large and small - beyond it are seeing minimal population growth, or in many cases, population declines right now.
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  #48  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2014, 8:19 PM
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As for any Places to Grow act incorporating Quebec, it might not be impossible...the governments on both sides of the river are (and likely will be indefinitely) in tune with each other, and have already been friendly with each other.
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  #49  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2014, 8:43 PM
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Many of the 905-area suburbs, and especially exurbs, of Toronto are about 80 to 120 km away from downtown though (mind you, that is dealing with a much larger urban area - almost no one commutes 100 km into Ottawa, that would be the equivalent of coming from Hawkesbury, Cornwall, Brockville, Perth or Renfrew, all of which are pretty much beyond commuting range - and generally with stagnant or declining population right now). GO trains and buses go as far as 150 km from downtown Toronto.

The rough distance of the City of Ottawa outer boundary (about 30-50 km from downtown in most directions) would have it squarely in suburban areas in the GTA.

Back to the Ottawa region, population trends is a good way to figure out where the commuting area reaches. Most municipalities - large and small - beyond it are seeing minimal population growth, or in many cases, population declines right now.
I know of several colleagues at my workplace who commute from Hawkesbury, and I have worked with someone in the past who commuted from Brockville.
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  #50  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2014, 9:18 PM
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^ That's very much not the norm though. The percentage of the population of Hawkesbury or Brockville that commutes to Ottawa is probably less than 20%. I mean, not even Carleton Place has more than 50% commuting to Ottawa (on the Ontario side, only Clarence-Rockland & Russell Township meet that threshold).
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  #51  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2014, 11:43 PM
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^ That's very much not the norm though. The percentage of the population of Hawkesbury or Brockville that commutes to Ottawa is probably less than 20%. I mean, not even Carleton Place has more than 50% commuting to Ottawa (on the Ontario side, only Clarence-Rockland & Russell Township meet that threshold).
I'd be shocked if it is even 5% of the population that far out.

One thing worth noting for commuting flows that I found out: Kanata is considered, by Statistics Canada, a secondary centre, not part of the urban core. Hence commuters to there are NOT calculated for purposes of commuting flows to the core areas. Nowhere else in the Ottawa urban area is considered such.

As mentioned, it is likely that more people in Russell County work in downtown Ottawa than even in Kanata, forget places farther west.
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  #52  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2014, 3:04 AM
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No, but that seems more extreme than anything I have seen from an elected representative in Canada. Even her boss doesn't seem to like her, but they probably fear a revolt in the riding if she was upstaged.
She's not that popular. I suppose people see her as a fixture, in a way (or gotten used to it), but her current position has more to do with the gun registry, military, etc, than any popularity. People here like the Conservative party, not necessarily Gallant.

This was a Liberal riding for like 50 years until the gun registry happened, then then Gallant squeaked in (in an interesting fashion) and has been here ever since. Also, the Liberals have shifted to the left in some issues, and, since we've got an aging population, this upset the balance a bit. Finally, since her first win, there's been a huge turnover of opposition candidates, and nobody with any name recognition (or almost nobody).
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  #53  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2014, 7:10 PM
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As for any Places to Grow act incorporating Quebec, it might not be impossible...the governments on both sides of the river are (and likely will be indefinitely) in tune with each other, and have already been friendly with each other.
To the point of having some type of common planning legislation or policies that are generally under provincial jurisdiction?
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  #54  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2014, 7:15 PM
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Why not? Gatineau could ask the province for a municipal charter (like Québec City and Montreal) to allow it to better align its practices with Ottawa's. That said, I'm not familiar with how Ontarians municipalities work.
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  #55  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2014, 10:32 PM
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To the point of having some type of common planning legislation or policies that are generally under provincial jurisdiction?
It would amount to something akin to a treaty between the two provinces, and, most likely, the federal government, that basically removes the two (or three: Ottawa, Gatineau and MRC des Collines) municipalities from current provincial planning legislation and grants them (and probably the feds via the NCC) a new common planning framework to work under.

But in truth, the impetus would have to come from the mayors, and since we've got visionfree Jim the happy municipal manager in charge over here, we're not going to see anything like this any time soon.
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  #56  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2014, 2:29 AM
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It would amount to something akin to a treaty between the two provinces, and, most likely, the federal government, that basically removes the two (or three: Ottawa, Gatineau and MRC des Collines) municipalities from current provincial planning legislation and grants them (and probably the feds via the NCC) a new common planning framework to work under.

But in truth, the impetus would have to come from the mayors, and since we've got visionfree Jim the happy municipal manager in charge over here, we're not going to see anything like this any time soon.
I'd be really happy with common planning between Gatineau and MRC des Collines as a first step.
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  #57  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2014, 2:35 AM
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As with most other anti-sprawl schemes, Places to Grow didn't do much to actually reduce sprawl because it just encouraged development beyond the restricted zone (905 restrictions led to more growth in the 705 and 519) where the provincial government handed out exemptions like candy on halloween. It is unclear why it would work any differently in the Ottawa or Gatineau areas.

Actual anti-sprawl measures would go after commuters with road tolls or punishing gasoline taxes, which no political party is able to stomach.
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http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspa...wl_walkom.html


Ontario Liberals undermined own plan to control sprawl: Walkom
Seven years ago, the Ontario government's plan to protect dwindling farmland was lauded as visionary. In fact, it's been a bust.

The Ontario Liberals were praised for their 2006 plan to protect farmland from development. Seven years later, it is as if nothing had ever happened, writes Thomas Walkom.

By: Thomas Walkom National Affairs, Published on Fri Nov 08 2013
Seven years ago, the Ontario Liberal government trumpeted its new law to curb urban sprawl as bold and visionary.
“People want to see action,” David Caplan, the province’s then infrastructure minister, said after announcing the province’s fully fleshed-out Places to Grow Act in 2006.
Acting in tandem with the Liberal plan to create a green belt, Places to Grow was designed to protect farmland in southern Ontario’s so-called Golden Horseshoe.
Unless something drastic was done, an earlier government study had warned, rampant urban development would result in an additional 1,000 square kilometres of mainly agricultural land — an area twice as big as the entire City of Toronto — being paved over by the year 2031.
Caplan called the new law Ontario’s “last chance to build the future we want.”
The Liberals were lionized for the new scheme by both press and public. The government even won a prestigious U.S. planning award.
But seven years later, it is as if nothing had ever happened.
A new study by the Neptis Foundation, an urban think tank, calculates that the amount of prime farmland slated for urban development by 2031 has in fact increased since the government uttered its first, dire warning.
That new total now stands at 1,071 square kilometres.
What happened? As the Star’s Susan Pigg reported this week, Neptis found that the Liberal government simply never bothered to implement its bold new law.
That law, Neptis writes in its just-released report, “has been undermined before it even had a chance to make an impact.”
At the heart of the Places to Grow Act was a requirement that municipalities in a belt running from Peterborough to Niagara Falls authorize fewer sprawling subdivisions.
Instead, most municipalities were expected to locate at least 40 per cent of any new residential development in areas that were already built up.
In practical terms, it was a requirement to concentrate on higher-density accommodation — from highrise apartment buildings to row housing.
New subdivisions wouldn’t be banned. But under the law, they had to be dense enough to support public transit.
Because the area covered by the law was so diverse (it includes both cities and cottage country), municipalities were allowed to seek exemptions.
The theory, apparently, was that while the government would grant exemptions that made sense, it wouldn’t allow the act to be subverted.
However, the reality, as Neptis researchers found, was quite different.
In effect, the Liberal government allowed every municipality that wanted to be exempted from the new standards to be exempted.
“There was very little justification given as to why exemptions were permitted,” report co-author Rian Allen told me.
“Those who asked for exemptions appeared to get them.”
This was particularly true of municipalities in the so-called outer ring of the Golden Horseshoe, in places like Simcoe County (near Barrie) and Wellington County (near Guelph).
All in all, more than half the municipalities in the outer ring have received exemptions from the density minimums.
And because those minimums are so low, even municipalities that meet provincial targets will remain subject to sprawl.
Allen points out that York Region, for instance, is expected to have only half of Toronto’s population by 2031 even though it occupies more than twice the space.
The province had predicted it would save 800 square kilometres of farmland from development. That goal won’t be met says Neptis.
That the Liberals undermined their own plan should, perhaps, come as no surprise. Land development is big business in Ontario.
Municipal governments pay a great deal of attention to developers. So do provincial political parties seeking financial contributions.
More to the point, many voters want to live in the sprawling subdivisions that these developers build.
Still, even for a government that has specialized in big talk and minimal action (nursing homes; poverty reduction), this is an astonishing failure.
Thomas Walkom's column appears Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday.
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  #58  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2014, 11:11 AM
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^ There has been a huge increase in the percentage of growth driven by intensification in the GTA since Places to Grow was passed, though. It may be largely because of factors beyond the government's control (the old correlation-causation issue, in other words), but the regional planning framework it created has to have had some level of positive impact. From what I gather PtG did create the necessary planning framework allowing for the new urban nodes in the 905--like Downtown Markham, Vaughan Centre, etc.--to become reality, although that could have been easily achieved from municipal zoning changes or an MZO.

Here's hoping insertnamehere reads this thread. He knows Toronto planning inside and out and would be able to answer this question.
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  #59  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2014, 4:01 PM
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Originally Posted by bradnixon View Post
I know of several colleagues at my workplace who commute from Hawkesbury, and I have worked with someone in the past who commuted from Brockville.
I've known of people who've commuted from the island of Montreal, but, yeah, it's not common.
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  #60  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2014, 9:08 PM
Dr.Z Dr.Z is offline
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
^ There has been a huge increase in the percentage of growth driven by intensification in the GTA since Places to Grow was passed, though. It may be largely because of factors beyond the government's control (the old correlation-causation issue, in other words), but the regional planning framework it created has to have had some level of positive impact. From what I gather PtG did create the necessary planning framework allowing for the new urban nodes in the 905--like Downtown Markham, Vaughan Centre, etc.--to become reality, although that could have been easily achieved from municipal zoning changes or an MZO.
Let's not assign unneccesary weight to the influences of PtG: intensification has been a trend for some time throughout North America and before the first municipality implemented PtG (even to date the first wave of upper/single tier GTA municipalites have their plans at the Board). I'm sure it helped, a little, but really it was not the cause of the GTAs recent growth pattern. If PtG as so significant we would not have seen similar patterns in other parts of the country/continent.

As for Eastern ON growth patterns I just read somewhere that UCLG has a 20 year growth projection of...wait for it....10,000. Eastern ON does not need a growth plan. Eastern ON needs growth first.
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