Phoenix CityScape Thread - Page 10

HooverDam · #**181** Posted **Feb 13, 2007, 2:10 PM**

JI5 and NorthScottsdale, I'm very happy that a company is willing to put such a huge investment into downtown Phoenix however...

I don't think its unfair to be disappointed in their lousy design. If we can get them to open it up a bit more and stop turning its back on the street, why shouldn't we? This project is going on such a key location, we only have one chance not to screw it up. It could potentially connect USAC, the office buildings along Washington, the Collier Center, the Luhrs Buildings, the Old City Hall, Majerle's (and the other retail along Wash.), and also the northernmost part of the warehouse district....thats an opportunity we should be careful not to squander.

sundevilgrad · #**182** Posted **Feb 13, 2007, 2:27 PM**

I usually try to be a “glass ½ full” kind of guy, but at heart I’m a pessimist. This project is already on the same path as the W. The City Council will approve it, but somewhere along the way a lawsuit and possibly a public vote will stall the project. Hopefully, RED doesn’t get cold feet. This project has got to go through, in any format, for that area of downtown to have any chance in the next 10-20 years. Remember, the 3 blocks we’re talking about are a crappy park nobody uses and 2 huge surface parking lots. Regardless what you think of the design of the park, if you really care about the development of DT, you’ve got to be behind this project.

I understand a lot of people are pissed because the developer isn’t exactly listening to the comments that have been submitted, but come on people! Do you honestly expect that someone with the money to buy those lots and fund the construction of a project like Cityscape will let normal Joes play with the land and design what they want? No! They didn’t get rich by doing that, and they sure as hell won’t start doing it with a signature project in America’s 5th largest city. Of course they’re going to design it how they want. Like others have said, sit back and enjoy, and try not to get in the way. If you don’t like the new design, don’t use it. You didn’t use PSP anyway, and there are plenty of other parking lots downtown, so wouldn’t it be a wash anyway?

PHX_PD · #**183** Posted **Feb 13, 2007, 2:48 PM**

^ Couldn't agree with you more. Some of the negative press this development is getting is starting to make me a little nervous. I don't mind the current design all that much... I'd be happy to see pretty much anything built there at this point.

combusean · #**184** Posted **Feb 13, 2007, 2:50 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorthScottsdale

just chill out and let this thing happen... bueno?

No.

BA744PHX · #**185** Posted **Feb 13, 2007, 3:19 PM**

They all have to much time on their hand so thats why they oppose whats going to happen to PSP. The even more sicker thing about them is that 99.9999% dont even go to PSP but they sure in the hell will fight to keep that piece of s!&^!!!

HX_Guy · #**186** Posted **Feb 13, 2007, 3:58 PM**

I can't stand that sort of mentality..."Well if I can't have it, neither should you" type of thing. Many people who oppose this don't use the park.

I hope everyone sets some time apart on Feb. 22nd to make it to the meeting.

nbrindley · #**187** Posted **Feb 13, 2007, 4:06 PM**

I want to see Cityscape happen as much as anyone, but really, the public deserves input on this project. If it were solely a private development, then sure, they can build what they want as long as the city approves. But this project is being subsidized with millions of dollars of taxpayer money ($90 million?). In addition to that, the city is giving the developers a city park located in the choicest location downtown with a multi-level parking garage under it. How much is that donation worth? How much would it cost RED to build a comparable garage to the one they are getting for free? The city is giving RED a lot of money to build this project, one that RED has admitted would not be possible without the city's help, so I believe that RED has an obligation to listen to the public input and take it seriously and not brush it off.

HooverDam · #**188** Posted **Feb 13, 2007, 4:20 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by HX_Guy

I can't stand that sort of mentality..."Well if I can't have it, neither should you" type of thing. Many people who oppose this don't use the park.

I hope everyone sets some time apart on Feb. 22nd to make it to the meeting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daltnpapi4u

They all have to much time on their hand so thats why they oppose whats going to happen to PSP. The even more sicker thing about them is that 99.9999% dont even go to PSP but they sure in the hell will fight to keep that piece of s!&^!!!

Erg, at first it was some of the "Save PSP" people who weren't listening, now the shoe seems to be on the other foot.

PLEASE READ CAREFULLY:
No one (on this board) wants to keep the area as it is, we know surface lots and PSP suck. However, the current design has a lot of issues, and they should be worked on and improved. It isn't wrong, or ridiculous or anything else, for people to hope for (and try to achieve) the best possibly design for this key location.

We all want Cityscape to happen in full, its just a matter of this current (flawed) design, or perhaps an improved design. If by emailing RED, going to the Feb 22nd meeting, etc can bring a better design to the table- then why not do it?

HX_Guy · #**189** Posted **Feb 13, 2007, 4:32 PM**

I see what you're saying HooverDam...but it really doesn't seem like RED will be making many, if any, changes.

So I'm seeing it come down to this...

RED backs off and we get a PSP that remains exactly as it is, along with the two surface parking lots that are there.

or...

RED gets the support they need for this to proceed and things change. We end up with two parking lots gone and another block redeveloped into somthing that will work better then it does now. It might not work the best it could but I don't think anyone doubts it would work better then it does now.

CANUC · #**190** Posted **Feb 13, 2007, 4:53 PM**

^ But there is a third scenario. RED gets the block from the city along with financial assistance in terms of tax breaks and they still don’t develop the PSP block. They end up building just one mixed use tower and never develop any of the other blocks. At that point they can just sit on the other two blocks for years, think Collier Center. What then? They can sell the block between 1st and 2nd streets to recoup the 25 million they paid for the block between Central and 1st street. So we would still end up with the same PSP, a surface parking and possibly one tower. A tower which wouldn’t be much different than 44 Monroe which by the way didn’t need all the financial assistance RED is asking for.

HX_Guy · #**191** Posted **Feb 13, 2007, 4:57 PM**

If I remember correctly, they have to do quite a bit more then that in order to get the incentives and tax breaks.

I've been trying to find the article that had the information originally, but it was something like 500 residential (44 Monroe has 202, so 500 would definitely require two towers, or one fat tall on I guess) plus something like 250,000 sq ft of office and I forget how much retail. They also wouldn't get the $90 million or however much it is until Phase I is complete and work starts on Phase II.

I'll keep looking for the actual article so the numbers are more accurate.

HX_Guy · #**192** Posted **Feb 13, 2007, 5:09 PM**

Found it...

Ordinance S-33380 authorizing the City Manager to enter into development agreements, leases and other necessary agreements with RED Development, LLC for a mixed-use downtown redevelopment project; to acquire, convey and lease property; to establish reserves; and authorizing the City Controller to disburse funds.

This authorizes agreements with RED Development, LLC for the redevelopment of the area bounded by Washington and Jefferson Streets, First Avenue and Second Street in downtown Phoenix.

The proposed 2.5 million-square-foot mixed-use project includes approximately 250,000 square feet of retail and restaurant space, approximately 1,260 residential units, a 150-room boutique hotel, two Class "A" office towers, approximately 3,000 new structured parking spaces and the redevelopment of Patriot's Park.

The agreements shall contain the following provisions and such other terms and conditions deemed necessary and appropriate as further provided in the back-up report.

The Developer must finance and construct: a 2,500-space underground parking structure under Blocks 22 and 23; repairs and upgrade the Patriot's Square Garage; 220,000 gross leasable square feet of retail/restaurant space on Blocks 22, 23 and 77; a high-rise tower on Block 23 including approximately 500 residential units and a 150-room boutique hotel; the redevelopment of Patriot's Square Park subject to a redevelopment plan approved by the Parks and Recreation Board; plaza and open space on Blocks 22 and 23; and appropriate streetscape improvements.

On completion the City will: purchase the Block 22/23 parking structure for approximately $72.5 million; reimburse up to $13,945,000 for improvements to the Patriot's Square Garage; and reimburse up to $2.475 million for streetscape improvements. The City will purchase approximately 500 above-grade parking spaces for $7.5 million if the parking spaces and approximately 30,000 square feet of retail space are constructed in Phase II on Block 23.

City participation is subject to: the completion of the Phase I improvements; a $13 million Letter of Credit to cover any shortfalls in project lease payments and transaction privilege license taxes required to pay City debt service for a period of five years; prepayment of the projected Phase II construction sales taxes.

Funding sources will be available through lease payments from Renaissance Square and project-generated revenues, including the lease of parking structures and building improvements, the General Fund portion of both the project's construction sales taxes and the project-generated sales and lease transaction privilege license taxes. The project is expected to provide sufficient revenue from these sources to pay annual debt service obligations. In the first five years, any shortfall will be covered by the developer's Letter of Credit. After five years, any shortfall would need to be covered by City sources.

RED Development, LLC is eligible to do business with the City of Phoenix until March 17, 2007, by its compliance with the affirmative action requirements of the City Code, Chapter 18, Article IV or V. The firm is responsible for maintaining its eligibility during the life of the agreements.

This item is recommended by Mr. Krietor, the Finance Department and the Downtown Development Office.

BA744PHX · #**193** Posted **Feb 13, 2007, 5:28 PM**

According to Cityscapes website the 150 hotel rooms and 500 residential all will be in the SE tower of the project. What I think is odd they have both residential towers at the same amount of floors with equal amount of units in each, but one will also include the 150 hotel rooms. How are they going to make that all fit in one tower?

nbrindley · #**194** Posted **Feb 13, 2007, 6:13 PM**

The plan also calls for 760 more residential units, presumably split between the other residential tower and the mixed-use tower. Considering that they are building 2,500 below-grade parking spaces, I assume the residential towers will not be sitting on a parking pedestal. That will free up a lot of room for more units compared to 44 Monroe.

CANUC · #**195** Posted **Feb 13, 2007, 7:16 PM**

Interesting, 44 Monroe has 202 units at 34floors. If 8 floors are removed for the parking garage that means that they were able to put 202 units into 26 floors. Now if we go by RED’s description of the first tower it will be 44 floors and assuming that all of the floors will be used for residence’s that means that some how it must contain 500 units plus 150 hotel rooms for a total of 650 units into 44 floors. That just doesn’t seem possible. Going by the 44 Monroe standard the building would require at least 65 floors just for the residential component and possibly another 6 floors for the hotel units. So maybe ground level residential units? Or possibly a much larger foot print for the tower than that of 44 Monroe?

HX_Guy · #**196** Posted **Feb 13, 2007, 7:24 PM**

The residential isn't slated to go in the 44 story building, but in a 37 story one.
It is the tower on the south in this drawing labeled "Hotel".

You have to remember that 44 Monroe is on about .5 acres (a city block is about 2 acres right? 44 Monroe takes up about a 1/4 of the block).

The CityScape residential/hotel tower looks to take up about twice the space that 44 Monroe does. With twice the footprint and underground parking, it's possible I would think.

JI5 · #**197** Posted **Feb 13, 2007, 7:33 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by nbrindley

I want to see Cityscape happen as much as anyone, but really, the public deserves input on this project. If it were solely a private development, then sure, they can build what they want as long as the city approves. But this project is being subsidized with millions of dollars of taxpayer money ($90 million?). In addition to that, the city is giving the developers a city park located in the choicest location downtown with a multi-level parking garage under it. How much is that donation worth? How much would it cost RED to build a comparable garage to the one they are getting for free? The city is giving RED a lot of money to build this project, one that RED has admitted would not be possible without the city's help, so I believe that RED has an obligation to listen to the public input and take it seriously and not brush it off.

If those three blocks are really, as you say, the "choicest location" - why didn't the city receive ANY OTHER BIDS to develop it? $90 million is not alot of money to subsidize because the city will likely see a return on that investment. Truth be told - it would probably be alot more profitable for a developer like RED to build in North Phoenix or Scottsdale vs. downtown.

sundevilgrad · #**198** Posted **Feb 13, 2007, 8:00 PM**

Quote:

If those three blocks are really, as you say, the "choicest location" - why didn't the city receive ANY OTHER BIDS to develop it?

Because all of the developers understand that if they want to build something other than a big-box-strip-mall piece of crap in Phoenix they'll have to put up with negative press, NIMBY's and all kinds of other shi*t. Most of them probably think it's not worth the headache. Not when you can build a piece of crap in Buckeye and turn a profit.

combusean · #**199** Posted **Feb 13, 2007, 8:53 PM**

There were other bidders in the process, RED was the only one that put a proposal together for all three blocks.

Secondly, I wouldn't be surprised at all if RED was cemented in before the bids went out. And JI5, yours is the first post I've ever heard saying $90 million is not a lot of money. The City doesn't have anything approaching that to throw around, that's why it's coming from the expected sales taxes from the project.

Either way, I am skeptical that sales taxes alone will cover it in an appropriate time frame, but if--and that's a big if--this thing is built out to full potential I imagine it will ultimately be worth it.

DevdogAZ · #**200** Posted **Feb 13, 2007, 8:54 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by JI5

If those three blocks are really, as you say, the "choicest location" - why didn't the city receive ANY OTHER BIDS to develop it? $90 million is not alot of money to subsidize because the city will likely see a return on that investment. Truth be told - it would probably be alot more profitable for a developer like RED to build in North Phoenix or Scottsdale vs. downtown.

The reason nobody else submitted a bid to redevelop PSP is because building on that block alone is probably not profitable. The only reason it made sense for RED is because they already had the eastern two blocks and they needed more space for retail and open space in their design, and it fit in with what the city wanted from Block 77. It wouldn't work at all if a developer were simply to go in and repair the PSP garage and build a park/retail above ground.