Official Mountain West NBA Thread 2

[Ronald-Dregan]

I am definitely pulling for OKC to beat the lakers. I wouldn't care if the jazz lost in second round, as long as OKC beats LA that would make my day. OKC in 6 baby!!!!!!!!!!!

[TonyAnderson]

Wouldn't it be crazy if the Jazz, as a 5 seed, had home court in the second round?

[wrendog]

Originally Posted by TonyAnderson

Wouldn't it be crazy if the Jazz, as a 5 seed, had home court in the second round?

You mean like in 2007?

Yes, the Jazz were officially the 4 seed, but in reality, they were the 5 seed as the Rockets had home court.

[SnyderBock]

This seems to support my theory about the refs suddenly calling games differently against the Nuggets favor to a degree which completely ripped away a major part of their game--starting about the time Karl went out. You guys keep taking rips on me, calling me bias and say I'm just seeing what I want to see. I'm not, I'm reporting a completely non-bias observation I have made. And this apparent predigest against the Nuggets, by the refs is the main force giving a shorthand Utah--with less talent and experience--an advantage in this series. It's not something I'm making up. Now ESPN experts Chris Broussard & John Hollinger have written an article supporting exactly what I've been claiming all along; the ref are not calling the games fairly against Denver anymore and haven't for over a month, ever since Karl went out:

Nuggets, Dantley not getting calls
PER Diem: April 28, 2010
By John Hollinger
ESPN.com

As the Denver Nuggets prepare to tip off Game 5 Wednesday in their playoff series against the Utah Jazz, one of the big questions that must be asked regarding the Nuggets is this: What happened to their formerly reliable free throw advantage?

Denver led the league in free throw attempts and the Jazz fouled more than any other team in the NBA this season, so we might have expected a Nuggets parade to the line. Yet through four games it's Utah that enjoys a plus-13 advantage in free throw attempts.

What gives? Well, there appears to be more to the story, one that's been developing since interim coach Adrian Dantley replaced coach George Karl on the sideline. As our Chris Broussard pointed out earlier in the week, the Nuggets are getting fewer foul calls under their interim coach than they did under Karl. Denver went to the line 31.6 times per game under Karl but just 27.2 in the 19 regular-season games the Nuggets played under Dantley. In those games, Denver's plus-315 free throw edge under Karl transformed into a minus-14 deficit under Dantley.

In 61 games with Karl on the sideline this season, Denver averaged .392 free throw attempts per field goal attempt. That figure not only led the league by a wide margin but was also one of the best figures in recent NBA history.

With Dantley, that figure dropped all the way to .323, which was just slightly above the league average and the ninth-best figure in the league. (Note: To compare like pieces of fruit here, all Dantley data is regular season only.)

We're talking about a whopping 17.6 percent difference in free throw attempts per field goal attempt, and we're talking about a large-enough sample size -- 19 games, or nearly one-quarter of a season -- that it can't be dismissed as a short-term fluke.

My search for obvious explanations turned up little. Denver played eight times at home and 11 on the road, but it also played several weak defensive teams under Dantley -- including each of the bottom four in defensive efficiency.

Injuries was my next thought, as it might mean that players less likely to draw fouls were on the floor. But the only regular to miss significant time, forward Kenyon Martin, doesn't draw fouls at a high rate. In fact, he gets to the line dramatically less often than his most frequent replacement, Chris Andersen, and roughly as frequently as the two other players (Joey Graham and Johan Petro) who filled in for him. If anything, Martin's absence should have helped on that front.

One might think that the Nuggets attempted different shots, and that would account for the free throw disparity, but they really didn't. Denver attempted 1.9 percent fewer shots in the basket area under Dantley than under Karl. It's hard to imagine how that explains 17.7 percent fewer free throw attempts per field goal attempt.

Finally, you might think, maybe it's just one of those things -- an unusually huge random variation, but a random one nonetheless. Still, every other metric supports the hypothesis that Dantley is the Rodney Dangerfield of coaches...

CLICK HERE TO READ FULL ARTICLE!

[scottharding]

So the refs don't respect Dantley? Dantley is not as good at intimidating or badgering the refs?

Or have you and these journalists uncovered a conspiracy to eliminate Denver because we all know what a huge national following the utah Jazz have. Such a big-market team would surely mean better ratings for the league should they advance. Yes, it all adds up. The league is trying to create a clear path to the championship for the Jazz.

Or maybe.... maybe.... Denver doesn't respond to Dantely, and therefore they don't play as well. Maybe when Chris Anderson took himself out of game 4 and refused speak to his coaches it was an indication for a team that has fallen apart. You may notice as your digging through stats to uncover the scandals that in addition to shooting less free-throws, Denver is also assisting less on field goals, and rebounding less than they did under Karl.
There's a reason they're known as the "Thuggets." They're very undisciplined. Karl had found a way to ralley them, but now that he's gone, it appears it's not so different as the Iverson days. Remember those first round exits? Looking familiar? That line of thinking makes the most sense to me...
...But maybe I'm part of the conspiracy....

[TonyAnderson]

I think it's called playoff ball. There's a little more contact and physical play that is allowed. Denver needs to toughen up.

[CPVLIVE]

Originally Posted by scottharding

So the refs don't respect Dantley? Dantley is not as good at intimidating or badgering the refs?

Or have you and these journalists uncovered a conspiracy to eliminate Denver because we all know what a huge national following the utah Jazz have. Such a big-market team would surely mean better ratings for the league should they advance. Yes, it all adds up. The league is trying to create a clear path to the championship for the Jazz.

A little defensive are we? I just read the article and nowhere could I find Hollinger suggesting that there was a conspiracy here. He's found a statistical anomaly here and is merely suggesting a reason for it. Denver is shooting 17.7 percent fewer free throw attempts per field goal attempt (with approximately the same number of shots in the basket area) under Dantley versus Karl - that much is one of the few facts we have here. BTW, the statistics cited are from the regular season exclusively and do not include the playoff series with the Jazz. The Nuggets appear to be shooting the same shots as before, but are being fouled less. That's a huge variation that is not easily exlpained. Did the defense the Nuggets faced when Karl left suddenly get better? Did the Nuggets take worse shots? (he mentions that the shots are taken in the 'basket area') Did the Nuggets not 'respond to Dantley, and therefore they don't play as well' as suggested by you? I don't know but it's unlikely that any of those reasons can adequatley explain the 17.7 percent fewer free throw attempts per field goal attempt. Hollinger suggests the explanation is Dantley gets no respect. Well that's probably because the refs don't even know he's there. Dantley sits quietly on the bench as if he's waiting for a bus. During the playoffs you need an effective head coach, one who can advocate for your team, game plan, change line-ups, counter moves by the opposing coach etc, etc. If this wasn't the case then noone would be paying the big bucks to guys like Jackson and we could return to the days of player-coaches. Denver definitely needs to get to the rim and the free throw line to be effective- it's a big part of their game. Anyhow, You just have to hand it to the Jazz as they are clearly the better team right now. I'll conclude with a re-post of mine from March 25:

'I could be wrong but I don't see Denver being much of a factor from here on out. The Kenyon Martin injury hurt, but was manageable. The loss of Karl though, is turning out to be the back-breaker. I never have liked Karl much, but without him Denver is lost. Dantley is really clueless and the team seems to have lost any fire and is just going through the motions. The organization has declared Karl will be back in time for the playoffs, but that's looking like wishful thinking considering Karls recent rush to the emergency room with severe blood clots in his legs and lungs and his apparent inablility to communicate whatsoever. That doesn't sound like a man looking to return to NBA coaching any time soon if at all. Dallas will more than likely crush Denver on Monday. That will be the final game of a five game road trip for Denver that included two back to back games. After playing Orlando on Sunday I doubt Denver will give Dallas much of a game.'


EDIT: I posted this after watching Dantley enter the witness-protection program during the Mar 20th game versus Milwaukee.

[SnyderBock]

I think the refs are just calling the games different now, with Karl not in there running it. I don't think it's a conspiracy. I'm not even sure the refs are aware of it, but it is real and it's having a huge impact on the Nugget's game. They have gone from playing at an elite level, to playing at a .500 level since Karl went out and there has been no greater factor, then not getting the foul calls they have always got called over the last 2+ seasons. So far in tonights game, it has seemed much better game calling by the refs--I hope it stays this way. What is amounts to though, is that Denver was getting the calls that the elite teams get, like the Lakers, Spurs, Cavs and Celtics, then suddenly Karl goes out and they stop getting those calls all the elite teams get, for no apparent reason. It should have never gone down that way and I hope it stops now. The Nuggets were getting to the line at a historic rate, prior to loosing Karl and it might be possible the refs got together and said we need to make it a little harder for them to get to the line. I think that would be the extent of any conspiracy. It still wouldn't make it right, especially headed down the stretch and into the playoffs.

But much of this goes back to the regular season, it's not just playoff basketball. Denver has become frustrated by the ref game calling, they have become too forced on offense and too lax on defense. So TonyAnderson has a point, Denver needs to step it up, like they did last season in the playoffs. If Denver does, Utah is in trouble, because Denver can sweep a playoff series when at their best, they can win 3-4 games in a row and they only need 3 in a row.

[SLC4L]

Haha! And you're complaining about not getting any calls.

[wrendog]

Well nuggies, there's your fouls!

[xseven]

Gotta hand it to Denver. They played the balanced offensive game that stupid melo whined about after losing three straight games.

Utah will wrap this up Friday.

[SnyderBock]

stupid melo whined about? He called his team out and they responded. The refs read ESPN's article and knew they better call this game right. There were a lot of fouls, but not many bad fouls. And I think Darrent Williams is stupid too. Also, loosing Okur helped Utah against Denver. Billups stepped up tonight and played the way everyone had been expecting him to play this whole series. JR Swish is back. Frenchie is Denver best post defender, not Kenyon. And don't call the Law son, cause the Jazz have a warrant and better not show their face in Denver again!

[Ronald-Dregan]

Good game overall
Much credit to the nuggs for playing good decent ball.
I thought nuggs actually played their "bread, and butter", which matches up great against Utah.. IT was a close game because Utah kept turning the ball over and over. Denver capitalized near the end more... The first 38 mins I thought Utah was definitely gonna pull it out, but Denver was actually picking us apart midway through 4th quarter. Damn fine game though, I wouldn't say Denver has gained momentum, but They showed signs of life, so kudos to Denver!!

As far as refs, I do notice the playoffs are officiated differently then regular season. I think it's because I watched this game at a bar (on TV rather than in person) When I'm at the game it's more emotional and hyped up.
Nothing we can do about it, as long as the stay consistent in officiating entire series I'm fine with it.

I am still quite confident jazz will take care of business Friday. gg nuggs!
Someone needs to tell Fesenko to be more alert and stop turning damn ball over . It's gonna be a war Got my ticks. already.

[delts145]

Dammit, I was hoping the Jazz would wrap it up last night. Oh well... Another game, and it's great for downtown business!

[SnyderBock]

May whoever takes this series, also take down the Lakers (assuming OKC doesn't come from behind and do so--which I don't expect to happen with their lack of experience).

The Jazz took one in Denver and all the Nuggets have to do is take one in Utah. That's it, just this one game in Utah is all Denver needs. I want to see a game 7, I don't want this series to end at 6, I love game 7's!

[scottharding]

I wasn't being defensive. I was just saying that the way Snyder was describing the Nuggets problems, it sounded as though he thought the refs were favoring Utah, which is a typical thing to say when you're favorite team is getting it's ass kicked and you don't want to admit that they're just getting beat.
Last night, the Nuggets got back to the way they played most of the season, and they got the calls because when they moved the ball they put the Jazz defense into a scramble. It's the same way the Jazz got calls in the last three games. I don't think the refs have favored Utah on purpose of subconsciencely. I think that when a player (Melo) keeps going one on one, and he's banging and swiping and stiff-arming his defender, and his defender bangs and slaps back, they don't call anything because they'd be calling double fouls all night. When the defense fouls because they got lost following the ball, that's an easier call.
Kudos to the Nuggets. They didn't lay down. I felt the Jazz played a good game for the most part, but Denver just wouldn't allow themselves to be put away.
They can't stop Deron Williams, but then the Jazz can't stop Melo. The team that gets better play from their bench wins this series.

[blm3034L!fe]

Plain and simple the Nuggets are not playing to thier potential, are the calls/no calls questionable? Damn right! But I think if the refs seen better ball playing from the Nuggets like last nights game. Then the calls would be more even. Either way if Denver can get a win game 6 Friday in Utah. Then I honestly believe they will come back to the Mile High and win the series...

Oh and on a side note, I have noticed the past two games the Spazz are putting their acting to good use, like that bullshit D will pulled last night waving his hands around like someone hit him, Aflallo was no where near him D will just lost the ball. But I give him an A for the acting job to get yet another BAD CALL!!! Paaalease. For the simple fact that Utah Sucks I hope the Nuggs win the Next two games and shut all these Spazz fans up! Cause I'm pretty tired of hearing about it to be honest. Nuggs are the better team, better talent and skill it just hasn't reflected in this series, or the past 2 months really, ever since Coach George Karl has been out... I would llike to see how the Utarded Spazz would be performing if Sloan was MIA... If that were the case Denver would have already won this Series by 4 - 0 GURANTEED!!!!!!!

[SnyderBock]

See, this is all fun and games again! Aren't you Jazz fans glad Denver won, so we can keep on having more fun? Lets all wish hard for game 7, nothing will be better! I want GAME 7!

[scottharding]

Yeah, Snyderbock, those last posts were funny. You're right, this is a fun series. I for one, never expected an easy win for the Jazz last night. I'm a die hard Jazz fan, but I know Denver is a wicked good team. I'm just proud to see my team's got the balls and the pride to fight with a team like the Nuggets. And I think Nuggets fans should be proud too. I truly don't think either team is getting more/better calls than another. When Denver is at home, the calls fall a little in Denver's favor. When Utah is at home, we have the favor. That's home-court. But in all five games thus far, both teams have shown they've got talent and guts, and it's made for a great series. The West is so damn stacked, it could be any team on any given night. No team is a sure bet to beat any other.
Although I have to be honest. I don't want a game seven. haha. Of course, I want my Jazz to get it done in SLC.

[wrendog]

Originally Posted by SnyderBock

See, this is all fun and games again! Aren't you Jazz fans glad Denver won, so we can keep on having more fun? Lets all wish hard for game 7, nothing will be better! I want GAME 7!

Game 7's are great as long as my team wins!