Transit Fantasies

[nname]

What about this one?


The yellow and brown line are single-directional loop (one of them goes clockwise and the other goes counterclockwise). All the tracks, beside the Canada Line, are interconnected, and there's also a track between Stanley Park and English Bay to allow the orange line to do the loop as well.

[Canadian Mind]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

I figured it would make sense just so you could fit it in smaller places. All the corners aren't very big and the ramps I've put in so far aren't exactly huge. Its not like traffic probably wouldn't do 70 or 80 but I would bit a lot easier to build something like this if you didn't have to worry so much about speed restricting turning radius and the like.

True enough. However, the straight sections will be an incentive for people to speed, which could cause rear-enders and congestion problems when you have high speed vehicles approaching the rear of those slowing down or already driving slow for the sharp curves/ramps.

Statistics show it's safer to design and use a dedicated ROW at higher speeds vs lower speeds. While the average person might speed 10kph on a ROW designed for 80 or 90kph, the average person will also speed 20 over the speed limit for a dedicated ROW if the speed limit is 50 or 60. Just human nature, and look at the Golden Ears approach as an example if you need. You have people going 100kph over that thing and the speed limit is 60.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by kylemacmac

No offense trofirhen, as you usually have cool ideas, and are bullish on new things, but the Melbourne City Loop is drastically different to the proposed loop in the West End. It's essentially a loop used by all the commuter railways, which are somewhat of a hybrid between Skytrain and the West Coast Express. The Melbourne City loop is directly connected to all the lines, and brings hundreds of thousands of people onto it a day, while the West End Circle line is essentially a disconnected loop, requiring transfers for anyone wanting to get to/from the West End. It's much more like the Detroit People mover, which has been labeled an absolute fail by everyone involved. Not that a people mover would fail in Vancouver, as the West End is much more populated than downtown Detroit, but the disconnected circular path is not the ideal way to attract rapid transit riders.

Please note, I think some form of rapid transit LINE to the West End is completely justified, but one that connects directly to the existing or future Skytrain network would probably be more successful than a standalone line/loop. A high-frequency streetcar/trolleybus loop is slightly different though, as it's essentially an at grade, frequent stop service.

Bring better transit to the West End!

Originally Posted by mrjauk

I've long been a proponent of extending Skytrain into the West End, but I think that a disconnected loop would be a bad idea. I think that we should create a spur from the Canada Line, branching off at Yaletown, and having stops at Burrard/Davie, English Bay, Stanley Park, (maybe one in Coal Harbour near the Community Centre), and a terminus at Waterfront.

Every third train--or some other configuration--could go through the West End to Waterfront, rather than through downtown to Waterfront.

_________________________________________________________________________________
Thanks for the feedback, but I fully realize that the line conceived by Zassk AT PRESENT is disconnected, rather like the Detroit people mover, and probably not practical.

When I mentioned the Melbourne City Loop, I was thinking into the future, when there may be a line coming in from the North Shore, a line going under English Bay to the West Side, and a necessary hook up to the existing Expo and Millenium Lines as well as the Canada Line.

I would NOT recommend Zassk's concept (no offense, Zassk!) AS IT IS RIGHT NOW .... IF it were going to stay that way. BUT . . . thinking ahead, I think that it could be a "gathering loop" for future lines lines to be built.

I am fully aware that Melbourne's City Loop has lines funnelling into it and out of it. It's a considerably bigger city than Vancouver at nearly twice the size.

But I think that if one uses LONG-TERM THINKING, then Zassk's concept makes a whole lot of sense, that's all.

[mrjauk]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

What I was thinking was slightly different (and I hope it is possible).

You extend the Canada Line from Waterfront Station.

You make it do a sharp turn to the West and bring it past the Convention Center extension (I think it was designed so a station there would be possible, expensive but possible). From there you can dig under Coal Harbour and have a station on the other side of the business district, bringing RAV riders to more offices. From there extend it through the West End with 1 or 2 stations, it would function like a cross downtown express more than like a downtown loop service.

After hitting the West End, tunnel under English Bay and bring it up into Kits. You could bring it up under Arbutus and have a station at Kits Beach, 4th, and then have a transfer station at Arbutus and Broadway where it will meet the UBC Extension.

You can't tell me that direct, rapid service between Kits, West End, Business District and Yaletown wouldn't be huge. Trains can travel through downtown without having to branch or spur, so all trains go everywhere. And you also offer a faster reverse service for people traveling between Downtown/the West End and UBC.

I like your idea better, with one addition; a stop at Granville Island would be great.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by nname

What about this one?


The yellow and brown line are single-directional loop (one of them goes clockwise and the other goes counterclockwise). All the tracks, beside the Canada Line, are interconnected, and there's also a track between Stanley Park and English Bay to allow the orange line to do the loop as well.

This is another good one, in my view. I mentioned that in the future there might be other rail lines feeding into his West End Loop (which overlaps downtown).

This is rather the idea that I had in mind, in fact. The difference is that
Zassk's idea is in the NEAR-IMMEDIATE, whereas this one is projecting 20 years or so down the road.

They're both good, and address what I meant in the first place. I hope that I have explained myself better. (I wish that I could come up with designs like these)!!

[jlousa]

As someone that lives in the core, I do not see a need for a west end loop, a street car down Davie and Cordova sure but that would be about it. A large portion of people living in the west end don't leave the area. It's not unusual to meet people that haven't left the core for years, and if you ask them why they stare at you with a dumbfounded look and ask why would they.
To be honest it's not much of a walk anyways.
I'd much rather see our limited transit dollars go to building the ubc line, the evergreen line, an interurban line out to Langley maybe even chilliwack, none of those line would be useful to me they would serve a real need for more people.

[geoff's two cents]

Originally Posted by jlousa

As someone that lives in the core, I do not see a need for a west end loop, a street car down Davie and Cordova sure but that would be about it. A large portion of people living in the west end don't leave the area. It's not unusual to meet people that haven't left the core for years, and if you ask them why they stare at you with a dumbfounded look and ask why would they.
To be honest it's not much of a walk anyways.
I'd much rather see our limited transit dollars go to building the ubc line, the evergreen line, an interurban line out to Langley maybe even chilliwack, none of those line would be useful to me they would serve a real need for more people.

As someone who actually lives in the West End (near Davie and Nicola), I concur. If I need to go downtown, I walk - unless the weather is awful or I'm running late, in which case I wait 3 or 4 minutes for the next trolley or community shuttle (In my experience the frequencies are about equal with that of a Canada Line Richmond station, sometimes better).

Now, were some sort of West End line tied directly to an Arbutus line where I'd be able to transfer to UBC, you might have me (and many others I know who live in the WE), but I'll be the first to admit that we get along fine without it. None of us drive or want to - transit's that good here. Those people in Surrey and Coquitlam need the investment much more than we do.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by jlousa

As someone that lives in the core, I do not see a need for a west end loop, a street car down Davie and Cordova sure but that would be about it. A large portion of people living in the west end don't leave the area. It's not unusual to meet people that haven't left the core for years, and if you ask them why they stare at you with a dumbfounded look and ask why would they.
To be honest it's not much of a walk anyways.
I'd much rather see our limited transit dollars go to building the ubc line, the evergreen line, an interurban line out to Langley maybe even chilliwack, none of those line would be useful to me they would serve a real need for more people.

I don't live downtown but I do agree that lack of money they have should be spent on the ubc line, evergreen and improving transit south of the fraser. Over running trains all over the westend and downtown.

[Millennium2002]

I'm going to wake up and possibly surprise this old thread with something new... and huge.

**MAP HAS BEEN UPDATED.**
(transit lines are own work; relied on Open Street Maps for positioning)

- Allan Kuan

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

I'm going to wake up and possibly surprise this old thread with something new... and huge.

Rapid Transit in Vancouver
(transit lines are own work; relied on Open Street Maps for positioning)

- Allan Kuan

Terrific work, Allan. My only reservation would be that I would prefer to see a rail connection from Waterfront to Lonsdale Quay, instead of Seabus. // In fact, given the markings used, I was not sure if this was a rail connection or ferry connection, but I assume it's Seabus.

Fantastic comprehensive body of work. Like the way you resourcefully used the Pacific Central (VIA Rail) Station for the Valley train, instead of squeezing everything into Waterfront Station.

[Millennium2002]

oops... i see that i used the wrong line for the SeaBus! =O

The only issue with doing that so soon of course would be... where would we put the newest SeaBus then? =S

(EDIT: I'll update the map later... there's been several changes again.)

[Metro-One]

Good work! I am happy to see you made the Poco skytrain spur go all the way to Maple Ridge.

[deasine]

Cool GMAP. Didn't know that ever existed. I have to use that for my next map! My only comments are that:

• Not understanding some of the SkyTrain Station renames: Some of them have "at," some omit the street, and that the YVR-Domestic also serves International flights.
• For the "Outer Circle Line," it's going to be a challenge to get the ROW and room for the line, especially between Victoria and Boundary, unless it's going underground, which is also going to be expensive. Making any rapid transit link go down Willingdon is probably going to be expensive due to the steep slope. It either needs high pillars if elevated, deep underground if buried, or a mixture of both.
• For the "Northern Line," it would probably be a transit operations nightmare. It's unnecessarily complicated.
• I question the need of extending the Millennium Line towards Queensborough, even the Evergreen Line to Maple Ridge, but then again, this is a fantasy.
• Love the SeaBus Plan... kind of reminds me of mini Sydney.

[Millennium2002]

* Not understanding some of the SkyTrain Station renames: Some of them have "at," some omit the street, and that the YVR-Domestic also serves International flights.

Well... I didn't want names to be too long... station names normally referred to just one local street unless multiple stations hit the same street, in which case the crossing street is also referenced. In a few cases street names were omitted entirely if there was a "strong" neighbourhood name that would fit the station and its locale.

* For the "Outer Circle Line," it's going to be a challenge to get the ROW and room for the line, especially between Victoria and Boundary, unless it's going underground, which is also going to be expensive. Making any rapid transit link go down Willingdon is probably going to be expensive due to the steep slope. It either needs high pillars if elevated, deep underground if buried, or a mixture of both.

I'm thinking underground subway... as I agree that there's no room for building elevated guideways. As for the slope on Willingdon, I'm thinking of the idea that Metrotown and Grange should be deep-level stations.

* For the "Northern Line," it would probably be a transit operations nightmare. It's unnecessarily complicated.

It is complicated. I was toying around with its routing quite a bit. I decided on the three-branch routing because I didn't want to leave several places out of the picture, especially Coq Rec Centre, Fleetwood, and Scottsdale. The U-turn to Production Way might be unnecessary, though.

* I question the need of extending the Millennium Line towards Queensborough, even the Evergreen Line to Maple Ridge, but then again, this is a fantasy.

Queensborough might be getting a huge expansion over the next several years, which explains why I sent the Skytrain down there. It also allows for a redesign of Columbia as it is currently not an effective transfer station.

EDIT:
**MAP HAS BEEN UPDATED.**

[Whalleyboy]

So i've been working with ideas for quite some time for a route that would work for south of the fraser. But I decide to try and make a really good route that could be in areas that really could use it and still get out to langley.
this is the best i could come up with
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UT...,0.220757&z=12

been meaning to post this for a while seeing this one up again reminded me lol

[Millennium2002]

Your routing does make me think that I missed an area that could grow. =S
On the other hand I wonder if Surrey will redevelop its old city hall complex once it moves to Downtown Surrey.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

Well... I didn't want names to be too long... station names normally referred to just one local street unless multiple stations hit the same street, in which case the crossing street is also referenced. In a few cases street names were omitted entirely if there was a "strong" neighbourhood name that would fit the station and its locale.

I guess this is a matter of preference, but I personally don't have any problems with any of the station names, other than Vancouver City Centre, which is quite a mouthful. I mean, VCC-Clark is fine as it is right now. But this is no biggie.

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

I'm thinking underground subway... as I agree that there's no room for building elevated guideways. As for the slope on Willingdon, I'm thinking of the idea that Metrotown and Grange should be deep-level stations.

...

Queensborough might be getting a huge expansion over the next several years, which explains why I sent the Skytrain down there. It also allows for a redesign of Columbia as it is currently not an effective transfer station.

Building deep deep underground stations are costly, and there are issues of safety as well. And the ones you've listed will be quite deep: elevator access only. Mind you, it is a fantasy. There are no limits.

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

It is complicated. I was toying around with its routing quite a bit. I decided on the three-branch routing because I didn't want to leave several places out of the picture, especially Coq Rec Centre, Fleetwood, and Scottsdale. The U-turn to Production Way might be unnecessary, though.

You could always break up some of the routes. I mean, there's no reason why a person from Surrey would need a slower route to downtown. A transfer or two certainly won't hurt.

I do really like the coverage on the Northshore and most of the streetcar routes, though I would combine South False Creek with Davie/Pacific: it would be amazing to be able to take a streetcar from Stanley Park down to Yaletown, then down to Granville Island and Vanier Park/Kitsilano all in one line.

[Whalleyboy]

deleted

[Millennium2002]

Originally Posted by deasine

Mind you, it is a fantasy. There are no limits.

As much as that may be true, I still try to keep things as realistic as possible with the information provided. =S

[Metro-One]

I like your extension to Maple Ridge (hence why they are possibly adding the capabilities of a spur to PoCo on the Evergreen Line line). Maple Ridge has nearly tripled in size in the last 25 years and it is slated to become another substantial regional center.

I honestly think keeping the window open for an eventual Evergreen Line extension out to Haney Place is a good idea, come 20 or 30 years from now. I know Maple Ridge and Pitt Meadows have already made preliminary plans such as zoning areas for potential future skytrain rail alignments.

Again, this is a few decades away, but never say never! And it would be cheep, because I don't think anyone here would be upset with an elevated guideway. As long as the low lands stay in the ALR the uplands of Pitt Meadows and Maple Ridge are areas that should be built upon.

I like this fantasy map!