Calgary Stoney Trail [Ring Road]

[Yahoo]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

It's one of the more complicated and expensive interchanges, due to the interaction with the close-by Tuscany/Scenic Acres interchange as well as the Rail Bridge and Bow River Bridge. I imagine that all factored into its timing.

A while back I asked the gov about it and they said it was because of the expense of building another bridge over the Bow River. They didn't want to spend the money at the time - even though they were getting huge surpluses. Money is always a consideration, but given the massive plans and budget they made it seems silly for them to use that as the reason.

Even when they decided to make Stoney free flowing they marked the Nose Hill interchange as the lowest priority - which really baffles me. It's likely the steepest hill on the entire road, it's right off the TransCanada where truckers decide to use Stoney as a bypass (a trucker was the first to die there I believe), and it's only 2 lanes up a steep hill.

Eventually due to pressure to get it done they decided they could get away with just building a bridge over the train tracks and still have room for vehicles to move onto the existing river bridge. That redesign I imagine is the complication you mention that delayed things. If they'd have stuck to the plan it would be done by now.

So really, it was just about money & not doing it right the first time. Then a couple of Scenic Acres residents complained about the design and set it back again. And now the contract has been awarded. My brother in the industry told me that the group building it is one of the slowest builders in the industry - and I can sure see that.

Anyway, this sure highlights how much better the P3 system is for building. I was skeptical about the concept but you can't argue with the results in the North section. Projects finish in record time. I've noticed in BC they sometimes speed things up even faster by using a design-build concept where it's designed as it's built. Another thing is they sometimes do is open it up for the contractors to propose designs themselves - which can sometimes be very innovative. Not always possible in a city with people wanting to give input, but it works well on the transCanada highway upgrades for example.

The first NW section of Stoney has been a construction zone almost from the day it opened. I like watching construction proceed, but not at a snails pace. And once they finish the Nose Hill work they'll probably start on the Bow River bridge and fancy new interchange additions on 16th to tie it into the West leg of Stoney. And when that's done it'll be time to start on the final build of Stoney Trail, since if I'm not mistaken the "ultimate" stage is in 2035 - but my guess is it won't happen until 2070 unless we have "can do" politicians in office.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Yahoo

Really, I walked my dog along the Tuscany Hill and didn't see anything. There is a pile of dirt, but that has been there for months. From what I can tell they were supposed to start prelim work on the interchange in December.

I hope they stay on schedule. It's a real shame they didn't build an interchange from the get go. There have been at least 2 deaths at the dangerous set of lights. It's like the province is punishing Calgary for pushing ahead with construction of Stoney. I can see no other explanation why the interchange at the base of a hill on the busiest section of Stoney is the last to get an interchange. (Other than money, but the province was swimming in it at the time - Ralph didn't even know what to do with it except pass out $400)

Ah that section of Stoney broke ground in 1995 and opened in 1997, back when the Province was in early recovery from deficits. Yes the interchange could have been built after that, but the focus was on building the Ring Road at all plus I believe there were some engineering and land acquisition challenges with the railway.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Yahoo

And once they finish the Nose Hill work they'll probably start on the Bow River bridge and fancy new interchange additions on 16th to tie it into the West leg of Stoney.

The new Bow River bridge will definitely be tied to the next portion of Stoney Trail (16th Avenue down to Highway 8). That section will be waiting on the results of what happens with twinning Highway 8, which some of the details of THAT are waiting on the final decision for the dreaded Weaselhead portion of Stoney.

[Seadood]

Drove AHD in Edmonton just after Christmas. It is now completed to the Manning FRWY in the far northeast. Wish ours was as far advanced.

[para transit fellow]

has anyone seen any traffic counts for the NE Stoney trail?

[5seconds]

Originally Posted by para transit fellow

has anyone seen any traffic counts for the NE Stoney trail?

Calgary has historical traffic flow maps up to 2009, here:

http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation...flow-maps.aspx

And I have the 2010 map. It shows traffic on the NERR ranging from 16,000 - 18,000 average cars per day. Not sure if there is anything more current available.

[para transit fellow]

Originally Posted by 5seconds

Calgary has historical traffic flow maps up to 2009, here:

http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation...flow-maps.aspx

And I have the 2010 map. It shows traffic on the NERR ranging from 16,000 - 18,000 average cars per day. Not sure if there is anything more current available.

AWESOME!

I found a comment that the deal was to be for $300 million up front and $21 million per year for 30 years.. a little number crunching and it turns out we pay about $4.75 per vehicle driving on NEST ( I used 6.5 million vehicles per year- your numbers may vary)

it's a crude figure but it is one of the few roads that has clearly deliniated costs /expenses. Now I can go back to a "transit subsidy vs roads subsidy" debate in another forum.

Thanks folks!

[fusili]

Originally Posted by para transit fellow

AWESOME!

I found a comment that the deal was to be for $300 million up front and $21 million per year for 30 years.. a little number crunching and it turns out we pay about $4.75 per vehicle driving on NEST ( I used 6.5 million vehicles per year- your numbers may vary)

it's a crude figure but it is one of the few roads that has clearly deliniated costs /expenses. Now I can go back to a "transit subsidy vs roads subsidy" debate in another forum.

Thanks folks!

That is a ridiculous subsidy. However, I would imagine the volumes would increase over time.

[MalcolmTucker]

To see what the subsidy is, you would need the average fuel economy of vehicles on the stretch.

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by para transit fellow

AWESOME!

I found a comment that the deal was to be for $300 million up front and $21 million per year for 30 years.. a little number crunching and it turns out we pay about $4.75 per vehicle driving on NEST ( I used 6.5 million vehicles per year- your numbers may vary)

it's a crude figure but it is one of the few roads that has clearly deliniated costs /expenses. Now I can go back to a "transit subsidy vs roads subsidy" debate in another forum.

Thanks folks!

...except that the road will last much more than 30 years, and the traffic for most of the 30 years will be much more than 18,000 vpd. The opening of the SE portion will probably nearly double the traffic on the NE section, never mind growth, which over 30 years will be substantial.

Also, many drivers don't drive the whole length of the NE RR, and your number assumes that every driver does. I would guess that the number of individual cars on Stoney Trail every day right now is around double that 18k number (meaning that the average driver drives about half of the road).

So if we guess that today there are 36,000 vpd, which will expand to 70,000 next year or shortly thereafter, the cost per vehicle is only slightly over a dollar, and that's still excluding traffic growth over 30 years, and ignoring the rest of the life span of the road, after the 30 year period.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

To see what the subsidy is, you would need the average fuel economy of vehicles on the stretch.

Assume 11.9km/L, which, I believe is the average Albertan vehicle fuel economy (IIRC).

[para transit fellow]

um... I did say it was a crude measure of the subsidization of roads... I'm looking for a rule of thumb.

One of the problems is finding ANY information on the costs of maintaining a road. The P3 model fortunately has an annual fee component ( operations plus interest plus ROI). Maybe it's high but it is a starting point.

(note: according to one document i saw, the $21 million per year will be adjusted for inflation-- there is additional money to be paid on this deal).

so maybe we are ridiculously high. if we cut the $4.75 in half, we still have have about $2.36 per vehicle using a fairly short stretch of alberta highway. I still find it eye-opening.

[para transit fellow]

Originally Posted by fusili

Assume 11.9km/L, which, I believe is the average Albertan vehicle fuel economy (IIRC).

North East Stoney Trail is about 21 km so lets call it 2 litres.
Alberta fuel tax is about $0.25/l (and some of that goes to non-road infrastructure like transit, waterworks, etc))

http://www.albertagasprices.com/can_tax_info.aspx


(sidenote: I'm starting to wonder if we are saving any money on this P3 partnership thing)

[MalcolmTucker]

The road sjould have cost approximately the same if it was delivered in a different way but financed over the same term publically. I doubt politically the road could have been built that way though given how debt politics works in the province.

The cost per km is a neat figure, but it is important to remember a huge amount of the cost for the NE ring road was the completion of the Deerfoot interchange. The infrastructure there I believe won't need to be upgraded even as Stoney is upgraded to more lanes.

[para transit fellow]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

The road sjould have cost approximately the same if it was delivered in a different way but financed over the same term publically. I doubt politically the road could have been built that way though given how debt politics works in the province.

The cost per km is a neat figure, but it is important to remember a huge amount of the cost for the NE ring road was the completion of the Deerfoot interchange. The infrastructure there I believe won't need to be upgraded even as Stoney is upgraded to more lanes.

http://alberta.ca/acn/200911/27237B5...D02EEBBAA.html

Let's look at the full length (to date). 44 km of road will cost over a billion dollars over 30 years. Note: I don't have any maintenance info for the NW portion except that Carmacs has a contract until 2039 to maintain it.

I'm sure I have made some poor assumptions but I'm seeing $750,000 /km per year? Is there anyone in the industry that has some better accuracy for us?

[kw5150]

deleted

[lubicon]

The Nose Hill interchange is officially under construction (by my definition). They have been driving piles for the new bridge over the CPR tracks. There are signs up for 'lane closures' this Sunday morning. And most importantly they have put up the construction zone and 'fines double in construction zones' signs up so CPS can now shift their speed traps to this area and continue on collecting $$$ for the next few years. Naturally the construction zone runs from the Tuscany exit all the way to the south end of the bridge over the Bow making it several km longer than necessary.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by lubicon

Naturally the construction zone runs from the Tuscany exit all the way to the south end of the bridge over the Bow making it several km longer than necessary.

Actually that sounds just about right. There will be some kind of work along that entire stretch, even if it won't be right away. Setting up the signs at the entire limit of construction for the whole project makes sense than constantly having the move the signs.

[sonysnob]

Without having to go through the whole 186 page thread, does anybody have any good construction photos of the highway? Particularly of some of the larger interchanges that have been constructed? Like at the north end of the Deerfoot, or at the Eastern leg of the Trans-Canada Highway?

Thanks.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

Without having to go through the whole 186 page thread, does anybody have any good construction photos of the highway? Particularly of some of the larger interchanges that have been constructed? Like at the north end of the Deerfoot, or at the Eastern leg of the Trans-Canada Highway?

Thanks.

Any specific times you're looking for? Early construction? Right before opening? I have some shots I can share.