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  #21  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2013, 3:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Looking at this from another angle (possibly from the dark side of the yang)...

I do think that most of the Montreal lovers in the ROC are sincere, but I have often wondered if some of the love from certain people isn't more because they don't want to appear anti-French or anti-la différence. People don't want to be judged as unsophisticated yokels who can't appreciate a really different city, and because of this, love for Montreal becomes de rigueur and the generalized view.

Sort of like Americans who say Michelle Obama is beautiful or gorgeous because they don't want to appear racist.
Speaking as a Torontonian, I feel a kind of kinship with Montreal. We share so much: Love of hockey, sporting rivalries, at some point having been the country's biggest city and financial capital, old-school central Canadian "Laurentian Consensus" politics, music scenes (Metric, Stars, etc.), pre-war architecture, hip neighbourhoods, great restaurants... Montreal's also only a few hours drive from Toronto, and everyone in Toronto has friends in Montreal and vice-versa. So Montreal's never felt like another city somewhere else but more like your best friend's house down the street (the street in this case being the 401). So it's in my interest to see Montreal in the best light because it's something that I get to partake in, and not just watch from a distance.
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  #22  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2013, 4:00 PM
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It's very pretty! and architecturally interesting! .. could be a bit more colourful but I really like it! Also it has a sense of identity .. no only having having a bunch of immigrant cultures (which is good but not when you don't have your own identifiable culture).. but they have their OWN as well (unlike another very big city in this country)
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  #23  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2013, 4:01 PM
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It's got a certain je ne sais quoi about it. I do prefer it in many, many ways over Toronto.
I completely agree
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  #24  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2013, 4:10 PM
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I had my first non-work-related visit to Montreal last summer, a solid week, and I had an incredibly nice time. In particular, the locals willingness to help and encourage me with French (which I never formally studied, having been raised in the US where it's not obligatory) was really, really endearing.

All that said, Montreal is a lot like Toronto. Weather, built form, density. Toronto is indescribably more diverse with a better subway. Montreal has nicer topography but the idea that it and Toronto are on different planets could not be further from the truth. They're more alike than any two Canadian cities unless you compare Calgary and Edmonton.
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  #25  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2013, 4:13 PM
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Originally Posted by jeddy1989 View Post
It's very pretty! and architecturally interesting! .. could be a bit more colourful but I really like it! Also it has a sense of identity .. no only having having a bunch of immigrant cultures (which is good but not when you don't have your own identifiable culture).. but they have their OWN as well (unlike another very big city in this country)
Canadians not from Ontario have this weird idea, and I suppose it stems from their own experience, that the various immigrant cultures in Toronto don't speak to each other. That may be the case in St. John's or Vancouver etc but in southern Ontario and especially Toronto, they do talk to each other, they integrate and they share. I never realized how rare this was in Canada but everything tells me that it must be, because the general consensus across this land is that by having this hodgepodge it automatically leads to cultural cliques that rarely interact, which simply isn't the case in Toronto.


And for the record Toronto does have its own culture, the culture you probably know as "Canadian" culture originates precisely from this region. We just haven't fetishized it, the way many regions in this country do to their own in situ cultures.
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  #26  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2013, 4:18 PM
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Montreal seems extremely comfortable in its own skin in a way that almost no other Canadian place is. Montreal doesn't seem to crave external validation the same way that certain other Canadian metropolises do. Montreal is Mordecai Richler, who thought what he thought and didn't give a shit what anyone said about it. It's an admirable trait.

I think Montreal is fantastic.
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  #27  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2013, 4:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Martin Mtl View Post
Can't you read a map of your own country ?
A map doesn't tell me much more than where it is.

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Originally Posted by Martin Mtl View Post
The way you put it, you seem genuinely proud of your own ignorance.
Whatever.

I least some people have made some useful posts.
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  #28  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2013, 4:21 PM
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Originally Posted by RWin View Post
A map doesn't tell me much more than where it is.
That would be a start, compare to: «(...) some city out east somewhere.»
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  #29  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2013, 4:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Gerrard View Post
Canadians not from Ontario have this weird idea, and I suppose it stems from their own experience, that the various immigrant cultures in Toronto don't speak to each other. That may be the case in St. John's or Vancouver etc but in southern Ontario and especially Toronto, they do talk to each other, they integrate and they share. I never realized how rare this was in Canada but everything tells me that it must be, because the general consensus across this land is that by having this hodgepodge it automatically leads to cultural cliques that rarely interact, which simply isn't the case in Toronto.
I TOTALLY don't mean to be argumentative, but I've been researching immigration across Canada lately (I'm a journalist), and most of what I've found from immigrant settlement agencies in Toronto and across the country, and from Statistics Canada, has been the opposite: Toronto's immigrants are becoming increasingly ghettoized in ethnic neighbourhoods, while immigrants to smaller cities more quickly adapt to the local culture, and to other immigrant communities. I didn't expect to find that at all.

Also, immigration to the GTA has also dropped by about one-third in the past ten years—partially because other provinces are aggressively pursuing immigranta, and partly because immigrant integration and employment outcomes in the GTA have been worsening. Immigration to the ROC, meanwhile, has gone up, in many cities WAY up. (Calgary, Saskatoon, and Charlottetown stand out as places of huge growth, percentage-wise.) The next few years are going to be really interesting, as ethnic diversity flattens out across the country (if current trends continue, Calgary could be more ethnically diverse than Toronto in a generation).
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  #30  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2013, 4:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Martin Mtl View Post
I've never been to Vancouver, or Calgary, or Edmonton, or Winnipeg. Yet I know a lot about all those cities, because I'm interested in urbanity and geography and history.
And its a discussion forum. If you haven't been to these places, you must have learned about them from some other means than personal experience.

So if asking questions about a place I'm interested in isn't a valid way to learn about it, then I guess I'll have to rely on the map until I can get out there myself.
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  #31  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2013, 4:26 PM
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Other people beat me to it, but ya its that "je ne sais quoi" factor.

When you are there you just can't put your finger on why you fall in love with Montreal but,you just do..I for one can't define it..It's the whole urban experience of that city that sucks you in.
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  #32  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2013, 4:32 PM
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Looking at a map is great. But I've found it really doesn't give you a feel for actually being there.

After a week in my new neighbourhood when I moved to Calgary, the place had a different look and feel than any map or any other research could have given me.

So, I'm not proud of my ignorance. Its just a result of not having traveled everywhere in the world that I'd like to have. I really can't do that at this point in my life. So a forum such as this is usually a decent place to hang out.

I didn't come here to say Montreal sucks. I just want to know what everyone likes about it.
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  #33  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2013, 4:38 PM
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What I like about Montreal is that the city has this sort of weight to it. It feels very lived-in. It's not like many other cities in this country in the sense that Montreal seems to have this much stronger sense of identity. Probably the only other place in Canada where I've gotten this sense of establishment is in the Maritimes.
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  #34  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2013, 4:50 PM
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as a montrealer, i feel a kinship with toronto. it's montreal through a certain kind of looking glass.

as for montreal's appeal as a whole, it's just a city person's city.
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  #35  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2013, 4:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Gerrard View Post
And for the record Toronto does have its own culture, the culture you probably know as "Canadian" culture originates precisely from this region. We just haven't fetishized it, the way many regions in this country do to their own in situ cultures.




you always provide a good voice of reason, but you're also kind of a toronto homer gerrard. admit it. embrace it.
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  #36  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2013, 4:52 PM
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Sorry, I didn't chase that comparison to its logical conclusion. I think I can say that the Canadian military won't lay siege to Montreal if Quebec declares independence. And, if it does, I'm coming to fight on your side. Promise.

EDIT: Unless you go for Labrador.
i know you know the balkans, and i know the balkans too, to a degree, living in pristina. the parallel ain't exact.... but it's there.
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  #37  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2013, 4:55 PM
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I like Montreal because everybody is rude, smokes too much and drives agressively. My kind of place

Actually haven't been since my grand folks passed about 15 years ago. Should make a point to get back.
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  #38  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2013, 5:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerrard View Post
And for the record Toronto does have its own culture, the culture you probably know as "Canadian" culture originates precisely from this region. We just haven't fetishized it, the way many regions in this country do to their own in situ cultures.
I used to think this about the two main cultural outliers in Canada: Quebec and Newfoundland. That it was all a bit of a fetishized show. And then I moved to Quebec, and I have also researched Newfoundland culture as well a bit more of the years.

There is nothing "fetishist" about these places' culture. People don't fetishize it - they live it. It's in their bones.

They don't read what they read, listen to what they listen to, eat what they eat, talk the way they talk, sing what they sing, dress the way they dress, think the way think... simply to prove a point. To emphasize some kind of Freudian narcissism of small differences.

It's just the way they are.

If sometimes they do get a bit reactionary about it, it's usually precisely in reaction to attacks:

"Newfoundland culture is all about laziness and seems about being uneducated and uncouth".

"What's with this French bullshit in Quebec? This is Canada. Go back to France buddy!"

Compared to other parts of Canada (and the GTA and southern Ontario), there is much less of an insecure "culture cringe" in Quebec and Newfoundland, by which people have an inner suspicion that anything local is going to be less worthy than something produced Stateside or in the UK (usually Stateside let's be honest). It was odd how for example in so many circles it was seen as tacky to watch Canadian movies or TV shows, except for the news and Hockey Night in Canada.
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  #39  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2013, 5:03 PM
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Originally Posted by kool maudit View Post
you always provide a good voice of reason, but you're also kind of a toronto homer gerrard. admit it. embrace it.
Oh jeez I'm a total homer but I have little affection for Canada beyond my immediate borders. Having lived outside the country for years I suppose I just got used to Americans (and married one). They don't do this broken record thing. They have always been a welcome respite from the stifling provincialism of most Canadians.
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  #40  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2013, 5:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I used to think this about the two main cultural outliers in Canada: Quebec and Newfoundland. That it was all a bit of a fetishized show. And then I moved to Quebec, and I have also researched Newfoundland culture as well a bit more of the years.

There is nothing "fetishist" about these places' culture. People don't fetishize it - they live it. It's in their bones.

They don't read what they read, listen to what they listen to, eat what they eat, talk the way they talk, sing what they sing, dress the way they dress, think the way think... simply to prove a point. To emphasize some kind of Freudian narcissism of small differences.

It's just the way they are.

If sometimes they do get a bit reactionary about it, it's usually precisely in reaction to attacks:

"Newfoundland culture is all about laziness and seems about being uneducated and uncouth".

"What's with this French bullshit in Quebec? This is Canada. Go back to France buddy!"
Great post - but harsh examples.

Seriously, though... I do believe the generic Canadian identity as its promoted is basically the culture of southern Ontario, including Toronto. Which means I have to acknowledge it has a culture. No problem. Done.

But that I cannot relate to at all is the lack of confidence in it. Southern Ontario seems to be perpetually unsure of itself - always intellectually debating what separates it from the United States, searching for differences.

You don't see that in Quebec or Newfoundland. We're comfortable in our own skin and confident in our culture. It's already established.

We're not - as I interpret what's going on in southern Ontario - looking around at each other and having a conversation about, "Well... this is our culture too, right?" "Yeah, the Americans don't do it." "OK, so we're all agreed?"
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