Surrey Langley Skytrain - Expo Line Extension | Proposed

[The_Animal]

Originally Posted by logan5

Mississauga is similar to Surrey so let's say your numbers are right. Widening the 3 major routes in Surrey - that's about 40 km's x 2.23 = 90 million. Add 10 million for bus stops and we're at an even 100 million. The vehicles and operators, etc. are already in place.

Travel times along the busway would be very close to LRT travel times, as long as station spacing is the same. There would be capacity to last decades. Look at what the B Line on Broadway is coping with. And that's in mixed traffic. A busway would have much more capacity. It's not a band aid solution, it's common sense.

That's just on ONE route leading out of Langley - the 502. SO there would be considerably more than just 7500 people boarding during rush-hour commute in the morning and in the afternoon. There are three other routes currently terminating in Surrey Central which would end up terminating at the terminus bus-station at Langley Central...which would leave every 10 minutes. For a forty seven minute trip, there would 1 bus leaving every ten minutes so in the course of one trip made by one bus three more would follow at exactly 10 minutes. At peak periods, each westbound or eastbound trip would have to be increased to 6 minute intervals. Remember rush hour is during a 3.5 hr period between start of service and 8:30AM and 3:30-7:00 in the afternoon/evening. This is just the logistics on the Fraser Highway leg.

Then you're looking at people coming in from points east on 104th Avenue and points south along King George. Do you HONESTLY think that there is enough capacity as is with just 30 articulated buses along ALL three corridors?

[The_Animal]

Originally Posted by Jebby

Something like this would more than serve Surrey's needs for the next 25 years.


http://nacto.org/wp-content/themes/t...-bus-lanes.png

I'm sorry, do you live in Surrey? Have you seen the packed buses going down the street during rush-hour? No, I don't think you have. I see it every day at rush-hour, because I actually LIVE in Surrey. And incidentally, What has Mexico been doing about its transit situation?

[logan5]

Originally Posted by The_Animal

That's just on ONE route leading out of Langley - the 502. SO there would be considerably more than just 7500 people boarding during rush-hour commute in the morning and in the afternoon. There are three other routes currently terminating in Surrey Central which would end up terminating at the terminus bus-station at Langley Central...which would leave every 10 minutes. For a forty seven minute trip, there would 1 bus leaving every ten minutes so in the course of one trip made by one bus three more would follow at exactly 10 minutes. At peak periods, each westbound or eastbound trip would have to be increased to 6 minute intervals. Remember rush hour is during a 3.5 hr period between start of service and 8:30AM and 3:30-7:00 in the afternoon/evening. This is just the logistics on the Fraser Highway leg.

Then you're looking at people coming in from points east on 104th Avenue and points south along King George. Do you HONESTLY think that there is enough capacity as is with just 30 articulated buses along ALL three corridors?

The travel times on a dedicated busway would decrease dramatically so you would get more round trips from the same number of buses. The Evergreen Line and the Broadway Line especially would free up a lot of buses. Coincide the opening of the Surrey busway with the opening of the Broadway Line so that all those B LIne buses transfer seamlessly over to Surrey.

There is no corridor in Surrey that comes even close the the population density or employment density that the Broadway Corridor has. There is absolutely no need for rail transit in Surrey.

[logan5]

I haven't ridden a bus in Surrey for a while myself, but I don't recall seeing to many extra capacity articulated buses. How many routes actually use them?

[The_Animal]

Originally Posted by logan5

The travel times on a dedicated busway would decrease dramatically so you would get more round trips from the same number of buses. The Evergreen Line and the Broadway Line especially would free up a lot of buses. Coincide the opening of the Surrey busway with the opening of the Broadway Line so that all those B LIne buses transfer seamlessly over to Surrey.

There is no corridor in Surrey that comes even close the the population density or employment density that the Broadway Corridor has. There is absolutely no need for rail transit in Surrey.

Really now ~skeptical~

In the 2013 Performance review, South of Fraser had the highest number of increase in percentage of boardings in the entire Metro Vancouver area. What does that tell you? People are moving out of Vancouver metro because they can't afford to live there. Guaranteed there will be an increase in capacity that if the situation stays the same status quo, the current bus situation will not be able to meet growth.

South of Fraser experienced the highest growth in annual passenger boardings (4.3 million or 15%) and received a significant amount of new service (11% growth in annual revenue hours). Cost per boarded passenger decreased by 1.7%

Ladner / S. Delta / Tsawwassen bus revenue hours remained the same and ridership increased by 20.6%. This growth is concentrated in commuter-oriented services, which connect to the Canada Line and had
unused capacity, resulting in a 10.8% reduction in cost per boarded passenger. TransLink will continue monitoring to ensure that overcrowding is not a concern in the area

But then again, you can sit happy and pleasant in Mount Pleasant which by the way has 3-4 minute interval buses...by the way, how's the weather in the Cambie Street area? Been quite a while since I lived in Kits. ~sarcasm~

Originally Posted by logan5

I haven't ridden a bus in Surrey for a while myself, but I don't recall seeing to many extra capacity articulated buses. How many routes actually use them?

What buses I've seen are the 96 B-Line and every single one of them is packed during rush-hour as I'm sailing past in my 2004 Impala...thank you very much. I finally got off the damned bus-system because I couldn't get to where I had to go in any time less than an hour and a half points east of Guildford.

Let me give you a hint (as a former realtor) about why I think Surrey is going to increase in terms of population. http://www.fvreb.bc.ca/blog/index.ph...-estate-market. In just the first quarter of this year sales have increased 21% with demand for two property types in particular - single family detached homes and townhomes - outpacing supply. Last month, the Fraser Valley Real Estate Board processed 1,337 sales on the Multiple Listing Service® compared to 1,102 sales in February of last year. New listings in February totaled 2,610 which added up to 7,864 active listings, up from January’s 7,307 but a decrease of 4 per cent compared to February 2014’s 8,210 active listings. That means that there are more people buying in Surrey. And as house prices increase, people are moving farther out into the Valley. What does that mean?

That means that capacity for transit will be increasing and that if we don't get ahead of the curve, we're going to be playing catchup.

[GlassCity]

I'm gonna back up Logan here and say Surrey doesn't NEED rail transit the way that Broadway does, simply because none of their buses have 55,000 people a day riding it. There's no reason Surrey can't have articulated buses come every 3 minutes either, which I suspect would be enough.

That being said, the political reality is that Surrey is gonna get rail transit. And if it does, I want it to be future proof–I want it to be SkyTrain.

[logicbomb]

I definitely agree. Surrey doesn't need LRT or ALRT at this point in time. Especially when the buses there are nearly running below 50% outside of peak hours.

What is needed is better bus service.

BRT: 96, 319 and 502 is in need of articulated buses and 7-8 min headways during rushhour; fitted with jumper queues and bus priority signals. You can run 40ft buses after 8:30pm.

320, 324, 325, 337, 501, and 555 is in need for more frequent service.

Originally Posted by The_Animal

I wish I could be so optimistic, but from what I could tell Diane Watts and Linda Hepner were and are still solidly on LRT being the solution to South of Fraser's Rapid Transit woes and they are hell-bent on pushing it through one way or another. Even a transit study finding has said that the RRT1 proposal made the most sense in the future as it left room for future growth should the population grow larger than expected. LRT would not meet such a large growth population explosion and could not be modified within cost-effective parameters. Whereas ALRT would just mean throwing on another few cars on the train and lettiing 'er rip. Certainly ALRT has had its share of problems but none to the extent of Portland, Calgary or heaven forbid Houston. I just do not like a mayoral governing body that is not considerate of the views of its citizenry and chooses to ignore a study's findings because they don't mesh with their own personal viewpoint.

Yeah, but I noted they cannot go forward with LRT construction until prep work is done, which will not be done even after the next round of municipal elections take place. Again, there's growing cynicism within the City of Surrey right now.

[zmsmln]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I'm gonna back up Logan here and say Surrey doesn't NEED rail transit the way that Broadway does, simply because none of their buses have 55,000 people a day riding it. There's no reason Surrey can't have articulated buses come every 3 minutes either, which I suspect would be enough.

That being said, the political reality is that Surrey is gonna get rail transit. And if it does, I want it to be future proof–I want it to be SkyTrain.

well said

[The_Animal]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I'm gonna back up Logan here and say Surrey doesn't NEED rail transit the way that Broadway does, simply because none of their buses have 55,000 people a day riding it. There's no reason Surrey can't have articulated buses come every 3 minutes either, which I suspect would be enough.

That being said, the political reality is that Surrey is gonna get rail transit. And if it does, I want it to be future proof–I want it to be SkyTrain.

GlassCity, Believe it or not; based off the last census...Here's the communities being serviced by Skytrain based on their population.

Metro Vancouver - serviced by Expo & Millenium Lines
Vancouver 603,502 2011
Burnaby 223,218 2011
Coquitlam 126,840 2011
New Westminster 65,976 2011
Total Population 1,019,536


South of Fraser serviced by four Expo-Line Skytrain Stations
Surrey 468,251 2011
Delta 99,863 2011
Langley 104,177 2011
Langley City 25,081 2011
Abbotsford 170,191 2011
Total Population 867,563

Population Difference 151,973

So...we don't have the population density...or do we need to fix our transit system so as to get more people out of their cars?

Let's face it, we're a Coquitlam population away from being neck and neck with Vancouver/Burnaby/New West. And we have 4 Skytrain Stations serving the ENTIRETY of that population? Is it any wonder why we don't see the numbers on transit? Because simply put - TRANSIT SUCKS south of the Fraser and that's what we've been trying to say for the past two decades. WE DO have the population, but it's just a matter of coaxing the population out of their cars and the only way to do that is better transit than the crap ass transit system that we have in place south of the Fraser River.

Take it from personal experience. I quit riding transit because I did NOT want to have to be stuck on a bus for 2 hrs trying to get points east of King George Boulevard.

Translink needs to do a complete rethink of the transit situation South of Fraser, because right now, what they have is not working if they want to attract more ridership. You have to make transit work and right now they see Vancouver Metro get more goodies than we do, so naturally they're not going to give up their cars. They'll say, You want me to ride transit with this crappy service (1/2 an hour between buses - I can use my damned car and get someplace quicker than that). Everything that has been done south of the Fraser is a BAND-AID.

[Millennium2002]

More number fudging...

Population wise, North of Fraser may only be slightly bigger than South of Fraser... but that ignores the generally more spread out nature of the south vs north.

I'd hard-crunch some numbers right now but want to get home from work soon though, and I'm sure someone can crunch them in a moment's notice.

<insert numbers here>

[Alex Mackinnon]

It's chicken and egg because everything South of Fraser had been planned by idiots who thought that the automobile was the only mode of transport worth planning around.

That makes transit both difficult and expensive to implement. Notice how all SoF routes cost tonnes of money on a per rider basis? It would take decades of redevelopment to fix the crap that has been built in your city that makes running good transit such a problem.

Ubiquitous 5 bdrm and 4 bathrooms McMansions on large lots make for crap transit.

[GlassCity]

Well density is what drives transit use, not population. Surrey does have a large population, but it's spread over a large area. And the major corridors that are supposed to get rapid transit, like King George Boulevard, 104 Avenue and Fraser Highway, don't have it. I've taken the 96 and the 502 by myself to check them out. It just didn't seem like it was needed. While Coquitlam and Port Moody are statistically less dense than Surrey is, they have many more towers along their major corridors than Surrey does.

You don't need to convince me of crappy transit either. I grew up in Richmond, and now have the pleasure of living in the transit-haven of Ladner...let me tell you, I honestly know what you're going through. And all I can say is, I guess I just look at it differently. I don't believe in providing great transit (SkyTrain) just to get people out of their cars. I think service should be improved incrementally, say instead of a bus coming every 30 minutes, make it come every 20, than 15, 12, 10 etc...until you get to a situation like the 99. Buses are capable of providing much better service than they are given credit for. I know where I live, and I think our transit service reflects our community: sprawling, low density.

In general, I think good bus ridership should be rewarded with SkyTrain, not that poor ridership should be boosted with SkyTrain. It's ridiculous that Broadway has been allowed to be left in the state it's been in for so long, while places like Coquitlam get SkyTrain, and it sounds like Surrey thinks it should come before Broadway too. To be completely honest, I think Surrey is being selfish. It's asking for 28.44 km of rapid transit because a lot of people live there. That's 400 metres more than the existing Expo Line is. Broadway has buses coming every 2 minutes in peak hour, and they're still packed to the gills. Surrey can improve its buses exponentially still. And, although I won't benefit by the time it gets built, I've seen the true horror that is bussing to UBC, and it kind of irks me that with the money that will be spent on Surrey's, in my opinion unneeded, rapid transit we could have built the Broadway subway all the way to UBC in one phase.

Also, please don't think that I'm against Surrey. I feel in general that cities all over North America are jumping to rapid transit too quickly when their bus system would still be able to provide more than adequate service for a while. Especially when they build using LRT, which doesn't even provide any better service. And I realise most people probably consider this a stupid opinion, but hey, it's a discussion forum and I feel like sharing my thoughts. Trust me, I know what it's like to have shitty transit. Since I've been old enough to take it often by myself, I've never lived somewhere where the bus comes more than once every half hour, or runs past 7pm. But I don't think we're at a place yet where we deserve anything better than half-hourly buses. And in the same vein, I don't think Surrey deserves SkyTrain yet. But again, I've accepted it, and I really do hope you guys get SkyTrain, not LRT. For the sake of the entire region.

[The_Animal]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

It's chicken and egg because everything South of Fraser had been planned by idiots who thought that the automobile was the only mode of transport worth planning around.

That makes transit both difficult and expensive to implement. Notice how all SoF routes cost tonnes of money on a per rider basis? It would take decades of redevelopment to fix the crap that has been built in your city that makes running good transit such a problem.

Ubiquitous 5 bdrm and 4 bathrooms McMansions on large lots make for crap transit.

Well, do you have any other solutions other than to increase bus service so that people will be actually enticed to use transit rather than their cars, rather than take shots at Surrey from your comfy little home in Strathcona?

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

It's chicken and egg because everything South of Fraser had been planned by idiots who thought that the automobile was the only mode of transport worth planning around.

That makes transit both difficult and expensive to implement. Notice how all SoF routes cost tonnes of money on a per rider basis? It would take decades of redevelopment to fix the crap that has been built in your city that makes running good transit such a problem.

Ubiquitous 5 bdrm and 4 bathrooms McMansions on large lots make for crap transit.

Actually, I don't think Surrey's even built that bad for transit. It's on a grid system and everything: it has a ton of potential. A grid is exactly what you want if you're trying to plan transit. Unfortunately, the density just isn't quite there yet, but in time, I think Surrey will become a very strong transit city.

[The_Animal]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Actually, I don't think Surrey's even built that bad for transit. It's on a grid system and everything: it has a ton of potential. A grid is exactly what you want if you're trying to plan transit. Unfortunately, the density just isn't quite there yet, but in time, I think Surrey will become a very strong transit city.

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Well density is what drives transit use, not population. Surrey does have a large population, but it's spread over a large area. And the major corridors that are supposed to get rapid transit, like King George Boulevard, 104 Avenue and Fraser Highway, don't have it. I've taken the 96 and the 502 by myself to check them out. It just didn't seem like it was needed. While Coquitlam and Port Moody are statistically less dense than Surrey is, they have many more towers along their major corridors than Surrey does.

You don't need to convince me of crappy transit either. I grew up in Richmond, and now have the pleasure of living in the transit-haven of Ladner...let me tell you, I honestly know what you're going through. And all I can say is, I guess I just look at it differently. I don't believe in providing great transit (SkyTrain) just to get people out of their cars. I think service should be improved incrementally, say instead of a bus coming every 30 minutes, make it come every 20, than 15, 12, 10 etc...until you get to a situation like the 99. Buses are capable of providing much better service than they are given credit for. I know where I live, and I think our transit service reflects our community: sprawling, low density.

In general, I think good bus ridership should be rewarded with SkyTrain, not that poor ridership should be boosted with SkyTrain. It's ridiculous that Broadway has been allowed to be left in the state it's been in for so long, while places like Coquitlam get SkyTrain, and it sounds like Surrey thinks it should come before Broadway too. To be completely honest, I think Surrey is being selfish. It's asking for 28.44 km of rapid transit because a lot of people live there. That's 400 metres more than the existing Expo Line is. Broadway has buses coming every 2 minutes in peak hour, and they're still packed to the gills. Surrey can improve its buses exponentially still. And, although I won't benefit by the time it gets built, I've seen the true horror that is bussing to UBC, and it kind of irks me that with the money that will be spent on Surrey's, in my opinion unneeded, rapid transit we could have built the Broadway subway all the way to UBC in one phase.

Also, please don't think that I'm against Surrey. I feel in general that cities all over North America are jumping to rapid transit too quickly when their bus system would still be able to provide more than adequate service for a while. Especially when they build using LRT, which doesn't even provide any better service. Trust me, I know what it's like to have shitty transit. Since I've been old enough to take it often by myself, I've never lived somewhere where the bus comes more than once every half hour, or runs past 7pm. But I don't think we're at a place yet where we deserve anything better than half-hourly buses. And in the same vein, I don't think Surrey deserves SkyTrain yet. But again, I've accepted it, and I really do hope you guys get SkyTrain, not LRT. For the sake of the entire region.

Trust me, I've lived in an area that you could walk out side the door and catch a bus coming down the street. I could take my pick of the 22 or the 4. or walk up four blocks and snag a #9. Corner of 5th Ave and Macdonald Street (in Kits). That was my home for 10 years before I got married 15 years ago and realized that hey, it's too freakin' expensive to live in an area where the damned house prices top $1.2M and the only reason why we could afford to live in that area was because my maternal grandpappy owned the home from just after the war ended. But Surrey's where I made my home and a car is my choice of transportation and has been since 2013. So I've had my experiences with transit south of the Fraser, where if you miss a bus you have to wait an hour for the next one to show up.

When I worked in Vancouver before I started working in photography, I'd work an 1:30-10:00 shift at LD in Kerrisdale 5 days a week. And I'd be getting home at 11:30 because of bus connections out to Surrey. And my wife would be working from 5:30-10:30 and we'd rarely ever see each other.

Coaxing people out of their cars will not happen unless Surrey increases the frequency of their bus service to every fifteen minutes at the very least instead of one hour. Because as it stands having to wait one hour makes people late for work and those people who have to work at 9-5 jobs need to get there on time. There is no margin for error, unlike Vancouver, Burnaby New West where if you miss one you can go "oh...just wait 12 minutes or less and another one will come along."

Hell in Vancouver, you blink and another one shows up. On Broadway, I had a choice between three different buses, 99 B-Line or #9 Broadway to Cambie or Broadway Station, or I could take the #10 to Granville (and see if the 99 B-Line was any less packed at Granville where all the southbound students would get off the damned bus) and you'd see on occasion all THREE show up at the same damned time. And EVERY F*NG ONE OF THEM WAS PACKED!!! So sometimes, I'd say screw it and walked.

And the vital corridors in Surrey have to be serviced...in order to attract people from their cars. Because not only are you getting people from Surrey using the system but everybody from points east of Langley will be converging on the system and GOD help Translink if it isn't efficient. Because buses will be packed from the Langley end terminus all the way straight through when service is announced and people will give it a try if Translink honestly gives them a service that they can efficiently get to work with. Because if not, they will go back to their cars and South of Fraser will be in the same boat again. Yeah, we're all a skeptical bunch South of the Fraser, but we've grown to understand that to get anywhere one has to have a PMV that we can dictate where we can go - it may be a hassle having to deal with other lousy drivers, but it's a damned sight better than waking up at 4 in the morning to get ready to get out the door at 5AM because South Fraser Valley buses suck.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by Jebby

Something like this would more than serve Surrey's needs for the next 25 years.


http://nacto.org/wp-content/themes/t...-bus-lanes.png

This is actually perfect for Broadway. Just saying...

Not surprised by the posts of some of the people here. Its attitudes like this is why voting "No" is going to be much easier.

Patullo will still be built, Surrey is determined to build their LRT (and if you have an issue with that, take it to the actual civic leaders), Expo and Millenium already covers Burnaby, Richmond has its Canada Line, there is not much you can do for the North Shore except the Seabuses, and of course, the Tri Cities now have the Evergreen Line.

At the end of the day, the only city that will be hurting will be Vancouver because they won't have yet another subway line which is frankly unnecessary due to the non-time sensitivity nature of students.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

why cant Surrey just have what Richmond had down #3 road with the 98B-Line? we all know LRT is useless, but wouldn't something like what #3 road had with the 98 be good down those streets? it wouldn't take up anymore space then surface LRT but gives you the dedication for buses. though i will say i never go to Surrey unless its on my way through to Langley so i don't know a lot about it. though i imagine it cant be as bad as Broadway and i remember taking the 99 daily down that route. brutal in June at 3:30PM that's for sure.

[The_Animal]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Patullo will still be built, Surrey is determined to build their LRT (and if you have an issue with that, take it to the actual civic leaders),

Yeah, I have an issue with that. And lots of other people have written letters to the mayor et al in the council and all we've heard is:



Which makes me think that they don't intend to listen to their constituents at all.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Actually, I don't think Surrey's even built that bad for transit. It's on a grid system and everything: it has a ton of potential. A grid is exactly what you want if you're trying to plan transit. Unfortunately, the density just isn't quite there yet, but in time, I think Surrey will become a very strong transit city.

Surrey is on a weak grid, yes. It doesn't help that much though.

The big problems are that 66' width lots on cul-de-sacs are the predominant type of built form that was used for decades, or that sidewalks are a pathetically late after thought or that gated communities have been built immediate beside major thoroughfares creating pedestrian barriers.

A SFH on a 66' x 150' in Surrey lot is 10000 Sq. Ft. of area.
A SFH a 25' x 125' Vancouver lot is 3125 Sq. Ft. of area.

That's 1/3rd the density for a single family home. That means Translink has to cover 3x the area for the same population on a route, and may well spend near 3x the amount to gather the same ridership. That's the biggest issue.

Building a few densish developments 40km from the regional core isn't changing much either. In my opinion it's still a fairly bad idea to develop areas like Morgan Crossing when Whalley is still surrounded by cul-de-sacs galore.

Now, most of these arguments could be said about the North Shore as well, but hey they pay through the nose for their lifestyle.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by The_Animal

Trust me, I've lived in an area that you could walk out side the door and catch a bus coming down the street. I could take my pick of the 22 or the 4. or walk up four blocks and snag a #9. Corner of 5th Ave and Macdonald Street (in Kits). That was my home for 10 years before I got married 15 years ago and realized that hey, it's too freakin' expensive to live in an area where the damned house prices top $1.2M and the only reason why we could afford to live in that area was because my maternal grandpappy owned the home from just after the war ended. But Surrey's where I made my home and a car is my choice of transportation and has been since 2013. So I've had my experiences with transit south of the Fraser, where if you miss a bus you have to wait an hour for the next one to show up.

When I worked in Vancouver before I started working in photography, I'd work an 1:30-10:00 shift at LD in Kerrisdale 5 days a week. And I'd be getting home at 11:30 because of bus connections out to Surrey. And my wife would be working from 5:30-10:30 and we'd rarely ever see each other.

Coaxing people out of their cars will not happen unless Surrey increases the frequency of their bus service to every fifteen minutes at the very least instead of one hour. Because as it stands having to wait one hour makes people late for work and those people who have to work at 9-5 jobs need to get there on time. There is no margin for error, unlike Vancouver, Burnaby New West where if you miss one you can go "oh...just wait 12 minutes or less and another one will come along."

Hell in Vancouver, you blink and another one shows up. On Broadway, I had a choice between three different buses, 99 B-Line or #9 Broadway to Cambie or Broadway Station, or I could take the #10 to Granville (and see if the 99 B-Line was any less packed at Granville where all the southbound students would get off the damned bus) and you'd see on occasion all THREE show up at the same damned time. And EVERY F*NG ONE OF THEM WAS PACKED!!! So sometimes, I'd say screw it and walked.

And the vital corridors in Surrey have to be serviced...in order to attract people from their cars. Because not only are you getting people from Surrey using the system but everybody from points east of Langley will be converging on the system and GOD help Translink if it isn't efficient. Because buses will be packed from the Langley end terminus all the way straight through when service is announced and people will give it a try if Translink honestly gives them a service that they can efficiently get to work with. Because if not, they will go back to their cars and South of Fraser will be in the same boat again. Yeah, we're all a skeptical bunch South of the Fraser, but we've grown to understand that to get anywhere one has to have a PMV that we can dictate where we can go - it may be a hassle having to deal with other lousy drivers, but it's a damned sight better than waking up at 4 in the morning to get ready to get out the door at 5AM because South Fraser Valley buses suck.

Yeah, the reverse commutes are always the worst. The transfers are never set up to go away from the core, even though they should be in the PM peak, so I end up waiting half an hour for my last bus, when driving home from the stop would take 5 minutes exactly. But the thing is, nobody here buses to the main exchange, because we have a free park and ride. So the half hourly feeder buses continue. But I think it makes much more sense for Broadway to get a subway to replace all that overcrowded buses than for my area to get more buses. Buses coming every minute should not be viewed as good service–it's desperation.

Like I already said, service should be raised to meet demand, not to create it. Surely there are some bus routes in Surrey that are overpacked too. They should be met with more buses, not jumping straight from SkyTrain. I know it's not as quick, but this will raise ridership little by little. Which will in turn increase service. You can have very, very good transit service with mainly buses: Vancouver has proven it. Give Surrey gradually improving bus service where it is warranted, and the rest will come.

Also, this is an unrelated question, and also much more innocent than it sounds: is Surrey bus service really that bad? I mean I thought most buses came every half hour, which is more or less what we get in Richmond other than our 3 busiest routes. I never really considered it that bad, and knew it was just a part of suburban living. After 8 or 9 pm, most buses start to run hourly, but again I always considered that normal. Richmond and Surrey have almost identical density. Which is why I'm asking, considering most Surrey forumers use words like "horrible" to describe their transit, whereas in Richmond everybody I knew considered it "average." We have passups on our busy routes too. Is there just something I'm missing out on?