In Phoenix And Houston, Effort To Attract Millennials Is Reshaping Downtown

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by JManc

Same thing going on in Houston and Phoenix as in those other cities. Author probably just zeroed in on these two.

The author, Deirdre Pfeiffer, is a professor of planning, specializing in housing, at ASU-Tempe, so she probably has a bit of a mandate to study goings-on in Phoenix. She probably teamed up with a professor at Rice or University of Texas Houston who was working on a similar project and had useful data that she met at a conference, and who she felt she could have a better chance winning a grant with than going it alone.

I don't think that Phoenix is necessarily doing anything substantial on the downtown revitalization front.

Frankly, I think Phoenix's downtown revitalization efforts are pretty anemic compared not only to other sunbelt cities of similar size, but even other Mountain West cities that are considerably smaller (Salt Lake, Denver, etc.).

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by 10023

Even my fiancée struggled with the concept of grocery shopping only for what you need for dinner that night and maybe breakfast the next morning, rather than loading up the trunk of the car with all kinds of crap once a week per the typical suburban family.

i wish we could load up once a week...i go to the grocery store 2X a day some days...walk to trader joes for lunch and then ANOTHER stop somewhere for dinner.

[Centropolis]

speaking of trader joes OMG a manhattan one... https://www.buzzfeed.com/joannaborns...Lm#.fb2xRwYxeY

[cannedairspray]

Originally Posted by 10023

Even my fiancée struggled with the concept of grocery shopping only for what you need for dinner that night and maybe breakfast the next morning, rather than loading up the trunk of the car with all kinds of crap once a week per the typical suburban family.

It's still better to buy more if you can. That's not a feature of urban living, it's a limitation.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

The author, Deirdre Pfeiffer, is a professor of planning, specializing in housing, at ASU-Tempe, so she probably has a bit of a mandate to study goings-on in Phoenix. She probably teamed up with a professor at Rice or University of Texas Houston who was working on a similar project and had useful data that she met at a conference, and who she felt she could have a better chance winning a grant with than going it alone.

I don't think that Phoenix is necessarily doing anything substantial on the downtown revitalization front.

Frankly, I think Phoenix's downtown revitalization efforts are pretty anemic compared not only to other sunbelt cities of similar size, but even other Mountain West cities that are considerably smaller (Salt Lake, Denver, etc.).

I don't know much about Phoenix but I recall it was hit pretty hard in the mortgage crisis/ recession 10 years ago and not sure if it it's fully recovered. Houston fared well compared to the rest of the country but since oil prices dropped a year or so ago, the local economy has been in the shitter and new development dried up.

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Frankly, I think Phoenix's downtown revitalization efforts are pretty anemic compared not only to other sunbelt cities of similar size, but even other Mountain West cities that are considerably smaller (Salt Lake, Denver, etc.).

I'd like to know why you think this, other than just typical stereotypical feelings of Phoenix on this forum. I'd imagine you might be right concerning Denver and sunbelt places like Austin, but perhaps you don't realize Phoenix has quite a bit of downtown construction (and tons of existing rehab/reuse for restaurants, bars, music venues, etc.), including a new full-size grocery store being built as part of a larger project right downtown. And several towers U/C, or in planning stages including a potential (fingers crossed for good luck) new tallest.

Here are a couple of the better construction cameras, which are fun to look at even if they don't change your mind.

The Stewart (~20 story residential plus rehab/reuse of historic studebaker dealership).
https://ueb.net/webcam30.html

The Link (30+ story residential tower, first of 3 phases of towers).
https://ueb.net/webcam34.html

Block 23 (office, residential, and grocery story):
https://app.oxblue.com/open/WhitingTurner/Block23

[mhays]

Millennials move out...but younger people will move in! It's not some big bubble cohort like the boom/bust/boom of our elders. If you can get a chunk of the millennials that's great. All cities are doing this, but there's nothing wrong with reporting specifically about two of them, and two that aren't as known for it.

[Sun Belt]

Originally Posted by JManc

I don't know much about Phoenix but I recall it was hit pretty hard in the mortgage crisis/ recession 10 years ago and not sure if it it's fully recovered. Houston fared well compared to the rest of the country but since oil prices dropped a year or so ago, the local economy has been in the shitter and new development dried up.

Phoenix appears to have fully recovered. The glut of housing was absorbed by 2014 and the entire region is building as if there was no economic collapse what-so-ever. Prices have recovered to pre-crash levels. Which is not surprising considering it is one of the fastest growing MSAs in the country.

What's different about this building boom from the previous one is that there is a lot of infill in the central city. Partial credit should go towards the opening of their light rail system in 2008 and I think they've had 3 extensions to it since then(?) with about 30 more miles to come.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by 10023

I doubt they change much.

It's not like millennials are some sort of urban panacea. A 20-something who grew up in a suburban subdivision, and only knows that lifestyle, is just as likely to move to the burbs as their parents.

In fact, the large numbers of suburban-raised professionals moving to the city are probably why some cities, like Chicago, are building dense yet auto-centric developments downtown, with enormous parking requirements. You can take the millennial out of the suburbs, but you can't take the suburbs out of the millennial.

Even my fiancée struggled with the concept of grocery shopping only for what you need for dinner that night and maybe breakfast the next morning, rather than loading up the trunk of the car with all kinds of crap once a week per the typical suburban family.

As long as the parking is well hidden whats the problem? I like neighborhoods that I don't need a car but I want access to a car without having to be a millionaire.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by PHX31

I'd like to know why you think this, other than just typical stereotypical feelings of Phoenix on this forum. I'd imagine you might be right concerning Denver and sunbelt places like Austin, but perhaps you don't realize Phoenix has quite a bit of downtown construction

I used to live in Phoenix (Tempe, really). I admit that I haven't been back since 2012, but I've surfed around on Streetview, and much of what I've seen since then doesn't point to massive change. If it weren't for the universities (ASU and NAU) building satellite campuses there, I don't think much would have taken off.

It depends on which sort of standards we want to judge Phoenix's downtown growth. By historical standards within Phoenix, the growth is great. By comparative standards with other cities of similar size/age, or even other factors like being hit by the housing crisis, I wouldn't say there's that much.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I don't think that Phoenix is necessarily doing anything substantial on the downtown revitalization front.

Frankly, I think Phoenix's downtown revitalization efforts are pretty anemic compared not only to other sunbelt cities of similar size, but even other Mountain West cities that are considerably smaller (Salt Lake, Denver, etc.).

That's because your perception is wrong, Denver has had a solid downtown for decades and the growth in Austin has also been ongoing since well before 2008.

Phoenix had no urban development really to speak of until the last 5 years and the development in salt lake pales in comparison, although it may seem to make a larger impact because it is a smaller city.

Feel free to follow our sub-forum if you want to see the amount of activity in the area, its pretty incredible. All one has to do is look at how many articles in the last 2 years that show phoenix doing great on population growth, Tech growth, Financial employment growth and general manufacturing. GDP, office absorption, wage growth etc.

Relative growth is the only thing it makes sense to look at. If you are going to compare all cities to NYC and Shanghai then everything pales in comparison.

Its okay though, we aren't really thought of or remembered by most of the country and to be quite honest it might be better that way.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by Obadno

As long as the parking is well hidden whats the problem? I like neighborhoods that I don't need a car but I want access to a car without having to be a millionaire.

The ability to live really well without a car is a signal of a healthy city.

And the more people who do so, the better the city. Above-grade parking degrades the city no matter how well its hidden. Heavy car use degrades the city period in any number of ways.

Most of the top cities (NE, NW) build a lot fewer parking spaces than housing units.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by mhays

The ability to live really well without a car is a signal of a healthy city.

And the more people who do so, the better the city. Above-grade parking degrades the city no matter how well its hidden. Heavy car use degrades the city period in any number of ways.

Most of the top cities (NE, NW) build a lot fewer parking spaces than housing units.

I mean that's nice but the freedom a car affords me is worth more than living in Manhattan or San Francisco.

Many tens of millions would agree with me on that.

[JManc]

I like my heated leather seats and 10-speaker surround sound.

[mhays]

I like having $10,000 additional dollars per year (AAA's reported average plus what I make by renting out my parking space).

Regardless, a city should allow choice. Don't make people pay for parking unless they want it. Many people don't have cars, particularly in core districts...think 20-something professionals.

[JManc]

I don't know if developers outside of NY (maybe they do) build new residential that has no parking but forcing people to pay for parking if it's in a dense urban area is stupid.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by mhays

The ability to live really well without a car is a signal of a healthy city.

And the more people who do so, the better the city. Above-grade parking degrades the city no matter how well its hidden. Heavy car use degrades the city period in any number of ways.

Most of the top cities (NE, NW) build a lot fewer parking spaces than housing units.

Exactly, those parking garages mean you need wide boulevards, and freeways nearby. The wider the boulevards to move more traffic faster, creates a pedestrian hostile environment.

Visiting cities, whether on business or holidays, that have dense pedestrian friendly downtowns and a robust and easy to use transit system is becoming increasingly desirable. I don't want to have to navigate a strange city in a rental if I can avoid it, which is what I will face on my next holiday.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by JManc

I don't know if developers outside of NY (maybe they do) build new residential that has no parking but forcing people to pay for parking if it's in a dense urban area is stupid.

Who said they pay extra?!

It's the reverse. In Houston, EVERYBODY pays because parking is built into the rent. In urban cities, many people avoid that cost entirely (like a discount!) because it's separated.

The world is very different in urban cities.

[Obadno]

To expect any city primarily grown in the last 70 years to not be extremely car focused is just absurd.

Its not going to happen, you aren't putting the cat back in the bag with Private Passenger Cars.

[JManc]

There are very few 'urban' cities in this country. I can count them on one hand. There are others with patches of density/ urbanity but car is still king. It's just that Houston has piss poor transit options (the train smells like vomit and the buses sit in the same shit traffic cars do) and the city has to change (scale down) their parking requirements in denser urban areas.

People really don't "pay" for parking in their buildings unless you consider it part HOA dues, building maintenance and so on. You're not being charged hundreds hidden in your rent or HOA although some HOA fees are atrocious.