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  #141  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2012, 6:25 AM
Jelly Roll Jelly Roll is offline
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
You tied the size of districts to the 300,000 figure. That's entirely, completely irrelevant.
No, districts are completely separate from what I was talking about. The municipality of Pittsburgh had 305,704 people as of the 2010 census. This is the City of Pittsburgh which has 9 districts in it but that is completely irrelevant to what I was talking about. I understand that you want to say that the metro area of Pittsburgh is the city of Pittsburgh but given the way Pennsylvania handles municipalities it just does not make sense to lump the metro area into the City of Pittsburgh.
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  #142  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2012, 6:59 AM
mhays mhays is offline
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Oh good lord.

Other people get it. Why am I bothering.
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  #143  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2012, 7:23 AM
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Pittsburgh must be the most schizophrenic city in America! I try and draw comparisons/contrasts between the city and its suburbs, I'm told that's irrelevant, and I'm told to shut up. Now somebody else tries to draw together suburbs and city into the metro area for purposes of discussion - that's wrong too, it's all about the city. So which is it folks? The only consistency I can see is that we're only supposed to look at Pittsburgh-proper, and we're supposed to completely deny the existence of suburbs, except when using the suburbs makes the city's numbers look better (but then deny those suburbs are anything but part of the city, except make clear that they're not).

Ahhhhh!

As an aside, it took me some considerable effort to figure out local government in PA (fortunately, the state had a nifty guide to it). Townships, counties, cities, all overlapping, all with different responsibilities, and a fairly active state government overlapping them all. Seriously complicated. (I got sick of not knowing who worked for whom when I was introduced to people during visits - who does roads, who does sewer, etc.) But in the end, every metropolitan area has similar headaches and differences with transportation, education, etc. etc. between dozens of municipalities. I'm not sure it makes much of a difference if there are 50 or 500...
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  #144  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2012, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
^--- That looks even worse than metro Boston... I'm guessing annexation laws are really strict in PA like they are in MA? And that individual municipalities are fiercely independent? Certainly makes implementing regional transit a headache.
No doubt, it's terrible in terms of overlapping governmental agencies, Shawn. And yes, it seems that individual municipalities here are extremely fiercely independent.

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  #145  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2012, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
Pittsburgh must be the most schizophrenic city in America! I try and draw comparisons/contrasts between the city and its suburbs, I'm told that's irrelevant, and I'm told to shut up. Now somebody else tries to draw together suburbs and city into the metro area for purposes of discussion - that's wrong too, it's all about the city. So which is it folks? The only consistency I can see is that we're only supposed to look at Pittsburgh-proper, and we're supposed to completely deny the existence of suburbs, except when using the suburbs makes the city's numbers look better (but then deny those suburbs are anything but part of the city, except make clear that they're not).

Ahhhhh!

As an aside, it took me some considerable effort to figure out local government in PA (fortunately, the state had a nifty guide to it). Townships, counties, cities, all overlapping, all with different responsibilities, and a fairly active state government overlapping them all. Seriously complicated. (I got sick of not knowing who worked for whom when I was introduced to people during visits - who does roads, who does sewer, etc.) But in the end, every metropolitan area has similar headaches and differences with transportation, education, etc. etc. between dozens of municipalities. I'm not sure it makes much of a difference if there are 50 or 500...

Actually, I think it's true, to some extent, that Pittsburgh's a bit schizophrenic! It seems many Pittsburgh metro residents only want to see the bad that exists in the CITY of Pittsburgh, while the Pittsburgh CITY residents pretty much point out all the negatives of the suburban areas. The weird thing is that some of the most depressed parts of the Pittsburgh metro area are some of the "edge cities" that were formerly huge industrial centers, specifically those along the Monongahela. Many of them are now little more than shells of their former selves.

That being said, there are more redeveloped/reinvigorated neighborhoods than just within Pittsburgh proper. Mt. Lebanon, Dormont, Castle Shannon for instance, all of them have very, very nice downtown districts that are very walkable. And these places aren't more than a few miles from the city proper. Even some of the more far-flung places that are considered suburbs, such as Greensburg and Washington, have very robust downtown cores, appearing to be far larger in population than they really are.

I think some of the general disconnect between Pittsburgh and its suburbs is because of the topography around here. The rivers, hills, ravines, etc., end up serving as large psychological barriers to having a cohesive metropolitan area. Hell, even within the Pittsburgh itself the topography serves to disconnect one part of town from the other, both physically, and, more importantly, psychologically. I'm sure there are many people that live in the city proper who have never been to many other parts of town, not crossing bridges or going through tunnels because of their own "safety zone", so to speak...

Aaron (Glowrock)
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  #146  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2012, 6:40 PM
DBR96A DBR96A is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
^--- That looks even worse than metro Boston... I'm guessing annexation laws are really strict in PA like they are in MA? And that individual municipalities are fiercely independent? Certainly makes implementing regional transit a headache.
I think after the city of Pittsburgh annexed the city of Allegheny (Pittsburgh's current-day North Side), the rich people in Allegheny did some arm-twisting in Harrisburg to reform annexation laws, so now it's virtually impossible for one municipal government to annex another, or for two or more municipal governments to merge. Disincorporation is also difficult, from what I can tell, which is why you have all these useless municipal governments that still exist. Many of them are former company towns that lost their companies, and basically lost their raisons d'etre in the process. Most of the towns along or near the Monongahela River (to the south/east of the city) are examples of this. They'd likely be better off disincorporating and reverting back to townships. Overall, as a result of these laws, only Illinois has more municipal governments than Pennsylvania does.
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  #147  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2012, 8:18 PM
mhays mhays is offline
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My point is that an urban district exists because of the whole metro's dynamics. Companies hire people from the whole metro. People choose where in the whole metro to live. Airline service is related to the whole metro. And so on.

If the topic is administrative matters, the difference in schools, etc., then sure, municipal lines matter. But the vibrancy of Oakland or Downtown Pittsburgh has nearly nothing to do with where they located the City limits.
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  #148  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2012, 10:38 PM
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I don't think suburban commuters who go Downtown to work and then don't spend time and money in the city deserve credit for people who moved into Pittsburgh's urban neighborhoods and invested money into homes to live there or in a business in the city and revitalized a couple dozen of areas. Nearby Cleveland has more city residents and a very similarly large metro area overall (2.2 million), but you can count that it doesn't have as many revitalized areas.
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  #149  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2012, 11:45 PM
mhays mhays is offline
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Not getting your point or how it relates to anything. Who's talking about suburban commuters?
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