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  #1201  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2018, 4:36 PM
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So basically, to "legally" take a bus in the far paid zone, one would have to walk through the O-Train Station, go though the gates and exit though the bus loop doors.

So what about Hurdman? That's a fare-paid zone, right? It's a transit station on a field. Does it mean there are no fare gates in that station? What happens with walk-up ridership? Do they have to walk around the entire station to get in through he back?
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  #1202  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2018, 4:51 PM
PHrenetic PHrenetic is offline
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Good Day.

Nope, but it is not immediately obvious nor necessarily easy.

LincolnF. - entrance is either upper level off the northside of Carling beside the overpass, or, esp. for the K&R beside the bus access, via that low structure beside Carling at the Bus loop access intersection. Both will have fare gates. As well, there is the structure on the west side of the rails for access from the MUP over there, since there is no no-fare pass-through passageway down there.

Hurdman - entrance is via the interior plaza area directly underneath the guideway, which is a pass-through area between the northern and southern sides of the station, with fare gates to both east and west sides of that interior plaza. To get to the bus loop, you would use the faregates to the west side of the interior at-grade plaza.

EnJoy?
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  #1203  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2018, 6:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catenary View Post
The issue being discussed isn't the gates, but rather the roads the buses use to enter the loop. People who walk in the bus entrance enter the fare paid area without passing a fare gate or staff.
No, the issue is avoiding paying the fare, be it by hoping the gate or by using the bus entrance.

My point is that the easiest way to avoid paying the fare is to hop the gate. If they can't do that because there is someone in the ticket booth, then the second easiest way is to use the bus entrance. If there are no ticket booths, there is no point going to all the trouble of wandering through the bus entrance as they could just hop the gate.

It is kind of like worrying about someone breaking in your house via a second story window when your front door lock is broken.
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  #1204  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2018, 10:05 PM
kmcamp kmcamp is offline
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No
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
No, the issue is avoiding paying the fare, be it by hoping the gate or by using the bus entrance.

My point is that the easiest way to avoid paying the fare is to hop the gate. If they can't do that because there is someone in the ticket booth, then the second easiest way is to use the bus entrance. If there are no ticket booths, there is no point going to all the trouble of wandering through the bus entrance as they could just hop the gate.

It is kind of like worrying about someone breaking in your house via a second story window when your front door lock is broken.
Well... The thing about the bus road is that all the stations are major transfer points with lots of buses. You do have a high likelihood of the drivers seeing you and calling it in.

But the percentage of people who are willing to hop a gate or chance the bus road is still way less than those who simply hope the very infrequent fare inspector won't catch them in a POP system, but it'd never get down to 0. Even if there was a manned ticket booth the hopper would be down the stairs and on a train before the employee could catch up in a lot of places.
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  #1205  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2018, 11:22 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by Multi-modal View Post
I don't know... I haven't seen any plans show an EB stop either. I think they are planning to have ALL buses go into the loop. They seem extremely adamant about their fair-paid zone transfers... to the detriment of transit service.
This is what happens when a transit system is designed, built, and operated by drivers.
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  #1206  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2018, 11:23 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by MountainView View Post
That S-curve is going to be super uncomfortable for passengers too. Why can't they use the further back platform for everything? Then the bus could immediately turn left and avoid that giant S-curve mess.
This!!!!

Why doesn't OC Transpo recognize that passenger discomfort - and at times, even hazard - that stems from their stupid bus-loop design?
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  #1207  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2018, 3:35 AM
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Ottawa gives LRT bidders more time
City says delay won't impact construction schedule and timelines

CBC News
Posted: Mar 12, 2018 6:41 PM ET Last Updated: Mar 12, 2018 6:41 PM ET




The companies looking to build the next stage of LRT expansion in Ottawa are getting more time to submit their bids for the major project.

The city was planning to announce a winning bidder sometime between April and June of this year, but will now award the contract sometime between October and December.

The change was announced in a memo to councillors from Chris Swail, the city's director of O-Train planning who insisted it wouldn't change the rest of the schedule.

"This updated schedule will not affect the current implementation schedule, which will still see construction commencing in 2019, as has been previously shared with council," it read.

Swail also told councillors the extension can work to the city's interest, by giving proponents more time to refine their cost estimates and better understand the project.

The next stage of work is built into two separate projects; one to extend the Confederation Line to the east and west, and another to extend the Trillium Line to the south.

The city short listed three consortiums to bid on each project.

The Confederation Line has:
  • Confederation Transit Group
  • East West Connectors
  • Confederation Line 2 Partners

The Trillium Line has
  • Trillium Link
  • Trillium Extension
  • TransitNEXT​

All of the firms are made up of multiple construction companies, architects and other subcontractors.

According to the city's construction timelines, the Trillium Line extension is set to open in 2021, the east extension of the Confederation Line will open in 2022 and the west extension in 2023.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa...osts-1.4573200
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  #1208  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2018, 6:15 PM
OTSkyline OTSkyline is offline
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Can someone please explain to me why the consortium building the current Confed Line can't bid or build phase 2?

Clearly they were picked for phase 1 because they had the best proposal and had good costing and timeline.

Plus you would think there could be significant time and money saved by having the same people just continue building the project instead of stopping and then having another team pick up and start from scratch.

Not sure I quite understand...
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  #1209  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2018, 6:40 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by OTSkyline View Post
Can someone please explain to me why the consortium building the current Confed Line can't bid or build phase 2?

Clearly they were picked for phase 1 because they had the best proposal and had good costing and timeline.

Plus you would think there could be significant time and money saved by having the same people just continue building the project instead of stopping and then having another team pick up and start from scratch.

Not sure I quite understand...
Phase 2 is a different project. There could be significant anti-competitive factors at play if the incumbent contractor bid on the next phase of work.

IIRC, they are eligible to bid on the Trillium line project, but stand to be corrected on that point.
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  #1210  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2018, 7:58 PM
PHrenetic PHrenetic is offline
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
Phase 2 is a different project. There could be significant anti-competitive factors at play if the incumbent contractor bid on the next phase of work.

IIRC, they are eligible to bid on the Trillium line project, but stand to be corrected on that point.
Good Day.

RTG has been engaged to assist the City's Train Office to coordinate and control the C-Line expansion contract (one contract for both East and West components).
They were excluded from competing for it since they were now the incumbent, with inside knowledge and anti-competitive advantage. So, to avoid screams from other potential bidders - coordination and exclusion.
They were also engaged for expanding Belfast MSF, as the engaged incumbent for the facility (per OTSkyline comment of cost advantage using the incumbent in a controlled, local component), and coordinating the acquisition of the additional 38 Phase 2 LRVs (continuation of a production line giving immediate and obvious cost benefits). Both these Phase 1 contract extensions (per contract) were logical no-brainers to all potential new bidders, and any judge would toss a challenge on its ear.

RTG, and the partners within as separate entities, were permitted to bid in open competition for the T-Line expansion project. SNC-Lavalin is indeed one of the 3 finalists for this contract. There is no pre-existing incumbent knowledge nor a competitive advantage.

EnJoy!
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  #1211  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2018, 8:09 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Frankly, I don't care if they have a competitive advantage. As a taxpayer, all I want is the best value for our money. It all sounds like a scam to keep prices high.
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  #1212  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2018, 9:00 PM
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As per PHrenetic, as far as I can tell, SNC-Lavalin is the only RTG partner on the finalists list for Stage 2 Trillium.

http://obj.ca/article/awarding-secon...ayed-late-2018

Considering the issues we've had with Stage 1; work-site safety, multiple sinkholes, pierced office building foundation, RTG not taking responsibility for the Rideau Street sinkhole, it might be a good thing they're not allowed to bid on Stage 2 Confederation.

I haven't been able to find a breakdown of costs on the deal between RTG and the City for the additional rail vehicles, the expanded MSF facility and general maintenance contract, but the total cost is supposedly $492 million, which seems like a good price...

Back to the main story, I understand why the Confederation bidders need more time; it's a complex project that sees a mostly brand-new right-of-way (as opposed to Stage 1 that was mostly BRT conversion), lots of tunneling involved, a few elevated sections, interlining... But Trillium is not much more than adding a few concrete pads, or "platforms", along an existing rail line. The only thing somewhat complicated is the elevated airport spur.

Last edited by J.OT13; Mar 13, 2018 at 9:13 PM.
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  #1213  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2018, 7:42 PM
PHrenetic PHrenetic is offline
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
As per PHrenetic, as far as I can tell, SNC-Lavalin is the only RTG partner on the finalists list for Stage 2 Trillium.

http://obj.ca/article/awarding-secon...ayed-late-2018


Back to the main story, I understand why the Confederation bidders need more time; it's a complex project that sees a mostly brand-new right-of-way (as opposed to Stage 1 that was mostly BRT conversion), lots of tunneling involved, a few elevated sections, interlining... But Trillium is not much more than adding a few concrete pads, or "platforms", along an existing rail line. The only thing somewhat complicated is the elevated airport spur.
Good Day.

...except for the fact that the Trillium winner will be taking over and repairing and/or replacing an existing operation including signals and switches and comms, replacing a diamond with an over/under, replacing a single track bridge with a double track and MUP bridge at Carleton, extending as much as physically possible passing sidings, cutting a new trenchside for Gladstone, creating from scratch a 'secure' airport station / terminus in a physically tight location, and resisting / bowing to pressure to take the southern terminus all the way to River Rd P&R (or less), and ... and ... and . And hopefully they are integrating the MOT 417/T-Line over/under replacement bridge into the shutdown schedule. And...and...and.
And then guarantee the city's previous boondoggle promise of 10 minute service.
This ain't no snap easy.
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  #1214  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2018, 8:16 PM
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Still much simpler than Confederation Stage 2.
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  #1215  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2018, 9:22 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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Originally Posted by PHrenetic View Post
Good Day.

... And hopefully they are integrating the MOT 417/T-Line over/under replacement bridge into the shutdown schedule. ...
No such luck – er, rather – No such planning. I asked the MTO reps at the information session and they said that they could not get the City to commit to anything about the timing or work needed for the Trillium Line trench widening under the 417. Eventually, the MTO decided to go ahead without the City being involved. Any work that the City is forced to do later - around the new bridge abutments - will be at the City's own risk and expense.

So I asked the City why they were not interested in having the trench widened, or at least having the MTO add in a retaining wall under the 417. This is the reply I got:
Your suggestion was previously discussed in co-ordination meetings with the Ministry of Transportation of Ontario (MTO). The rationale on why the City did not shift the retaining wall scope to the MTO’s contract was as follows:
• While preliminary engineering has taken place to guide procurement, any assumptions as to the location and design of the retaining wall may not match the eventual design proposed by the successful proponent of the Stage 2 LRT Trillium Line contract.
• The retaining wall will be maintained by the successful Trillium Line proponent for the life of the concession period. In the spirit of the Trillium Line’s Design Build Finance Maintain (DBFM) contract model, it is advantageous to have the proponent design and build any infrastructure that they are responsible to maintain.
• In regards to schedule, the successful Trillium Line proponent will have more time to do civil work in this area than the MTO. Notably, the successful Trillium Line proponent will benefit from the Trillium Line shutdown period, whereas MTO is under strict constraints with respect to service disruption on the existing Trillium Line.
Those strict constraints are; 3 weeks this summer in order for the MTO to build a protective cover over the Trillium Line; 3 weeks next summer to install the bridges and also to remove the protective cover. Apparently the City was not interested in allowing the MTO any extra time - even if it reduced the City's time, risk, and cost later. It seems that the City can shut down the Trillium line at its will, for any duration it chooses, but any other group has to jump through hoops to get a limited shut-down.
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  #1216  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2018, 9:41 PM
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Originally Posted by PHrenetic View Post
Good Day.

replacing a single track bridge with a double track and MUP bridge at Carleton,
Left the "Good Day" part of the quote because I always enjoy seeing it...

Is that bridge actually part of the project? I thought they were going to cheap out and only build the MUP across the bridge but not double track it. If they do double track and build the MUP that will be excellent news. (thank you for all your information and updates - appreciated always)
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  #1217  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2018, 3:30 AM
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Based on GeoOttawa, looks like they are double tracking form Aberdeen (2 blocks south of the Queensway) to Bayview. Considering the development plans for the Carling station area, including the hospital, they should be double tracking to the Dow's Lake tunnel, minimum.
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  #1218  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2018, 4:08 AM
PHrenetic PHrenetic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainView View Post
Left the "Good Day" part of the quote because I always enjoy seeing it...

Is that bridge actually part of the project? I thought they were going to cheap out and only build the MUP across the bridge but not double track it. If they do double track and build the MUP that will be excellent news. (thank you for all your information and updates - appreciated always)
and Good Day, eh!

We are not sure what is happening with the Carleton bridge yet.... the report has yet to come in. It is supposed to be due soon, and I am <snort> ever hopeful / wishful that part of the delay can maybe be attributed to waiting for the report so as to include it in the contract.
I know - this does not fit my usual pessimistic outlook, but what the hey - ya gotta be positive at least once in a blue moon !!

EnJoy!
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  #1219  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2018, 4:23 AM
PHrenetic PHrenetic is offline
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Based on GeoOttawa, looks like they are double tracking form Aberdeen (2 blocks south of the Queensway) to Bayview. Considering the development plans for the Carling station area, including the hospital, they should be double tracking to the Dow's Lake tunnel, minimum.
Good Day.

I am a bit leery of putting too much faith in GeoOttawa, especially for any anticipation of more immediate plans....but I could be wrong.

As I mentioned before, it would be nice if the winning contractor could indeed actually extend the passing tracks as much as physically possible in as many locations as possible, in effect double tracking as much as possible. It would probably go a long way to helping their keeping to the <snort> promised 10 minute schedule, and would certainly aid in their long-term operations. I hope this is part of the contract delay (silly me!).

As for Bayview !!!!!! <snort> that T-Line station should have been double tracked, and double platformed or centre platformed, at base grade (not that foolish elevated grade left over from previous swervy-curvy iterations) - ie completely rebuilt from scratch, while they had the perfect opportunity to do so, at virtually the same cost, and better present and future (leaving many growth/expansion options open) result (including helping avoid the present PoW bridge hassle). Maybe this too is a part of the delay (silly silly me!) ?!?

We shall see (*or not*) ?!
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  #1220  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2018, 4:39 AM
PHrenetic PHrenetic is offline
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Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
No such luck – er, rather – No such planning.

.......


Those strict constraints are; 3 weeks this summer in order for the MTO to build a protective cover over the Trillium Line; 3 weeks next summer to install the bridges and also to remove the protective cover. Apparently the City was not interested in allowing the MTO any extra time - even if it reduced the City's time, risk, and cost later. It seems that the City can shut down the Trillium line at its will, for any duration it chooses, but any other group has to jump through hoops to get a limited shut-down.
Good Day....

<sigh> - why am I not really at all surprised - <sigh>

Thank You for the update info. Muchly appreciated.
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