Why is the U.S. wealthier than Europe? Give credit to its cities. (Report)

[jd3189]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Any country has people who do not travel.
But overall American's do travel less.
You really see the divide in border towns on the US/American border.
Even just with people I know who live on the border, the ones on the Canadian side travel more, go work abroad, etc. The ones on the American side who actually are richer and could travel every week if they want, have never been outside of the USA or even much outside of their state except for I believe NYC and Toronto.

This is why even smaller Canadian cities have more direct flights to Europe than much larger American cities.

I guess I can agree. Many Americans do not feel like they must travel all the time when they can wait for retirement.

[miketoronto]

I just saw a great documentary at the Hot Docs festival here in Toronto, about hunger in the United States.

It is a must see documentary when it is released. It is called Finding North.

It really asks the question of why the so called richest country in the world can't feed all its people, and why there are $50 million Americans who are going hungry. It shows all the subsidies rich people get, and how poor people keep seeing their support cut to fund tax cuts for the rich.

It also showed the living conditions of Americans from rural Colorado, to the ghettos of North Philadelphia. Kids sleeping on the floor in laundry rooms, etc.

[novawolverine]

I wonder why it's called Finding North.

[kool maudit]

mike,

it's not that some of the things you mention are not problems in the united states, but you really have to think about how stereotypically -- in the most annoying of ways -- your tone is. it's schoolmarmish, scolding. i have been at tables with both americans and canadians, in the states and here, and i cringe when a canadian (almost unfailingly) adopts this tone. it's becoming a national thing, and it sucks. from what i hear, we are already infamous for it in expat circles in shanghai and seoul. it really is a form of "ugly canadianism," and i wish we would quit it. our media really ramped it up during the bush years, and now it's part of our discourse.

were this not a forum discussion, and instead a big table at a bar in detroit or los angeles, i would be looking into my glass waiting for it to end.

[rousseau]

As a former expat in Asia, I've seen it, and it is cringe-inducing. It's one side of the coin in a reaction to perceived American arrogance and relentless self-mythologizing, the other side being gangs of Canadian expats congregating amongst themselves in solidarity to the point where there is a marked tendency to drunken violence on Saturday nights. Ugly Canuck, indeed. The irony is that the American ESL teachers in Taipei and Seoul tend not to be gung ho "rah rah America-is-the-best" types.

Originally Posted by kool maudit

...i have been at tables with both americans and canadians, in the states and here...

Tsk, tsk...the revolution is not a dinner party!

[JManc]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

I just saw a great documentary at the Hot Docs festival here in Toronto, about hunger in the United States.

It is a must see documentary when it is released. It is called Finding North.

It really asks the question of why the so called richest country in the world can't feed all its people, and why there are $50 million Americans who are going hungry. It shows all the subsidies rich people get, and how poor people keep seeing their support cut to fund tax cuts for the rich.

It also showed the living conditions of Americans from rural Colorado, to the ghettos of North Philadelphia. Kids sleeping on the floor in laundry rooms, etc.

you are getting a bit preachy lately...and it's annoying. americans are well aware of the dysfunction that goes on in this country without simplistic lectures from those with partial knowledge of the situation in other countries. until your country has its affairs in order, you're not in a place to lecture us. last time i checked, your native populations live in absolute squalor.

[novawolverine]

But I thought Canadians, more specifically, Torontonians, were self-deprecating?

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by novawolverine

But I thought Canadians, more specifically, Torontonians, were self-deprecating?

There's no contradiction between self-deprecation and disapproving of others.

Having said that, there is indeed an emerging Canadian self-confidence in the face of the great mythologizer to the south. It can be a startling realization: "Hey, wait a minute...we actually got a pretty good thing going here!" But in its worst manifestations it leads to the last refuge of scoundrels.

[MolsonExport]

As I uttered in some forgotten thread:

Miketorontonialisms. Noun. Engaging in Miketorontology. E.g., Cherrypicking anecdotal examples and clinging to these as truths even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary and/or an utter inability to generalize. A form of anti-logic.

As for ugly canadianism of an internal sort, just have a looky at the Michael Ignatieff thread in the Canada sub-forum. Truck-faced ugliness to the nth degree.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

mike,

it's not that some of the things you mention are not problems in the united states, but you really have to think about how stereotypically -- in the most annoying of ways -- your tone is. it's schoolmarmish, scolding. i have been at tables with both americans and canadians, in the states and here, and i cringe when a canadian

I am sorry if it comes across that way, but that is not the tone I express when talking about these issues.

I both critical of things that happen in the USA and Canada. Both countries need to shape up.

So I am sorry if it does come across in that kind of tone.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Originally Posted by JManc

until your country has its affairs in order, you're not in a place to lecture us.

Oh man, that would kill almost all discussion on this forum if that was enforced

[brickell]

America’s failing powerhouse -
Michael Lind traces our rise to economic dominance, and why we need more government involvement to revive it

http://www.salon.com/2012/04/30/amer...house_salpart/

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Any country has people who do not travel.
But overall American's do travel less.
You really see the divide in border towns on the US/American border.
Even just with people I know who live on the border, the ones on the Canadian side travel more, go work abroad, etc. The ones on the American side who actually are richer and could travel every week if they want, have never been outside of the USA or even much outside of their state except for I believe NYC and Toronto.

This is why even smaller Canadian cities have more direct flights to Europe than much larger American cities.

The United States does not have the colonial legacy of European nations, which to this day still influences motivations, notions, and choices about international travel.

Americans have never had to go overseas (or cross borders even) to attain freedom/education/get a job/make money/seek their fortunes/improve their lot in life/etc. like MANY from the European continent did when they came to America and still do.

The US is a massive fucking country with great cultural and geographic diversity and is bordered by two other massive fucking countries... and it is separated from other continents by thousands of miles of vast ocean.

It is simply not financially possible for the great majority of Americans to travel internationally.

And even with a vastly different history and geography that does not translate to international travel anywhere near as readily as it does in Europe...

117 MILLION Americans own current passports. Sure, that is a minority considering the nation has 300 MILLION people, but it still means that roughly 40 MILLION more Americans have passports for foreign travel than the largest nation in Europe has total people. Are all of those 117 MILLION passport holder going all the way across an ocean? No, a significant percentage of them are going to Canada and Mexico and other nearby nations -- just like how Europeans travel mainly among the bordering nations in Europe.

US government and corporations have done more to push a global agenda and a contemporary vision of the world than any other nation BY FAR. More American business travelers (meaning private, public, ngo, non-profit, etc.) have traveled to more foreign nations and have maintained a presence in those nations than any other country's business travelers BY FAR.

Also, the US has the 3rd most international departures, after Germany and the UK (which both are small in size and population compared to the US and also adjacent to many other nations). 3rd most because the US is such a large nation? Sure, but that still means a hell of a lot of Americans are traveling internationally, if it has the 3rd most departures to foreign destinations.

The US, in its young history relative to Europe, has always been a place where people come TO, not go FROM. The best and brightest from all over Europe came to the US in the last century to pursue their endeavors in science, business, technology, the arts, etc... remember that. It has a lot to do with the travel and settlement trends that have been present and that we still continue to see -- the whole "Land of Opportunity" thing was not and still is not a myth. Though America is maturing and we are seeing more and more Americans going abroad and living abroad for work at global enterprises -- further poking holes in this notion that Americans don't travel overseas (the US has .

Lastly, it seems to me that many of the wonderful international photo threads on the forum are quite often created by Americans. I think the notion that "Americans don't travel" is a vast generalization with roots in the questionable relevance of per capita numbers, ignorance, and jealousy.

Oh yeah, one more thing... USA, fuck yeah!

[rousseau]

A big "ugh" to the mentality expressed by Mike, and an even bigger "ugh" to that shown by Private Dick. Canadians usually just roll their eyes at idiotic American propaganda, but some get either schoolmarmly (like Mike) or get their dukes up (like in Seoul). Eye-rolling is probably more copacetic among friends.

One thing:

Originally Posted by Private Dick

the whole "Land of Opportunity" thing was not and still is not a myth.

Of course it's a myth. It's mythical. It's bullshit in reality, of course, but it's a myth. Lots of people like myths.

Take Italian emigrants. It's hard to quantify exactly, but apparently between 50 and 75 percent of Italian immigrants to the U.S. in the 19th and 20th centuries went back to Italy because they didn't like it in the U.S. (I don't know what the equivalent percentages are for Canada offhand, but I imagine they're somewhat similar). Figures for other immigrant groups are similar.

What's more, far, far more Italian emigrants went to South America than to the U.S. If the U.S. is the "land of opportunity," why did the vast majority of Italian emigrants go to South America?

Myths are nice. Maybe they keep you warm at night, I don't know. But we hear these vociferous paroxysms of self-congratulation from (many, not all) Americans all the time, and they are tiresome. Because they're hollow. And sometimes Canadians do more than roll their eyes. I don't like it when they do more than roll their eyes, but it's not like there's some kind of inherent defect in Canadians that makes them react to bombastically patriotic Americans the way they do.

Though it would be nice if Canucks could be classier about it.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

It is simply not financially possible for the great majority of Americans to travel internationally.

Yes but if you are the richest country in the world, one would expect Americans do have the financially ability to travel internationally????

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by rousseau

A big "ugh" to the mentality expressed by Mike, and an even bigger "ugh" to that shown by Private Dick. Canadians usually just roll their eyes at idiotic American propaganda, but some get either schoolmarmly (like Mike) or get their dukes up (like in Seoul). Eye-rolling is probably more copacetic among friends.

You guys act like I hate the USA or something. I am an American citizen for your information, and I happen to like the USA a lot. I travel to the USA all the time and always enjoy it.
But I am not going to say there are not problems (just like I have no problem stating the problems in Canada).

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Of course it's a myth. It's mythical. It's bullshit in reality, of course, but it's a myth. Lots of people like myths.

Take Italian emigrants. It's hard to quantify exactly, but apparently between 50 and 75 percent of Italian immigrants to the U.S. in the 19th and 20th centuries went back to Italy because they didn't like it in the U.S. (I don't know what the equivalent percentages are for Canada offhand, but I imagine they're somewhat similar). Figures for other immigrant groups are similar.

What's more, far, far more Italian emigrants went to South America than to the U.S. If the U.S. is the "land of opportunity," why did the vast majority of Italian emigrants go to South America?

Myths are nice. Maybe they keep you warm at night, I don't know. But we hear these vociferous paroxysms of self-congratulation from (many, not all) Americans all the time, and they are tiresome. Because they're hollow. And sometimes Canadians do more than roll their eyes. I don't like it when they do more than roll their eyes, but it's not like there's some kind of inherent defect in Canadians that makes them react to bombastically patriotic Americans they way they do.

Though it would be nice if Canucks could be classier about it.

Knew that "Land of Opportunity" bit would ruffle some feathers.

Sure, many Italians did go back to Italy, so what? And I highly doubt that the overall total was 50 to 75 percent -- probably more like 20-40 percent. Many of the Italians who went back returned because they came without their families and fully planned to return AFTER they made some coin in the US. It wasn't because they "didn't like it" . They came to cities particularly in the late 1800s and early 1900s to work in construction and manufacturing, and not agriculture because they were not seeking permanent employment. They wanted to make the high wages compared to Italy and get the hell back home. They came for opportunity that southern Italy simply did not offer. Same goes for the Poles, Irish, Portuguese, Slavs, etc.

Why are you singling out Italians anyway? Sure they were the largest group of European immigrants, but I think we are all well aware of the wide diversity and large numbers of Europeans who immigrated to the US between the 1820s and the early 1920s. But I'll bite on the Italians since I know a bit about their immigration to the New World, having grown up in predominantly Italian neighborhood among many friends and neighbors who spoke only Italian at home. Most of the Italians came to the US because there was no work in Italy. Most were young men who planned to make some money and then return to their families in Italy. America presented an opportunity for these poor farmers to work in factories and in cities in general. Many ended up making enough money and brought family over, and all of the Italian aid societies set up in Northeastern and Midwestern US cities particularly, helped establish Italian neighborhoods and brought more and more people over. That's historical fact. Are you seriously questioning the veracity of this?

As for Italians going to South America, that huge emigration primarily occurred in the 19th century when countries like Brazil and Argentina courted agrarian southern Italians to work in agriculture there. Yes, South America was also a great "land of Opportunity" at the time.

The facts are that approaching a third of Italy's population came to the US between the 1880s and 1920s -- 4 million out of 14 million total. Arguing against the fact that Italian immigrants, in this case, came to the US for economic opportunity that simply did not exist in their homeland is to neglect history.

My above comment was about Americans and international travel, with tongue in cheekiness at the end, and support for the lower percentages of Americans traveling having to do with historical and geographical factors -- of which the US' historical status as a place that people were trying to get TO is one. I don't think I mentioned Canada at all... but then again why would I mention a place that has offered nothing more to the rest of the Western world than silly comedy, better watery beer than Budweiser, and Pam Anderson.

But since you put Canadian notions on American "paroxysms of self-congratulation" into the mix, I'll close with this considering my mega Euro-mutt pedigree... my maternal Irish immigrant great great grandparents didn't emigrate to Canada. My paternal Polish/Lithuanian and French/Spanish immigrant great grandparents didn't emigrate to Canada either. Hmmm, I wonder why not? Where'd they settle? Oh yeah, the US... because they came to work in the mines, mills, and factories of the just like millions of other poor immigrants fleeing to the golden "Land of Opportunity". Oh YEAH!! Rock on USA!



http://forums.nicoclub.com/the-rally...496205-80.html

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

You guys act like I hate the USA or something. I am an American citizen for your information, and I happen to like the USA a lot. I travel to the USA all the time and always enjoy it.
But I am not going to say there are not problems (just like I have no problem stating the problems in Canada).

I didn't take that from your post at all. Hay es no problemo whatsoever to be critical about the US.

I only quoted your post to air some of my ideas about Americans traveling abroad, since you were among those who talked about it.

[brickell]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Yes but if you are the richest country in the world, one would expect Americans do have the financially ability to travel internationally????

Why does this debate come up every year?

Would be interesting to see how much an average person spends on travel (domestic and international) in US versus other countries. I'd wager Europe probably still comes out on top because of their obscene holiday culture, but that doesn't meant American's aren't traveling and experiencing new things. There's plenty of stuff to see and do right here in our own borders. Why should it "count more" for someone from Toronto to visit Miami Beach than a New Yorker?

And we'll never have to worry about there not being an Applebees nearby.

[M II A II R II K]

In Europe there are also many more different places to go within arms reach as well.