Portage and Main re-opening 2016

[Ando]

Originally Posted by Riverman

Good old confirmation bias. "What I favour is correct and what I do not favour is incorrect."

Polls state you are in the minority, the majority of Winnipeggers want the intersection to remain closed.

Actually, the polls showed a clear age split. 18-34 range support re-opening. The revitalization of downtown is going to be, and is being, driven by younger Winnipeggers because that's what they want.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by Bluenote

Then Detroit should be a paradise to you

Is there really a correlation between "city that sprawls" and "poor city"? Isn't it more the other way around ... spacious suburban areas are a sign of wealth and prosperity? I don't get the NYC example, because that's the most sprawling city there is, other than LA maybe.

I don't know about the "social" benefit. Living in urbanist paradise downtown Toronto, I just recently went into another person's apartment in my building for the first time in the 10 years I've lived here. It's at best a wash ... you do see a lot of people, and there are definitely more things to walk to, but most of the social contact that there is comes from the suburban-y aspects of life that happen to have been preserved around here - i.e. the fact that my building, being old, has what used to be the mandatory greenspace (suburban backyard-like area) around it and the fact that that fact attracts dog owners (people with dogs always stop to chat with other people with dogs).

[Riverman]

I have owned all 3 of my houses and raised my family in the inner city but grew up in a planned community.

If I did it all again, knowing what I know now, I would live in the burbs instead, hands down. There is no end to the advantages.

[Pinus]

Originally Posted by Riverman

I have owned all 3 of my houses and raised my family in the inner city but grew up in a planned community.

If I did it all again, knowing what I know now, I would live in the burbs instead, hands down. There is no end to the advantages.

Great. Then you must be enjoying life in Suburban Hogtown without any care for its city centre. Then maybe the rest of is who actually care for Winnipeg and it's city centre can move forward with its future

[jmt18325]

If I had a lot of money, I'd live in a condo in a large city. I live in a rural area now, and it's just not for me. I make too much money because of where I live, and that's what keeps me here.

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by Andy6

Is there really a correlation between "city that sprawls" and "poor city"? Isn't it more the other way around ... spacious suburban areas are a sign of wealth and prosperity? I don't get the NYC example, because that's the most sprawling city there is, other than LA maybe.

I don't know about the "social" benefit. Living in urbanist paradise downtown Toronto, I just recently went into another person's apartment in my building for the first time in the 10 years I've lived here. It's at best a wash ... you do see a lot of people, and there are definitely more things to walk to, but most of the social contact that there is comes from the suburban-y aspects of life that happen to have been preserved around here - i.e. the fact that my building, being old, has what used to be the mandatory greenspace (suburban backyard-like area) around it and the fact that that fact attracts dog owners (people with dogs always stop to chat with other people with dogs).

I agree with this completely. I've lived in a few apartment buildings in some of the densest neighbourhoods in the country, and it was rare that I ever said more than a rare hello to anyone on my floor, let alone my building. However, living in the "suburbs" of Winnipeg, not only did I know practically everyone on my block, but regularly had BBQs, joint garage sales, etc. etc. etc. And then of course, you know all of the neighbourhood kids through playing at the playground, sports fields, or community centres.

I would guess that a sizeable majority of forumers here grew up in the suburbs. To those that hate suburbs but grew up in them, how was your childhood? Did you never leave your house? Did you not have contact with neighbours or neighbourhood kids your age? Did you not walk to school or bike to friends houses?

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by Pinus

Great. Then you must be enjoying life in Suburban Hogtown without any care for its city centre. Then maybe the rest of is who actually care for Winnipeg and it's city centre can move forward with its future

Wrong as usual I live in the inner city. Elmwood. I am actively house hunting out east though.

I bet you live in the burbs, right?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Riverman

Wrong as usual I live in the inner city. Elmwood. I am actively house hunting out east though.

I bet you live in the burbs, right?

What is this, year 5 of the house hunt?

Honestly, I respect those of you guys stepping up and engaging in this discussion but I feel no urge to make an elaborate case to some noob who comes in here and tells us that small town living is the shit and that Winnipeg should aim accordingly.

I've been to plenty of car centric sprawltowns and I've been to plenty of dense and compact cities and I know which model I'd rather see Winnipeg pursuing. Places like Houston are big prosperous cities, but the lifestyle it affords just plain sucks. You can't walk around without feeling like a second class citizen at best, or your life is threatened at worst. That's reason enough for me to prefer a compact, walkable, pedestrian oriented city.

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by esquire

What is this, year 5 of the house hunt?

No and I have never implied I have been actively looking until today, but thanks for trying so hard to be an asshole!

[drew]

Originally Posted by Riverman

No and I have never implied I have been actively looking until today, but thanks for trying so hard to be an asshole!

You have posted on here before that you were going to be moving out east. Maybe today is the first time you mentioned actively looking - i.e. "house hunting", but in terms of discussing a move to Toronto (?) you've certainly discussed it in the past.

[GarryEllice]

Originally Posted by Riverman

Wrong as usual I live in the inner city. Elmwood.

Ah, Elmwood, the Manhattan of the prairies.

I suppose Elmwood may count as the "inner city" in Winnipeg, but in terms of its actual built form, it's a decaying streetcar suburb. I don't think Elmwood is what any of us have in mind when we extol the virtues of dense, vibrant urban neighbourhoods.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by GarryEllice

Ah, Elmwood, the Manhattan of the prairies.

I suppose Elmwood may count as the "inner city" in Winnipeg, but in terms of its actual built form, it's a decaying streetcar suburb. I don't think Elmwood is what any of us have in mind when we extol the virtues of dense, vibrant urban neighbourhoods.

Pretty ignorant post in my opinion. Elmwood does have some areas in need of redevelopment but there are also some pockets that are really nice. Some of the decaying streetcar suburb as you call it has really turned around in the past five years. But of course like all proponents of the "P&M re-opening just because" I doubt you venture into either any parts of NE or NW Winnipeg!

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by GarryEllice

Ah, Elmwood, the Manhattan of the prairies.

I suppose Elmwood may count as the "inner city" in Winnipeg, but in terms of its actual built form, it's a decaying streetcar suburb. I don't think Elmwood is what any of us have in mind when we extol the virtues of dense, vibrant urban neighbourhoods.

Elmwood is part of the inner city but you may call it whatever you wish. It just shows your ignorance.

Here is my yard in this "decaying suburb".

[IMG][/IMG]

[esquire]

Elmwood is a fine area... it reminds me a bit of my own neighbourhood, Riverview. I think a lot of inner city neighbourhoods including Elmwood went through a rough patch in the 80s and 90s but most have bounced back. Some oldtimers around here say a lot of properties were bought cheap and rented out, but owner-occupied houses (which tend to be better cared for) have been on the upswing for the last 15 years.

Oh, and nice yard, Riverman!

[GarryEllice]

Sorry to get people's backs up, but urban decay is a fact of life in Winnipeg. Downtown has decayed, Central has decayed, the West End has decayed, the North End has decayed, Elmwood has decayed.

It doesn't mean that these areas are bad, or that all the properties are run down, or that nothing is improving. It just means that there's less urban life than there once was. You can see that very clearly in the storefront strips in all of the above areas: money marts, pawn shops, empty storefronts, vacant lots. That's what urban decay looks like.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by GarryEllice

Sorry to get people's backs up, but urban decay is a fact of life in Winnipeg. Downtown has decayed, Central has decayed, the West End has decayed, the North End has decayed, Elmwood has decayed.

It doesn't mean that these areas are bad, or that all the properties are run down, or that nothing is improving. It just means that there's less urban life than there once was. You can see that very clearly in the storefront strips in all of the above areas: money marts, pawn shops, empty storefronts, vacant lots. That's what urban decay looks like.

Fair comment.

It bears saying that putting pressure on sprawl will likely help to reinvigorate inner city neighbourhoods like Elmwood. Areas that were sort of on the margins through the cheap real estate years of the 90s bounced back when demand rose in the 00s. You wouldn't be seeing the rejuvenation of places like West Broadway if Winnipeg stopped caring altogether about limiting sprawl.

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by Ando

Actually, the polls showed a clear age split. 18-34 range support re-opening. The revitalization of downtown is going to be, and is being, driven by younger Winnipeggers because that's what they want.

I believe, this is a fair statement.

We've been drawn into a personal preference discussion reg: urban vs.suburban development, lifestyle and choice, it's really hard to not get personal when our lifestyles and choices on where we choose to live are questioned by others. No one can win or trump or decision, I choose, you choose..
On this note: Is there anything else posters can bring to the table on the opening or not, of the intersection being discussed?

..And thanks for sharing your photobucket photos with us River, very nice piece of property, I've had similar enjoyment with a place on Dunkirk Drive..

[SKYSTHELIMIT]

Originally Posted by Riverman

Elmwood is part of the inner city but you may call it whatever you wish. It just shows your ignorance.

Here is my yard in this "decaying suburb".

[IMG][/IMG]

Just awesome Riverman! It made me nostalgic for my grandparents property out in Middlechurch.

[GarryEllice]

To get things back on topic, I thought it would be useful to make the discussion of opening Portage & Main to pedestrians a bit more concrete.

Here is Portage & Main:


The image below shows the current three signal phases at the intersection. No other turns are permitted, and right turns are banned on a red signal in all directions.

• Phase 1: eastbound/westbound, plus right turns
• Phase 2: the crucial turns between North Main and West Portage in both directions, plus continued eastbound flow
• Phase 3: northbound/southbound, plus right turns

The study that the city is currently conducting is considering opening either three or four pedestrian crossings. I'm going to suggest that opening the following three crossings (i.e. all but the west side crossing) would have a negligible impact on traffic:


Pedestrian movements at these three crossings can easily fit into the existing traffic signal phases, as shown in the following image.

• Phase 1: pedestrian crossing on north and south sides (conflicts with right-turning traffic, but these right-turn traffic flows are not huge, and the southwest right turn continues in phase 2)
• Phase 2: pedestrian crossing on south side continues, or alternatively there could be no crossing at all in this phase, to allow free movement of right turning traffic
• Phase 3: pedestrian crossing on east side (conflicts only with the northbound-to-eastbound right turn, not important)

I don't see this causing a traffic armageddon at all. In particular, the crucial turns from North Main to West Portage remain completely unimpeded.

Opening the west-side crossing would disrupt these turns, but I think it's OK to leave this crossing closed to pedestrians, as the crossing at Portage & Fort is a good alternative: it's very close and thanks to the plaza at 201 Portage it already feels like an extension of Portage & Main.

Thoughts?

[esquire]

^ Good idea. I agree that Portage and Fort basically feels like Portage and Main anyway... I'd prefer to see all four sides opened but something like this might be the compromise that is necessary to finally make this happen.