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  #7281  
Old Posted Yesterday, 7:56 AM
Acey Acey is online now
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There would be decent utility of express lanes at 100k, though you obviously would not need to build them at 100k. Stoney at Beddington was 74k in 2016. Deerfoot Trail at 170k is in dire need of either express lanes or a multitude of basketweaves... the province has outlined the former as part of the Glenmore study, and that's a massive project probably over $1.5B. With grading and lengthened overpasses already done for SWRR, the cost of adding lanes will be significantly less, and a lower threshold might be needed to trigger their construction. However, unlike Deerfoot Trail which is built like shit in many aspects, SWRR with no express lanes will likely not grind to a halt at 125k like Deerfoot did.
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  #7282  
Old Posted Yesterday, 3:37 PM
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MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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Various planning that has appeared on this thread before:
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Originally Posted by Acey View Post
lol "tunnel underneath" as if that trillion dollar cost is even worth discussing.

Alleged Outer Plan that apparently has been dropped. Those eastern and northern legs seem pointlessly close to Stoney. It'd have to be balls to the wall development out there to justify this.





Signage looking like a hot mess. It goes from Stoney Trail, to TTN Trail at 130 Ave, then back... inexplicably.
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Originally Posted by technomad View Post
Agreed on all the bypasses, the smaller towns are close enough to the road to get the business of those looking for a break, and they'll have happier customers when the town is an optional stop rather than a mandatory one..

The Lethbridge bypass is far enough away, and would get enough traffic to plan a mini-gasoline alley type development in. business doesn't disappear, it just moves.. and will likely increase overall if access is well designed from the get go (unlike gasoline alley..)

As far as overbuilding SW Stoney goes, I think the added purple line below is the real long-term reason behind the 16 lane ultimate build-out, local access from Stoney, traffic for the outer ring road, and being the eventual TCH1 bypass for Calgary

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Originally Posted by 5seconds View Post
This is based on maps I got from AT, dated 2005.

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Originally Posted by Acey View Post
Here's the NE extension.



And here's 6 lanes of 88 St that will definitely come in handy for Mahogany and Seton if the latter's ambitious plans to make it a 2nd downtown ever got built out.




Neither of these roads would be part of the outer ring, but that Sarcee extension could be part of the SW outer leg.
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  #7283  
Old Posted Yesterday, 6:59 PM
Acey Acey is online now
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Yeah there's plenty of proof (including a clear provision in the upcoming SWRR/22X interchange for a south extension) that there are/were concrete plans and potential alignments for an outer ring, I'm not sure why milomilo is refusing to acknowledge that. Difficulty in finding those plans is/was likely attributable to AB Trans' desire to "protect" that alignment, which is what they've done for the last 50 years in regards to land potentially required outside of the TUC.

Plans for the alignment of NW Stoney were kept secret, and they tried to keep a lid on Henday's entire alignment for a decade. Given these precedents, to say "a plan that never appears to have existed" with regards to the outer ring shows little understanding of how Alberta has handled ring road plans up to this point.

That said, the arguments against the necessity of the ring itself are more than valid, given that Mason has now come out and said they aren't doing a greenfield outer ring. But, like I said before... once you start twinning and freeway upgrading these roads that form what could objectively be called an outer ring... you've kinda done it anyway. It just doesn't appear on the AB Trans Ring Road page.
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  #7284  
Old Posted Yesterday, 11:19 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acey View Post
There would be decent utility of express lanes at 100k, though you obviously would not need to build them at 100k. Stoney at Beddington was 74k in 2016. Deerfoot Trail at 170k is in dire need of either express lanes or a multitude of basketweaves... the province has outlined the former as part of the Glenmore study, and that's a massive project probably over $1.5B. With grading and lengthened overpasses already done for SWRR, the cost of adding lanes will be significantly less, and a lower threshold might be needed to trigger their construction. However, unlike Deerfoot Trail which is built like shit in many aspects, SWRR with no express lanes will likely not grind to a halt at 125k like Deerfoot did.
Deerfoot is definitely not perfect, but it does handle the levels of traffic we have OK. And that is a road through the middle of Calgary, not skirting it's periphery and away from the most important provincial, national and international routes as the SWRR does. I find it hard to believe a well built 6-10 road wouldn't be able to handle demand for the foreseeable future, unless we deliberately build in a way that would stress it. There are many other sections of road which could be better improved for the money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acey View Post
Yeah there's plenty of proof (including a clear provision in the upcoming SWRR/22X interchange for a south extension) that there are/were concrete plans and potential alignments for an outer ring, I'm not sure why milomilo is refusing to acknowledge that. Difficulty in finding those plans is/was likely attributable to AB Trans' desire to "protect" that alignment, which is what they've done for the last 50 years in regards to land potentially required outside of the TUC.

Plans for the alignment of NW Stoney were kept secret, and they tried to keep a lid on Henday's entire alignment for a decade. Given these precedents, to say "a plan that never appears to have existed" with regards to the outer ring shows little understanding of how Alberta has handled ring road plans up to this point.

That said, the arguments against the necessity of the ring itself are more than valid, given that Mason has now come out and said they aren't doing a greenfield outer ring. But, like I said before... once you start twinning and freeway upgrading these roads that form what could objectively be called an outer ring... you've kinda done it anyway. It just doesn't appear on the AB Trans Ring Road page.
OK, I concede it's possible that AB Trans have planned this behind closed doors while releasing very little information to the public (the previous quote is basically the extent of evidence we have). Why do this, when they have released all the plans of so many other road projects? If it is secret, it is quite disrespectful to the public when so much money has been spent (and now it seems, wasted) on provisioning for something that is not public knowledge.

I am surprised there is not more uproar over this, when the whole province goes nuts over a $500K art piece, yet we can spend unknown tens or hundreds of millions on a ghost freeway with barely a peep.
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  #7285  
Old Posted Today, 4:16 AM
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MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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When government makes even speculative plans public, the public seems to take plans as gospel. Better to keep things close to your chest, so you have the ability to iterate and constantly evaluate plans.
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  #7286  
Old Posted Today, 7:34 AM
Acey Acey is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
Deerfoot is definitely not perfect, but it does handle the levels of traffic we have OK.
No it doesn't. It was designed for 80k and handles 170k. It has the highest collision rate of any major thoroughfare in the city and comes to a standstill for hours.

Luckily, whether or not Deerfoot is "OK" is not a matter of my opinion versus yours as it has been objectively quantified by traffic engineers in terms of level of service (LOS) on a scale from A to F. Deerfoot Trail is way below the threshold of an F.

Deerfoot Trail is not okay, it is objectively an over-saturated failure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
I find it hard to believe a well built 6-10 road wouldn't be able to handle demand for the foreseeable future, unless we deliberately build in a way that would stress it.
Yep, Stoney will be fine for the foreseeable future without construction of express lanes. That said, even if SWRR does not form part of an outer ring, the possibility remains that the express lanes could be warranted, and could be constructed at relatively little cost.
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