Cross-border cultural/economic regions

[balletomane]

Maybe the best way to define cross-border regions are Canada's ecozones. Ecozones could be considered the broad "cultural/economic nation" and the ecoregions within the "provinces" of that nation.
Although this thread has focused on Canada/US cross-border regions, ecozones cross borders provincially.

http://canadianbiodiversity.mcgill.c...s/ecozones.htm

[someone123]

Originally Posted by balletomane

Maybe the best way to define cross-border regions are Canada's ecozones. Ecozones could be considered the broad "cultural/economic nation" and the ecoregions within the "provinces" of that nation.
Although this thread has focused on Canada/US cross-border regions, ecozones cross borders provincially.

http://canadianbiodiversity.mcgill.c...s/ecozones.htm

This is just another exercise in drawing arbitrary lines on a map to try to characterize a huge number of variables that vary gradually as you travel around these areas. It reflects biases in the people drawing up the boundaries, e.g. there's a special carve-out for southern Ontario and Quebec but the south coast of Newfoundland gets grouped in with northwestern Saskatchewan.

[balletomane]

Originally Posted by someone123

This is just another exercise in drawing arbitrary lines on a map to try to characterize a huge number of variables that vary gradually as you travel around these areas. It reflects biases in the people drawing up the boundaries, e.g. there's a special carve-out for southern Ontario and Quebec but the south coast of Newfoundland gets grouped in with northwestern Saskatchewan.

There are definitely issues with using ecozones as cultural regions, such as the example you mentioned. Some seem fairly accurate, such as the Prairies (AB/SK/MB), Mixedwood Plains (southern Ontario), Atlantic Maritime (NB/NS/PEI and Gaspe Pen.) and Pacific Maritime (BC).

[someone123]

Originally Posted by balletomane

There are definitely issues with using ecozones as cultural regions, such as the example you mentioned. Some seem fairly accurate, such as the Prairies (AB/SK/MB), Mixedwood Plains (southern Ontario), Atlantic Maritime (NB/NS/PEI and Gaspe Pen.) and Pacific Maritime (BC).

As an interesting exercise I had a look at the EPA ecoregions. There are three levels of ecoregion: https://www.epa.gov/eco-research/eco...-north-america

If you look at level I, the coarsest-grained region, they cut the Maritimes up into 2 different ecoregions, with the Fundy area, much of NB, and PEI falling into the same coarse-grained region as the St. Lawrence river valley and Southern Ontario. This is closer to what I would have expected.

But the standard Canadian map has all of the Maritimes as one blob, and Canadians from other regions will tell you that makes perfect sense! Sometimes Canadians hold a less nuanced view of their own country than outsiders.

[balletomane]

Originally Posted by someone123

As an interesting exercise I had a look at the EPA ecoregions. There are three levels of ecoregion: https://www.epa.gov/eco-research/eco...-north-america

If you look at level I, the coarsest-grained region, they actually cut Atlantic Canada up into 2 different ecoregions, with the Fundy area, much of NB, and PEI falling into the same coarse-grained region as the St. Lawrence river valley and Southern Ontario. This is closer to what I would have expected.

But the standard Canadian map has all of the Maritimes as one blob.

I believe there are three prominent organizations, CEC, EPA and the WWF which all have slightly differing maps of ecozones and ecoregions.
I know the CEC divides the ecozones into ecoregions and ecodistricts, but there aren't many maps on a national level of those divisions. Drainage basins could also form cross-border regions, and they often formed the boundaries of historic territories that were little settled or explored, like Rupertsland and the Louisiana Purchase territories.

This is part of the reason I was arguing that the Red River Valley was a cross-border region. The ecoregion that corresponds to it is the Lake Manitoba Plain (called the Lake Agassiz Plain in North Dakota and Minnesota).

[north 42]

Originally Posted by balletomane

There are definitely issues with using ecozones as cultural regions, such as the example you mentioned. Some seem fairly accurate, such as the Prairies (AB/SK/MB), Mixedwood Plains (southern Ontario), Atlantic Maritime (NB/NS/PEI and Gaspe Pen.) and Pacific Maritime (BC).

Extreme Southwestern Ontario forest cover (Carolinian Zone) is different from the rest of the Mixedwood Plains, it is fully deciduous, not mixed with coniferous like further north and east. It's the most diverse forest region in the country, and is the northern limit of the Deciduous Zone of the Southeastern US. Many of the same plants and trees that are native here can be found down in Kentucky and Tennessee as well.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I've lived in Southern Ontario my whole life and funny enough, Rochester is actually the only city in the US I've ever been to. Drove there for a concert, crashed in a cheap motel, drove back. Maybe a total of 16 hours in the United States, half of them sleeping.

I'm a strange Canadian.. I've travelled extensively around Europe, having spent multiple days apiece in England, Scotland, Ireland, France, Germany, Poland, Czechia, and Croatia, but I've never really been to the USA.

Strange travel patterns!

I suppose I'm atypical too -- never been anywhere in Canada outside Quebec except for the 401 corridor and a school trip to Toronto in the '90s, cutting across NW NB (Edmunston-Campbellton) on my way to the Gaspé a few times, and a short one-way plane hop to Vancouver while my sis lived there (we drove back to Quebec through the good freeway system in the great plains).

Meanwhile I've been to France, Belgium, Germany, the Netherlands, Italy, England, Scotland... and on this continent, most of the lower 48 U.S. and Mexico.

[balletomane]

Originally Posted by someone123

But the standard Canadian map has all of the Maritimes as one blob, and Canadians from other regions will tell you that makes perfect sense! Sometimes Canadians hold a less nuanced view of their own country than outsiders.

This is so true! Whenever tourists come to Winnipeg from the US or beyond, they always seem impressed by what our mid-sized city has to offer. Yet often when other Canadians visit, it seems they think we are this crime-ridden, blighted city that is Canada's answer to Detroit. I've heard some Canadian tourists ask if they'll be safe walking downtown because they are afraid of being randomly assaulted.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by lio45

Strange travel patterns!

I suppose I'm atypical too -- never been anywhere in Canada outside Quebec except for the 401 corridor and a school trip to Toronto in the '90s, cutting across NW NB (Edmunston-Campbellton) on my way to the Gaspé a few times, and a short one-way plane hop to Vancouver while my sis lived there (we drove back to Quebec through the good freeway system in the great plains).

Meanwhile I've been to France, Belgium, Germany, the Netherlands, Italy, England, Scotland... and on this continent, most of the lower 48 U.S. and Mexico.

You've never been to Ottawa???!!! (I have met Montrealers who claim never to have visited).

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

You've never been to Ottawa???!!! (I have met Montrealers who claim never to have visited).

I actually have. To make my list fully exhaustive, I'd have to add the following precisions:

- The Vancouver trip included seeing Victoria, Tofino, and skiing at Whistler-Blackcomb;

- "401 corridor" includes a few times where I picked the 402 to avoid the painfully inefficient Windsor-Detroit crossings. Crossing at Sarnia is really better, in my experience;

- I went on a school trip to downtown Ottawa in elementary school, then later in my life crossed the city twice 1) on my way to the bungee in Wakeham, Quebec and 2) on my way to a military friend's wedding at the Royal Ottawa Golf Club in Gatineau, Quebec.

This area of Ontario feels very non-exotic so I had neglected to count this, but yeah, you were right.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by someone123

That's supposed to be a biome/ecozone map? It's horribly bad at that...

Try this instead:


pink = sugar maple - hickory biome
brown = sugar maple - basswood biome
yellow = sugar maple - yellow birch biome
green = balsam fir - yellow birch biome
etc.

Your map puts Gaspé, suburban NYC, extreme SW Nova Scotia, the barren mountaintops of the Adirondacks and interior Gaspé all in the same region, then it places the wild forests of northwestern NB and Northern Maine in the same category as the lowlands of the St. Lawrence, all of southern Ontario, the shores of Lakes Erie and Michigan...

Looks like some kind of geological map much more than a ecoregion map. Makes zero sense as a biome map.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

I actually have. To make my list fully exhaustive, I'd have to add the following precisions:

- The Vancouver trip included seeing Victoria, Tofino, and skiing at Whistler-Blackcomb;

- "401 corridor" includes a few times where I picked the 402 to avoid the painfully inefficient Windsor-Detroit crossings. Crossing at Sarnia is really better, in my experience;

- I went on a school trip to downtown Ottawa in elementary school, then later in my life crossed the city twice 1) on my way to the bungee in Wakeham, Quebec and 2) on my way to a military friend's wedding at the Royal Ottawa Golf Club in Gatineau, Quebec.

This area of Ontario feels very non-exotic so I had neglected to count this, but yeah, you were right.

You mean Wakefield I am sure. A friend of mine lives near there and you can hear the screaming for his back deck.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

For sure. Rochester and Buffalo are squarely within the midwest, and they've got the nasally "Northern Cities Vowel Shift" accent to prove it (like in Detroit, Chicago, Milwaukee and Minneapolis). But once you hit Ithaca you really do feel like you've left the midwest and have entered the northeast. My sister teaches at Ithaca College, we make regular trips there, and it's fascinating how different it feels from anything in New York north and northwest of it.

Actually, it's also fascinating how it feels just a tiny bit less alien to southern Ontario than Buffalo or Detroit do. While I'm certainly not suggesting that New England is similar to southern Ontario culturally, I do think you really would have tons of cross-border romances and cultural activities, more of a Vancouver-Seattle thing going on, if it were Boston that were two hours away from Toronto and not, argh...fucking Buffalo.

I have no patience for Buffalo. Or the rust belt personality in general, characterized as it is by a nasty accent and a tetchy, passive-aggressive dourness.

Da Bears.

This is a very good observation. Toronto and Southern Ontario do have very many American affinities. It's just that they tend to skip over the immediate neighbours. Almost surely for the reasons you describe.

[Acajack]

One thing I've always found is that Montreal and Boston have a fairly strong "peer city" vibe between them. This is not to say that Montreal is top-of-mind in Boston like NYC or many other U.S. cities are. Or that Boston is thought of by Montrealers like other cities in Quebec or other parts of Canada are.

But there is still a general awareness of the other city as a neighbour and a peer in each city that is palpable. It's like Montreal is Boston's French and Canadian equivalent, and Boston is Montreal's British and American equivalent.

It's almost like London-Paris on a micro level.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You mean Wakefield I am sure. A friend of mine lives near there and you can hear the screaming for his back deck.

Now that you say it, yes, I know you're correct on that one

To be frank, I have to say I found Hull/Gatineau a bit bland (based on what I could see on these brief trips), but I'd be willing to reconsider if I got another opportunity to visit the area.

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Ya $260 GDP for Cascadia is definitely not correct.

2014 Metro GDP numbers, all in USD:

1. Seattle: $301 billion
2. Portland $159 billion
3. Vancouver $110 billion

So at the very least it's $570 billion for Cascadia, not including the secondary cities. I can't find GDP numbers for upsate but I would expect the Quebec, Ontario, NY corridor to be around double that.

If you go to the CBS site you'll see that was written 9 years ago. The numbers may have made more sense back.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Now that you say it, yes, I know you're correct on that one

To be frank, I have to say I found Hull/Gatineau a bit bland (based on what I could see on these brief trips), but I'd be willing to reconsider if I got another opportunity to visit the area.

I guess it depends on how you'd define "bland". Generally speaking, IMO we don't live on a continent with an abundance of non-bland cities.

There are lots of things to do here, so I wouldn't call it boring. But sure, it's not exceptionally unique or "characterful" by most people's standards.

[ue]

Originally Posted by balletomane

Winnipeg may be the exception to the rule. Most other major Canadian cities have a larger American city not too far away that they have a degree to integration with or they are too far from the border (like Alberta and Saskatchewan's principal cities) to have any relevant cross-border integration.
I'm sure a good number of Winnipeggers have been to Grand Forks more times than they've been to Regina, the nearest Canadian CMA.

I'm kind of curious about the cross-border thing in Sask. Do people in Regina cross-border shop in Minot? It doesn't seem very orientated towards Canadian shoppers down there, but it is closer than Calgary is to Great Falls or Bozeman.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by ue

I'm kind of curious about the cross-border thing in Sask. Do people in Regina cross-border shop in Minot? It doesn't seem very orientated towards Canadian shoppers down there, but it is closer than Calgary is to Great Falls or Bozeman.

It's a bit of a hike to get down there but many places will have hotel rooms at par and some stores will offer their goods at par as well.
I was at the annual spring home show here ins Regina and Minot and North Dakota had separate booths promoting their attractions.

[eternallyme]

Although not often mentioned, places like the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, far northern Wisconsin and northern/northeastern Minnesota share a lot of affinities culturally and geographically with northern Ontario as well.

I'm also curious - how tied to Newfoundland is Saint Pierre and Miquelon?