Why did Via not use the southern route?

[Surrealplaces]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

I am surprised that there is no VIA service between Calgary and Edmonton. What are the conditions of the trackage between Downtown Calgary and Edmonton like? Could a diesel locomotive run at 160km/h on the existing line, or would it need to be upgraded?

It's been discussed in the Alberta section. From what I remember Bombardier does have equipment that can run on conventional tracks at up to 160km/r, but the issue is that there are too many crossings. It would cost a lot of money to do it.

[VIce]

Originally Posted by Surrealplaces

It's been discussed in the Alberta section. From what I remember Bombardier does have equipment that can run on conventional tracks at up to 160km/r, but the issue is that there are too many crossings. It would cost a lot of money to do it.

Bombardier has a 90s-era design that can do 240km/h on non-electrified rail, given appropriate requirements of levelness, straightness, and grade-separation are met. Its essentially Acela Express rolling stock with the electrical traction power equipment stripped out and replaced with a Pratt & Whitney Canada turboshaft. A prototype was even demoed across Western Canada and the US when they were trying to find customers for it (nobody bit, and the whole project was mothballed).

Here it is sat in Calgary's downtown station:

High Speed Rail Canada

[Tetsuo]

CN was also a crown corp when the switch was made, I'm sure it was easier to make a deal with a fellow crown corp

[eternallyme]

Also with the remote routes, wouldn't it be cheaper to build roads to those isolated communities (even low-standard 2 lane roads) that wouldn't be dependant on schedules? The remote VIA services are enormous money-losers.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Also with the remote routes, wouldn't it be cheaper to build roads to those isolated communities (even low-standard 2 lane roads) that wouldn't be dependant on schedules? The remote VIA services are enormous money-losers.

So are roads to remote communities. Not only construction and maintenance of the roadway itself, but also policing, snow clearing, emergency response, etc. Roads are also less reliable and more dangerous than rail, especially in the winter. If the rail infrastructure is already there it would be a huge waste of money to build a whole new infrastructure and throw away the existing one.

[whatnext]

Surprise nobody's posted the real reason yet. The "free enterprise" Tories sold the rights to the more popular southern route to a private operator, Rocky Mountaineer. Nobody would want to run a for-profit train without the draw of Banff. Whenever subsequent trial balloons were floated of restoring VIA service, Peter Armstrong owner of RMR raised a hell of a stink. And so we have no winter rail service to one of Canada's most spectacular winter destinations. Thanks Tories.

[Doug]

Two Cabinet Ministers on the northern route: Don Mazankowski, Joe Clark vs. one on the southern: Harvie Andre. Plus Federal government service cuts rarely attract the kind of backlash in Southern Alberta as they would elsewhere.

[ssiguy]

You guys are trying to rationalize why the Northern route was choose and this was Mulroney's doing where rationality was second to politics and this was a purely political decision.

I am old enough to remember it actually happening and the ruckus that it caused but that was irrelevant. This decision had absolutely nothing to do with CN, CP, the Rocky Mountaineer, ridership, convenience, or speed.

Once upon a time in the 1980s there was a PM named Mulroney and he decided to appoint a certain Don Masoncowski to be the Minister of Transport. Mulroney told him he wanted VIA rail service cut especially in the West where it was bleeding red ink. Well it just so happens that Mr.Masoncowski was an Albertan who was known in Alberta circles, especially Edmonton. After politics he was at the Board of the University of Alberta in Edmonton which shows which preference he had for Alberta's two big cities.

He association with Edmonton Tories made his decision even easier because he was the MP for Vegreville which just happens to be on the rail line connecting Winnipeg with Edmonton via Saskatoon........hence the decision for the northern route was even debated. There was absolutely no logic or studies into which would be the better route because it will obviously be the Southern one. Therefore due to him wanting to reassure his own election the Northern route thru his constituency was choose and the travelling public be damned.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Surprise nobody's posted the real reason yet. The "free enterprise" Tories sold the rights to the more popular southern route to a private operator, Rocky Mountaineer. Nobody would want to run a for-profit train without the draw of Banff. Whenever subsequent trial balloons were floated of restoring VIA service, Peter Armstrong owner of RMR raised a hell of a stink. And so we have no winter rail service to one of Canada's most spectacular winter destinations. Thanks Tories.

The Rocky Mountaineer didn't start operation until the mid 90's and serves an entirely different customer base at a much higher price point. (ex. $2K from Banff to Vancouver). It wouldn't compete with VIA at all.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

You guys are trying to rationalize why the Northern route was choose and this was Mulroney's doing where rationality was second to politics and this was a purely political decision.

I am old enough to remember it actually happening and the ruckus that it caused but that was irrelevant. This decision had absolutely nothing to do with CN, CP, the Rocky Mountaineer, ridership, convenience, or speed.

Once upon a time in the 1980s there was a PM named Mulroney and he decided to appoint a certain Don Masoncowski to be the Minister of Transport. Mulroney told him he wanted VIA rail service cut especially in the West where it was bleeding red ink. Well it just so happens that Mr.Masoncowski was an Albertan who was known in Alberta circles, especially Edmonton. After politics he was at the Board of the University of Alberta in Edmonton which shows which preference he had for Alberta's two big cities.

He association with Edmonton Tories made his decision even easier because he was the MP for Vegreville which just happens to be on the rail line connecting Winnipeg with Edmonton via Saskatoon........hence the decision for the northern route was even debated. There was absolutely no logic or studies into which would be the better route because it will obviously be the Southern one. Therefore due to him wanting to reassure his own election the Northern route thru his constituency was choose and the travelling public be damned.

The operational benefits of the northern route are pretty clear - the remote service, the connection to the Prince Rupert train - but the political benefits not so much. In all of Alberta there was probably no more than a handful of VIA jobs left after the 1990 cuts - literally just some station staff in Jasper and Edmonton - and that number was going to be more or less the same whether the train went through Calgary or through Edmonton. The train was so irrelevant to the lives of most locals by that point that I really can't imagine this being the cause of a serious political battle.

Originally Posted by Doug

The Rocky Mountaineer didn't start operation until the mid 90's and serves an entirely different customer base at a much higher price point. (ex. $2K from Banff to Vancouver). It wouldn't compete with VIA at all.

The Rocky Mountaineer was actually started by VIA Rail in 1988 and sold off in 1990. Of course it was a much more basic service in the early years operated with spare VIA coaches, not the high-end train that it is now.

[speedog]

Originally Posted by VIce

Bombardier has a 90s-era design that can do 240km/h on non-electrified rail, given appropriate requirements of levelness, straightness, and grade-separation are met. Its essentially Acela Express rolling stock with the electrical traction power equipment stripped out and replaced with a Pratt & Whitney Canada turboshaft. A prototype was even demoed across Western Canada and the US when they were trying to find customers for it (nobody bit, and the whole project was mothballed).

Here it is sat in Calgary's downtown station:

High Speed Rail Canada

Of note, the above picture is not of Calgary's downtown railway station - the location of Calgary's downtown CPR railway station is about a block east of the picture above. The picture above was taken in the Canadian Pacific Railway Pavilion out of which the Royal Canadian Pacific train home base is located (link).

As for Calgary's real downtown CPR railway station located amidst/behind Palliser Square (Calgary Tower) - it probably hasn't seen a regular fare paying passenger since the mid-80's and most Calgarians have probably never ventured foot in it. IN the picture below, one can see the more modern structure on the left which is the Canadian Pacific Railway Pavilion - the actual CPR railway station would've been underneath that overpass and behind the Palliser Hotel and I believe all the passenger handling facilities are still there. Anyone is welcome to correct me as I am going by memory only from living here in Calgary since 1979 and have been in both of the referenced facilities above.

[SHOFEAR]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

You guys are trying to rationalize why the Northern route was choose and this was Mulroney's doing where rationality was second to politics and this was a purely political decision.

I am old enough to remember it actually happening and the ruckus that it caused but that was irrelevant. This decision had absolutely nothing to do with CN, CP, the Rocky Mountaineer, ridership, convenience, or speed.

Once upon a time in the 1980s there was a PM named Mulroney and he decided to appoint a certain Don Masoncowski to be the Minister of Transport. Mulroney told him he wanted VIA rail service cut especially in the West where it was bleeding red ink. Well it just so happens that Mr.Masoncowski was an Albertan who was known in Alberta circles, especially Edmonton. After politics he was at the Board of the University of Alberta in Edmonton which shows which preference he had for Alberta's two big cities.

He association with Edmonton Tories made his decision even easier because he was the MP for Vegreville which just happens to be on the rail line connecting Winnipeg with Edmonton via Saskatoon........hence the decision for the northern route was even debated. There was absolutely no logic or studies into which would be the better route because it will obviously be the Southern one. Therefore due to him wanting to reassure his own election the Northern route thru his constituency was choose and the travelling public be damned.

The politics and consequences of VIA going through Edmonton is hardly a drop in the bucket compared to CPR choosing the Calgary/Rogers pass route instead of Edmonton/Yellowhead pass.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by speedog

As for Calgary's real downtown CPR railway station located amidst/behind Palliser Square (Calgary Tower) - it probably hasn't seen a regular fare paying passenger since the mid-80's and most Calgarians have probably never ventured foot in it. IN the picture below, one can see the more modern structure on the left which is the Canadian Pacific Railway Pavilion - the actual CPR railway station would've been underneath that overpass and behind the Palliser Hotel and I believe all the passenger handling facilities are still there. Anyone is welcome to correct me as I am going by memory only from living here in Calgary since 1979 and have been in both of the referenced facilities above.

If you offered me $1 million to draw a picture of Calgary's CPR station I couldn't do it, and that's despite having been in it in 1989. I just remember it was meshed somewhere in a jumbled mess of buildings and overpasses. Is there actually a station building or is it basically an underground concourse a la Penn Station?

FWIW it would have regularly handled VIA passengers right up to the 1990 service cuts, and even since then, it has been used (lightly) by passengers on the Rocky Mountaineer train.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Honestly, I think remote services within a single province belong with provincial governments, not VIA, since those constitutionally belong with provincial governments, not Ottawa. That said, I wouldn't want to give Ontario the Sudbury-White River route since they would cut it instantly (like with Ontario Northland), and I have doubts that Quebec would maintain the run to Senneterre...

I've envisioned some sort of federal-provincial cooperation to run remote services trains that would merge VIA's existing remote routes with the Ontario Northland.

As for replacing them with roads, it would be even more expensive, as the maintenance costs of roads, especially in arctic winters, would be even more astronomical.

Really the only way out of this expense would be depopulating these areas and relocating the people to more southerly locations but that's a huge non-starter.

[speedog]

Originally Posted by esquire

If you offered me $1 million to draw a picture of Calgary's CPR station I couldn't do it, and that's despite having been in it in 1989. I just remember it was meshed somewhere in a jumbled mess of buildings and overpasses. Is there actually a station building or is it basically an underground concourse a la Penn Station?

FWIW it would have regularly handled VIA passengers right up to the 1990 service cuts, and even since then, it has been used (lightly) by passengers on the Rocky Mountaineer train.

Pictures of Calgary's last regularly used train station are very difficult to track down - it is in a probably now unused space at a lower level on the south side of the Calgary Tower with the station being under the parkade in the picture below. I know I have gotten into the space from the Palliser Hotel some 10+ years ago while on a lunch break at a Convention I was at - probably shouldn't have been there but it was quite eerie in that area...


Other images...

Looking east at the station...


I believe looking south at the trackside entrance...


Looking ESE at station...

[HomeInMyShoes]

Originally Posted by speedog

That image just says so much about the support of rail in Western Canada over the years.

[geotag277]

There's something called Red Arrow which offers daily bus service between Calgary and Edmonton, leaving every couple of hours, and round trip costs about 70 dollars. These buses are comfortable, offer wifi, and take about 3 1/2 hours.

It would be nice to have a high speed train between our two cities, but outside of that I see zero value add in investing extremely large sums of money in building and maintaining a rail line between our two cities. I believe people are romanticizing rail travel very much in this thread.

[go_leafs_go02]

Vancouver to Seattle/Portland has some pretty good ridership on Amtrak Cascades, although the train runs extremely slow through Metro Vancouver until it gets to Washington. The Via Canadian in BC is seen as a tourist train, which compares to the Rocky Mountaineer, although much cheaper.

Did the Toronto to Vancouver journey in May 2014, and it was absoultely wonderful. Of course, did it for the romance on the rails perspective and to see the country and to dine on wonderful food, but I'd recommend it to anyone. Sleeper class for 2 was about 1700 for 4 nights, 3 days, tax in.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by geotag277

There's something called Red Arrow which offers daily bus service between Calgary and Edmonton, leaving every couple of hours, and round trip costs about 70 dollars. These buses are comfortable, offer wifi, and take about 3 1/2 hours.

It would be nice to have a high speed train between our two cities, but outside of that I see zero value add in investing extremely large sums of money in building and maintaining a rail line between our two cities. I believe people are romanticizing rail travel very much in this thread.

Ya but is that bus able to capture business travel? Maybe it's different out there but here in Ontario business travellers wouldn't be caught dead getting on an intercity bus.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by esquire

The old downtown CPR station in Edmonton was at Jasper and 109, right where the Save On Foods parking lot is now.

Given that the High Level Bridge is still there with tracks and all, I suppose that in theory tracks could be re-extended into downtown Edmonton, but it would cost a fortune and there is precious little space to build a terminal. The only place it could go is, I suppose, if the various commercial buildings along 109 were purchased and demolished. Although that said, I'm sure if and when passenger service is one day reestablished between Calgary and Edmonton, Edmonton will be so big that Whyte Ave will probably be considered sufficiently central anyway.

Why not make the current Via station in Edmonton a Union Station? It is about 3km to the future NAIT LRT station on the Metro Line. I am certain the city would look at connecting that line to the Via Station, if the demand was there.