HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Alberta & British Columbia > Calgary > Projects & Construction Updates


View Poll Results: What do you think of the design?
I love it! 156 44.70%
It's good. 134 38.40%
I don't like it. 28 8.02%
Nuke it from Orbit (waste of taxpayers dollars) 31 8.88%
Voters: 349. You may not vote on this poll

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #141  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 6:49 AM
DizzyEdge's Avatar
DizzyEdge DizzyEdge is offline
My Spoon Is Too Big
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Calgary
Posts: 9,191
Quote:
Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed View Post
The problem with that design, is that its impossible.
is it structurally impossible, or the fact that gravity would be pulling damn hard on the middle of the bridge trying to pull it down into the water since it's unbalanced?

I guess what I mean is, would the point of failure be where it attaches to the shoreline.
__________________
Concerned about protecting Calgary's built heritage?
www.CalgaryHeritage.org
News - Heritage Watch - Forums
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #142  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 6:51 AM
jeffwhit's Avatar
jeffwhit jeffwhit is offline
effete latte-lifter
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Aalborg, DK
Posts: 3,689
I just read through the bridge thread on CalgaryPuck, which I think is a far more accurate barometer of the general population that news comments sections, and they are very positive. (I know there are a few of us on there.) Nonetheless, nice to read some sane opinions, (No one over there called anyone else a "Left Wing Spammer.)
__________________
Arts!: Click to listen
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #143  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 7:04 AM
Radley77's Avatar
Radley77 Radley77 is offline
The City That Moves
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bridgeland, Calgary
Posts: 1,450
I am suprised that the bridge would be so controversial, and I think it has created a lot of political discussion.

I would pay a $3 fare (same as park and ride) to cross for the use of this bridge. At that price, and the anticipated 5,000 pedestrians per day the bridge would have a rate of return of 26%. ((5,000 * $3 * 365.25) / $22,000,000) + 2% - ($220,000 / $22,000,000) = 26% including inflation and backing out operating costs.

Obviously, a proposition that would have any business man salivating considering the city's low borrowing costs.

The problem is that some in the suburbs don't want to pay for an investment that they will not see any return on and is fully rational and justified given they won't be using it much. I think most people in the city understand that different areas of the city have different priorities and without some consensus on issues no work would get done.

What the city should do to address this is focus more on a libertarian agenda (higher degrees of economic freedom for each community). While I think that things like public education and public health have a group benefit, I think that it's important that the our transportation system behave as if it were a business and derived it's funding from tax assessments in the immediate surrounding communities.

I think the reason why Calgary MLC is so effective at getting it's goals accomplished is that it derives it's own funding from the community revitalization levy in the area and thus has less political resistance.

Incremental taxes in the area could come from the Arthur Erickson building, Jamieson Place, Centennial Place, Eau Claire Tower and Waterfront...

Could a CRL (community revitalization levy) been implemented in this case to get this project funded without political flare-ups?

I am not really familiar with CRL's, but this does seem to be an effective way of avoiding populist criticism...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #144  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 7:11 AM
DizzyEdge's Avatar
DizzyEdge DizzyEdge is offline
My Spoon Is Too Big
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Calgary
Posts: 9,191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radley77 View Post
I am suprised that the bridge would be so controversial, and I think it has created a lot of political discussion.

I would pay a $3 fare (same as park and ride) to cross for the use of this bridge. At that price, and the anticipated 5,000 pedestrians per day the bridge would have a rate of return of 26%. ((5,000 * $3 * 365.25) / $22,000,000) + 2% - ($220,000 / $22,000,000) = 26% including inflation and backing out operating costs.

Obviously, a proposition that would have any business man salivating considering the city's low borrowing costs.

The problem is that some in the suburbs don't want to pay for an investment that they will not see any return on and is fully rational and justified given they won't be using it much. I think most people in the city understand that different areas of the city have different priorities and without some consensus on issues no work would get done.

What the city should do to address this is focus more on a libertarian agenda (higher degrees of economic freedom for each community). While I think that things like public education and public health have a group benefit, I think that it's important that the our transportation system behave as if it were a business and derived it's funding from tax assessments in the immediate surrounding communities.

I think the reason why Calgary MLC is so effective at getting it's goals accomplished is that it derives it's own funding from the community revitalization levy in the area and thus has less political resistance.

Incremental taxes in the area could come from the Arthur Erickson building, Jamieson Place, Centennial Place, Eau Claire Tower and Waterfront...

Could a CRL (community revitalization levy) been implemented in this case to get this project funded without political flare-ups?

I am not really familiar with CRL's, but this does seem to be an effective way of avoiding populist criticism...
One problem is that downtown (and the inner city in general) would get funding from the local levy but be used (and worn out) by the 100,000+ people who come downtown to work/play.
__________________
Concerned about protecting Calgary's built heritage?
www.CalgaryHeritage.org
News - Heritage Watch - Forums
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #145  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 7:14 AM
bob1954 bob1954 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 869
You gonna pay 3 bucks everytime you cross it!! Did I hear you right! Great, A toll bridge.. I might go 30 cents!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #146  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 7:36 AM
korzym's Avatar
korzym korzym is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 703
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffwhit View Post
I just read through the bridge thread on CalgaryPuck, which I think is a far more accurate barometer of the general population that news comments sections, and they are very positive. (I know there are a few of us on there.) Nonetheless, nice to read some sane opinions, (No one over there called anyone else a "Left Wing Spammer.)
You know internet forums are predominantly frequented by young people? Sure there are a few well aged people here that work for the city and are trying to save face. Consider the demographics better.
In elections its the older crowd that decides the election, usually folks aged from 40+. something like that. Older people make up the bulk of the votes.

Just take it back to the new alberta licence plate issue. On the internet people were more liberal. they wanted to go away with "wild rose county" and go with "strong and free" as the new motto. but the phone line results were almost night and day, with many favouring keeping the current motto. I believe the survey results from the phone lines were dominated by old people.

The newer the news media, typically the younger the age group.
+
Elections being decided by older people
=
the news media wins [such as cfcn, cbc, herald] the title as being more relevant in the next election.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #147  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 7:56 AM
Yume-sama's Avatar
Yume-sama Yume-sama is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Vancouver / Calgary / Tokyo
Posts: 7,523
It looks... interesting. I'm not a fan of the color, and architecturally it's certainly not the most stunning bridge that'll bring the fanfare and tourist dollars

But, I'm not opposed to my $20 going towards it.

So, I voted that it is "Good", it certainly won't be "iconic" outside of the city. Though if Caltrava was to come up with something "not good", that would be a bit of a shock.

Compared to other Caltrava projects it is probably on the less expensive side, and it only slightly looks like it came out of the bargain bin.

All that's missing are some big, painted, concrete fish.

Last edited by Yume-sama; Jul 29, 2009 at 8:12 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #148  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 10:30 AM
Vascilli Vascilli is offline
Hare Expert
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Calgary, Toronto
Posts: 1,053
I was hoping it would be a bit more "in your face," I like eye magnets.

No fish please.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #149  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 12:02 PM
shreddog shreddog is offline
Beer me Captain
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Taking a Pis fer all of ya
Posts: 5,142
As an iron ringer myself, the first thought I had when I saw this bridge - as I do whenever I see any bridge proposal - is wonder "How will the fourth year Civies at UoC will hang a VW off the span?"

Not sure of the gap sizes but it appears doable - then again, UoC Civies haves been short of initiative as of late.

Sent the images to two civie friends of mine - one of whom is a very celebrated bridge designer in Canada - and both came back with two thumbs up. Love it or not, but this certainly will make the design for the second bridge that much more intesesting. In the end, I think that will be the greatest contribution that this bridge makes to the Calgary scene. No longer will a single concrete span with fish/buffalo/?? motif be deemed as "cutting edge".

While it may not get lots of face time in the pop media in Canada, you can be sure that it will get lots of coverage in the Engineering rags in Canada and have a positive influence on future work.
__________________
Leaving a Pis fer all of ya!

Do something about your future.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #150  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 12:05 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 11,429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radley77 View Post
I think the reason why Calgary MLC is so effective at getting it's goals accomplished is that it derives it's own funding from the community revitalization levy in the area and thus has less political resistance.

Incremental taxes in the area could come from the Arthur Erickson building, Jamieson Place, Centennial Place, Eau Claire Tower and Waterfront...

Could a CRL (community revitalization levy) been implemented in this case to get this project funded without political flare-ups?

I am not really familiar with CRL's, but this does seem to be an effective way of avoiding populist criticism...
The thing is, the CMLC is not funded by a levy. A condo unit of the same value will not pay higher taxes in the east village or rivers district than in the west end. CMLC is funded by Tax Increment Financing.

A TIF uses the increase in tax revenue due to development to pay off the loan. IE: there is no new money collected. In the end, the entire city ends up paying for all the improvements, since unlike normal development the city does not get to benefit immediately from the increased tax revenue, technically forcing the rest of the city to pay for services while the development money goes to the TIF.

Fortunately for the CMLC the TIF district is so large the effect will be smaller (as in a shorter time period, and with less risk of not paying off), especially with the Bow included which will help pay off the loan much sooner than otherwise.

TIFs in the end are political tools to get controversial expenditures symbolically 'downloaded' to a neighborhood and off the city's books. In aggregate there is no difference compared to straight debt financing.

For a purely fiscal point of view, people should be more complaining about the bridge being built by the CMLC since it is being funded by their property taxes, unlike this one which is funded by resource royalties.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #151  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 12:19 PM
Me&You Me&You is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,760
I read several comments on the news sites stating something along the lines that "Why couldn't this $22MM go towards new LRT" or roads, or interchanges? In fact, one poster even suggested this money could've been instead used to extend the NW and NE LRT lines!

My question is, what exactly would ~$20MM give you in new road or LRT construction? Not buses or trains, but actual track/stations... I can't imagine it would be more than a couple hundred meters of LRT track.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #152  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 12:41 PM
freeweed's Avatar
freeweed freeweed is offline
Home of Hyperchange
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Dynamic City, Alberta
Posts: 17,566
Quote:
Originally Posted by O-tacular View Post
Speaking of which, isn;t it a tad ironic to paint a bridge devoted to peace blood red? I get the reference to the sacrifice of soldiers etc.. but just saying.
Poppies.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #153  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 1:21 PM
Socguy Socguy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 494
Well, don't feel too bad with all the negative comments out there... I watched a doc on the CN tower the other day and, believe it or not, that was another vilified project. One guy was just plain infuriated at the simple thought of this 'eyesore' cluttering up his view. Funny thing was, once it actually got under construction, all the whiners shut up. 'Course it couldn't hurt that it fixed their TV's...

As far as the Peace bridge goes: I voted 'good', but after some reflection I would upgrade my vote to 'great'. It's a practical, yet entertaining design that fits all the necessary restrictions. Is it world class? Too early to tell I think.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #154  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 1:22 PM
Wooster's Avatar
Wooster Wooster is offline
Round Head
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,688
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverRat View Post

I've always been curious why they changed the location to 8th street. The 7th street location seemed like a more logical choice, as it links to the existing crosswalk on Memorial, and would require a shorter span to link over to Princes Island. I'm guessing the height restriction for the helicopter pad would not be an issue on 7th as well.

Anyone know why the change in location was made?

8th is a little closer to the population density center of Kensington, but I'm guessing there's other reasons as well.
It's really aligns with 7th street on the south side and 8th street on the north side. 7th street at the north side would be a bridge from Prince's Island.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #155  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 1:40 PM
Bigtime's Avatar
Bigtime Bigtime is offline
Very tall. Such Scrape.
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 17,731
Post

Bridge Draws Jeers, Cheers
Design Finally Revealed For New $24.5M Bow River Footbridge; Architect sees 'purity' in Peace Bridge

By Jason Markusoff, Calgary Herald July 29, 2009

The newly released design for the city's new pedestrian bridge has been derided by some Calgarians as a gaudy red waste of $24.5 million, and praised by others as a sleek, elegant contribution to downtown Calgary.

But to the architect, Santiago Calatrava, the Bow span is the most accessible, functional and technically challenging one he's ever made.

"For me, it's a highlight, because I have never done a bridge like that,"
Calatrava said in an exclusive interview with the Herald.

"Of the 14 bridges I have built, there's not one that follows this principle, not one that is done with this purity. And technically, it is a demanding bridge."

Limited by City Hall's demand that no pillars go into the Bow River, and that no high masts interfere with the nearby Eau Claire helipad, the famed architect-engineer designed a webbed, tubular structure that stretches 130 metres across the water with only a slight, one per cent slope.

Unlike almost every other bridge on Earth, the steel helix supports itself, needing no beams, arches, cables or lower supports other than embankments, hidden in the river banks.

The Peace Bridge will be completed in fall 2010, offering separate pathways for cyclists and pedestrians.

Calatrava described it repeatedly as a "human bridge," one he envisions in what he called "Canadian red," in a nod to our flag, but also to make it stand out in winter and summer.

The Spanish-born architect said he's aware of public and council lambasting of the project's cost and extravagance in the midst of recession. But he said the rebuttal is offered by New York City, which he currently calls home.

"I think the greatest achievements in New York is the Empire State Building, the Chrysler Building, the Rockefeller Center, the George Washington Bridge. Those were all built in the Great Depression," he said.

"One day or another this crisis will be finished and we will show ourselves to the future generations as courageous people, living in their future, not only in our future. I mean, in New York you have those great buildings, the greatest in the city, built in the most beautiful time."


Initial public response was mostly negative, much of it with a resentment rooted in the project's cost and skepticism of the need for a sixth bridge that pedestrians can take across the Bow downtown.

"It is hideous and I can't believe what it costs--ridiculous," Tracey Bryant wrote to the Herald.

"I cannot believe that a local architect could not have come up with a more original and appealing design," Susan Waters wrote.

"This to me looks like something a child in school would dream up and it would cost far less than $24.5 million."

Others were impressed by the unique design.

"Brilliant! Beautiful! Be proud, Calgary!" said Gordon Heinsen.

"Words that came immediately to mind when I first saw the design for the Peace Bridge were:symmetrical, fluid and airy," said Greg Schoeman.

"As interesting and as beautiful from the inside as the outside. I can't wait to walk or bike across it!"

Mayor Dave Bronconnier, accused by some aldermen of trying to deflect criticism by giving the bridge a military theme, said it's a design that will nicely link the modern condos in Eau Claire to a beautified Memorial Drive, and reduce conflict between stroller-pushing parents and commuting cyclists.

"It's a piece of infrastructure, sort of like the Centre Street Bridge. It's a very nice structure, it serves its purpose and at the same time it's an attractive bridge."

The mayor dined with Calatrava when the architect last visited in May to present his design to city staff. Bronconnier said he was impressed with how humble Calatrava was, and with how interested he was in various aspects of the Bow River.

Calatrava agreed to an interview with the Herald during that visit, on the condition it not be published until the design was released.

"I have to say that the first impressions I got about the bridge when I arrived here was that a lot of people--in a very inhospitable day--were jogging around," he said.

"And I thought for those people, and in order to blend the communication of the north side with the south side of the river bank, you need a bridge that invites you to go through, even with the speed of the wind and the speed of the snowy weather."


The city now pegs construction costs at $18 million, but the overall project at $24.5 million, including engineering costs, landscaping and contingencies.

There's $500,000 left over that council has approved for conceptual designs of another pedestrian and cycling bridge connecting East Village to Bridgeland.

Trying to ward off critics of the price tag, the city released a chart comparing the cost per square metre of the Peace Bridge -- $30,400 per in 2008 dollars--with other well-known footbridges.

London's Millennium Bridge cost $50,000 per square metre, a forthcoming Edmonton crossing cost $33,000 per square metre, while the Esplanade Riel in Winnipeg averaged $50,000.


Ron Goodfellow, like many Calgary architects, was frustrated Calatrava was selected without any design competition and chance for locals to offer designs.

He thought the design was striking, although didn't seem genuinely Calgarian.

But he said it will contribute to the city if it raises awareness of what great architecture looks like.

"That's one thing I would be using as a measuring stick if it was successful or not, or just another celebrity architect coming into Calgary and imposing something," Goodfellow said.

JMARKUSOFF@THEHERALD. CANWEST.COMLog on for the full Q&A with Calatrava, plus Don Braid's blog

---------

The Peace Bridge

-130 metres long, 6.2 metres wide

-$18 million to construct, $24.5 million overall

-put up for construction bids this fall, completed next fall

-Bike lanes in the centre, pedestrian paths with handrails on either side

-Tempered glass covering on top panels, open side panels for air circulation

-Lit at night with LED lights

© Copyright (c) The Calgary Herald
Link
_________________________________________________________________

Good article and we finally get to hear from Calatrava himself on the design and influences for the bridge.

I have a question for you oldschool, since you are in the industry as you have stated before. Does the architect Ron Goodfellow at the end of the article have any ability to have designed something like this?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #156  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 1:50 PM
freeweed's Avatar
freeweed freeweed is offline
Home of Hyperchange
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Dynamic City, Alberta
Posts: 17,566
I'm REALLY looking forward to the second bridge now. If local architects are as creative as some claim, it's going to be damned spectacular!

Hey, is that bridge in Edmonton that costs similar getting such raw hatred from the phone-in crowd? ColdRSX?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #157  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 2:07 PM
Wooster's Avatar
Wooster Wooster is offline
Round Head
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,688
After having thought about this design quite a bit and hearing from the architect, I'll weigh in my opinion in a little more depth.

I think what attracts me most about this design and all contemporary architecture that I like is that it is fundamentally about its functionality. It seems very clear to me that the dual objectives of maintaining a low height and creating a clear span across the river really drove the design and engineering response. Couple with that is an obviously clearly thought out approach to best accommodating the user - which is cyclists, bladers and pedestrians.

- The flat profile is due to its height restriction, but also to make it as accessible and easy to use as possible.

- It is wide with separated lanes for different users, reducing congestion and improving safety.

- It has a clear flat span, which requires a strong, straight, very rigid structure - which drives the decision to use a helix as its structural element.

- The straightness of the bridge also is much more direct, user friendly and likely ultimately safer for bikes whipping around pedestrians in a semi-enclosed structure.

- There isn't any feature without purpose, there isn't really needless adornment.

- The Helix in turn adds the potential for weather protection, unique lighting opportunities and a damn unique user experience moving through it. It's like a space warp or something.

- All these functional moves add up also to something that is quite beautiful as well - which I think is his true brilliance.

As he said, structurally, this is one of his most demanding bridges ever, and I think those challenges, constraints and functional considerations ended up as a brilliant design. Colour me impressed, Calatrava is a master.

Last edited by Wooster; Jul 29, 2009 at 2:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #158  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 2:27 PM
Bigtime's Avatar
Bigtime Bigtime is offline
Very tall. Such Scrape.
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 17,731
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wooster View Post
After having thought about this design quite a bit and hearing from the architect, I'll weigh in my opinion in a little more depth.

I think what attracts me most about this design and all contemporary architecture that I like is that it is fundamentally about its functionality. It seems very clear to me that the dual objectives of maintaining a low height and creating a clear span across the river really drove the design and engineering response. Couple with that is an obviously clearly thought out approach to best accommodating the user - which is cyclists, bladers and pedestrians.

- The flat profile is due to its height restriction, but also to make it as accessible and easy to use as possible.

- It has a clear flat span, which requires a strong, straight, very rigid structure - which drives the decision to use a helix as its structural element.

- The straightness of the bridge also is much more direct, user friendly and likely ultimately safer for bikes whipping around pedestrians in a semi-enclosed stucture.

- There isn't any feature without purpose, there isn't really needless adornment.

- The Helix in turn adds the potential for weather protection, unique lighting opportunities and a damn unique user experience moving through it. It's like a space warp or something.

- All these functional moves add up also to something that is quite beautiful as well - which I think is his true brilliance.

As he said, structurally, this is one of his most demanding bridges ever, and I think those challenges, constraints and functional considerations ended up as a brilliant design. Colour me impressed, Calatrava is a master.
Take all this and write it as a letter to the Herald. Very well said Wooster.

I really like the 1 degree slope, it will be effortless on a bike or rollerblades to cross it. I can't wait to enter warp as I ride through it. Childhood Star Wars fantasies coming back!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #159  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 2:41 PM
Luk_o's Avatar
Luk_o Luk_o is offline
Traditional Ale User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ramsay,CGY
Posts: 446
Great design! I really like this bridge. Also, great write up Wooster - I agree entirely.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #160  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 2:57 PM
Wooster's Avatar
Wooster Wooster is offline
Round Head
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,688
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramsayfarian View Post
From what I've been read so far this evening on the internets, the ignorance and self-righteousness appears to go both ways. Unfortunately, once must be equipped with empathy to see it.
No doubt. A good chunk of people in general are pretty stupid, not matter what the angle of their opinion, particularly on newsmedia message boards.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Alberta & British Columbia > Calgary > Projects & Construction Updates
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:27 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.