Centennial Mills Redevelopment | Proposed

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by 2oh1

“I see this project becoming an iconic location like Pike’s Place in Seattle”

They're either crazy, stupid or snake oil salesmen. I love the concept of what they're trying to do here, but those unrealistic expectations do no one any good. Pike Place is in the center of downtown Seattle. Centennial Mills is in a deserted part of our city between the Broadway and Freemont bridges.

http://maps.google.com/maps?geocode=...,217.08,,0,5.3

How long do we think it'll be before the north end of the Pearl connects with this area in a meaningful way? I'm not just talking about a park connecting the two. I'm talking about the north end of the Pearl becoming an actual neighborhood. A decade? Without that, I don't think a market at Centennial Mills has a chance. In the meantime, who would go to a market at Centennial Mills and how would they get there?

If Centennial Mills was located somewhere near the Rose Quarter along the MAX line, I'd say it could really be a success. But on its own, with nothing around it except for maybe some future condo projects (Edge anyone?)... I don't see this project happening and I fear it's wasted effort.

It is only three blocks or so from the Streetcar. The land is fairly flat in that area of town, so it would be very easy to bike to and from. A couple large Pearl developments in between the streetcar stop and the Mill, it could help connect everything together.

I will say, this is in no way like Pike Place Market for the reason you stated...I would see this becoming more like Granville Island Public Market. That market sits on a island with limited connection to it, yet is still able to be a very successful market...also, that style of market would be very fitting for Portland.

[tworivers]

Oh... yeah, I kind of forgot about the streetcar line on the other side of the park. Basically, I am also skeptical that this plan will consistently draw enough people, particularly on bike or in the winter, to be successful. And you guys are right about the Pike's Place comparison. We tore down our waterfront public market building (way bigger than Seattle's) back in the 50's... big mistake.

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

It is only three blocks or so from the Streetcar. The land is fairly flat in that area of town, so it would be very easy to bike to and from.

Here's the nearest streetcar stop. Walk it in the googlemap and you'll see just how unrealistic it is to think that tourists and the sorts of people a market like this would need will walk it from there.

Three blocks takes you to 9th and Northrup, or 12th and Quimby. The walk is more like five. I know, that sounds like nitpicking, but it's not. And then factor in the train and Naito - or are they going to build a pedestrian bridge? I just don't think that's realistic.

Nearest Streetcar stop:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=e...53.71,,0,17.34

Centennial Mills:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=e...20.63,,0,-7.48

Originally Posted by urbanlife

A couple large Pearl developments in between the streetcar stop and the Mill, it could help connect everything together.

Like I said, what's an honest realistic timeline for a completion of that? 2020? Maybe? How are those Edge condos selling? In the meantime, wouldn't all of that construction serve as harm rather than help?

Originally Posted by urbanlife

I would see this becoming more like Granville Island Public Market. That market sits on a island with limited connection to it, yet is still able to be a very successful market...also, that style of market would be very fitting for Portland.

You could be right about that. I haven't been to that market. Where do people park? Does the Centennial Mills project include enough parking to support the market? If people aren't parking at Granville Island, then how do they get there... and, again, is that approach realistic for Centennial Mills?

I'm a million percent in favor of a market like this, and I'm equally in favor of the redevelopment of Centennial Mills. I'm just not at all convinced the two go together.

[urbanlife]

5 Portland blocks is still a short walk...that is what, maybe a 7 minute walk...maybe.

The intention with this is to make it into a destination location. It is a good location for something like this, there is land right around the Mill that could by used for parking for the building. And again, 5 blocks isnt that far in Portland...that is like saying people dont walk from downtown to the Pearl District.

[65MAX]

5 blocks is a 5 minute walk at 3 mph. (20 block = 1 mile)

Granville Island is far more isolated than Centennial Mills, virtually impossible to walk to and little if any public transit. There is a ferry across False Creek, but otherwise you have to drive.

[NJD]

Think about how this property will interact with the future urban layout; this project may become a catalyst to put the Pearl District Plan back in motion, or an altogether different development agenda may ensue from the Mills development in our current economic climate...


image from BOORA

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

5 Portland blocks is still a short walk...that is what, maybe a 7 minute walk...maybe.

I'm not saying it's a far walk at all. I'm saying this project keeps getting compared to successful tourist destinations, and I don't believe that is a realistic expectation.

Centennial Mills has no direct tourist friendly transit options. View that master plan image and you'll see it has no parking either. Add to that the fact that the north end of the Pearl is what, a decade from completion, assuming the housing market kicks in again with enough gusto to bring about new construction? In the meantime, it's foolish to even think tourists are going to walk through five blocks of a construction zone and deal with Amtrack trains and Naito too. It's just silly.

The key to tourism and retail is location location location. Without a completed north end of the Pearl, I don't believe Centennial Mills has any of the three. If the housing market were still in full boom and the north end of the Pearl had filled in the way the area around 11th & Couch did, I'd feel differently.

Like I said, I love this project. I just think the location will be a killer.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by 2oh1

I'm not saying it's a far walk at all. I'm saying this project keeps getting compared to successful tourist destinations, and I don't believe that is a realistic expectation.

Centennial Mills has no direct tourist friendly transit options. View that master plan image and you'll see it has no parking either. Add to that the fact that the north end of the Pearl is what, a decade from completion, assuming the housing market kicks in again with enough gusto to bring about new construction? In the meantime, it's foolish to even think tourists are going to walk through five blocks of a construction zone and deal with Amtrack trains and Naito too. It's just silly.

The key to tourism and retail is location location location. Without a completed north end of the Pearl, I don't believe Centennial Mills has any of the three. If the housing market were still in full boom and the north end of the Pearl had filled in the way the area around 11th & Couch did, I'd feel differently.

Like I said, I love this project. I just think the location will be a killer.

Therefore that is the reason to comparing it to Granville Island in Vancouver. It is a successful market that has the exact same, if not harder obstacles that it had to overcome to be a success. Would you rather see this idea being compared to failed ideas? The intention is to look at successful ideas and see what it is that makes them successful.

I personal feel you are thinking too small about Portland when it comes in terms of location. If this mill sat on the eastside industrial area, the complications would be just as hard even though its location might seem like a better spot at first.

Location is always important, but people seem to forget that location is what you make of it...and a project like this can be successful in this location if it is done correctly. There are currently plenty of people that show up to the saturday farmers market at PSU, that come from all over and mostly park along the streets...sure there are differences with this, but some of the transit stops are easily a walk, while the Mill would be more in the middle of those coming from the NW and downtown.

Of course there is challenges with making this work, but it is not far fetched to think that it is possible of being a success.

[bvpcvm]

I think 2oh1 is correct. I don't know Granville Market well, except that, unlike Centennial Mills, it's on the way from somewhere to somewhere else. OK, you have to detour a bit to get to it, but it's between residential areas and downtown. Centennial Mills is on the way to... what? Unless it's a strong enough development to attract visitors in its own right (which I think is unlikely), there will be no excuse to go there. Remember the story last year about Safeway in the Pearl doing so much more poorly than Whole Foods? Whole Foods is, for most Pearl residents, on the way to Powell's and downtown *and* it's still new enough to the Portland market that it's interesting (of course, its idiotic CEO has reduced its attractiveness for a lot of people). Safeway, on the other hand, is 1) boring and 2) on the way to nowhere. Multiple "attractors" reduce the "cost" of going to any one of them, because there's more than one thing to do if, for example, you change your mind or whatever. For Centennial Mills, the "cost" is pretty high unless there's something you're certain you want to do. Granville Market, even if it's a detour, is still pretty close to downtown and Broadway; there are plenty of other things to do nearby. So I don't have a lot of hope for Centennial Mills.

[2oh1]

D'oh!!! I kept referring to The Encore, which sits vacant at the north end of the Pearl, as The Edge! Sorry! I meant to say the Encore! Encore! Encore!

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

I think 2oh1 is correct. I don't know Granville Market well, except that, unlike Centennial Mills, it's on the way from somewhere to somewhere else. OK, you have to detour a bit to get to it, but it's between residential areas and downtown. Centennial Mills is on the way to... what? Unless it's a strong enough development to attract visitors in its own right (which I think is unlikely), there will be no excuse to go there. Remember the story last year about Safeway in the Pearl doing so much more poorly than Whole Foods? Whole Foods is, for most Pearl residents, on the way to Powell's and downtown *and* it's still new enough to the Portland market that it's interesting (of course, its idiotic CEO has reduced its attractiveness for a lot of people). Safeway, on the other hand, is 1) boring and 2) on the way to nowhere. Multiple "attractors" reduce the "cost" of going to any one of them, because there's more than one thing to do if, for example, you change your mind or whatever. For Centennial Mills, the "cost" is pretty high unless there's something you're certain you want to do. Granville Market, even if it's a detour, is still pretty close to downtown and Broadway; there are plenty of other things to do nearby. So I don't have a lot of hope for Centennial Mills.

What city are you talking about? Clearly it cant be Portland because you are referring to it as if it is some sprawling metropolis and these locations are in the middle of nowhere.

Safeway, on the streetcar line and in the middle of the NW district and the Pearl. Getting to Granville is a much bigger detour to and doesnt have a streetcar within a Portland 5 block walk.

I know you are trying to make a point with this, but you are pretending like Portland is this vast city that takes hours to get around downtown.

[bvpcvm]

Look, the market isn't you and me, it's 40 year-olds who have to be talked out of their SUVs. (Seriously, I've been stopped for directions downtown by some suburbanite oldsters, told them whatever they're looking for is "just maybe 5 blocks" and heard them comment to each other that they'd "better go find the car, we can't walk that far". For people like that, who, I would bet, make up a huge portion of the market, this area IS vast.

Regarding Safeway, do you think being on the streetcar really helps that much? I was thinking more of people on foot - if you live, say, on Glisan, and you can choose between the two, do you go to the one that is on teh way back from lots of interesting stuff (Powell's, all of downtown)? Or the one that has Chipotle next door? For me, at least, the streetcar is useful for going from, say NW to downtown or PSU. NW->Pearl, it's probably faster to just walk, rather than wait for it, and at that point its location on the streetcar doesn't mean so much. But maybe that's just me.

[bvpcvm]

article from neighborhoodnotes.com about the meeting

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

Look, the market isn't you and me, it's 40 year-olds who have to be talked out of their SUVs. (Seriously, I've been stopped for directions downtown by some suburbanite oldsters, told them whatever they're looking for is "just maybe 5 blocks" and heard them comment to each other that they'd "better go find the car, we can't walk that far". For people like that, who, I would bet, make up a huge portion of the market, this area IS vast.

Regarding Safeway, do you think being on the streetcar really helps that much? I was thinking more of people on foot - if you live, say, on Glisan, and you can choose between the two, do you go to the one that is on teh way back from lots of interesting stuff (Powell's, all of downtown)? Or the one that has Chipotle next door? For me, at least, the streetcar is useful for going from, say NW to downtown or PSU. NW->Pearl, it's probably faster to just walk, rather than wait for it, and at that point its location on the streetcar doesn't mean so much. But maybe that's just me.

Both of these statements are purely subjective...I am pretty sure the type of people that they are looking to go to this are the same people that go to the Saturday Market and the Farmers Market, which both get a large collection of different types of people. The "suburban SUV crowd" isnt the only type of people that live in this city.

So far it sounds like your reasoning for this project is that it shouldnt be built because it is in the middle of nowhere and leads to no where, and there is no where for the suburbanites to park their SUVs.


As for grocery stores, there is the Safeway, Whole Foods, Fred Meyers, and a number of co-ops...so where does it say that is wrong to not have options when it comes to grocery stores? Should the entire northwest only have one?

[bvpcvm]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

Both of these statements are purely subjective...I am pretty sure the type of people that they are looking to go to this are the same people that go to the Saturday Market and the Farmers Market, which both get a large collection of different types of people. The "suburban SUV crowd" isnt the only type of people that live in this city.

So far it sounds like your reasoning for this project is that it shouldnt be built because it is in the middle of nowhere and leads to no where, and there is no where for the suburbanites to park their SUVs.


As for grocery stores, there is the Safeway, Whole Foods, Fred Meyers, and a number of co-ops...so where does it say that is wrong to not have options when it comes to grocery stores? Should the entire northwest only have one?

You're taking what I'm saying way too literally. First of all, no, I never suggested that fewer options == better, my point was simply that you can explain Safeway's lack of success by the fact that it's at the wrong end of the Pearl.

I also never suggested that Centennial Mills shouldn't be built at all, just that to me it looks like it faces some challenges, among which is the fact that it too is at the wrong end of the Pearl and will have to be pretty strong on its own, since there's nothing around it to give people a secondary excuse to go that way.

Finally, look, regarding SUV's and frightened suburbanites, Portland is great, full of hipster bike riders etc, etc, but past 82nd that all comes to a halt. Beyond, it's a vast, desolate suburbia no different from anywhere else. Luckily, living close to downtown, I can ignore that, for the most part; the developers of Centennial Mills, though, probably can't. Saturday Market and the farmers' market (you mean the one at PSU, right?) are directly served by MAX and Streetcar; Centennial Mills is near the Streetcar, but distant enough that - my opinion - there will be challenges.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

You're taking what I'm saying way too literally. First of all, no, I never suggested that fewer options == better, my point was simply that you can explain Safeway's lack of success by the fact that it's at the wrong end of the Pearl.

I also never suggested that Centennial Mills shouldn't be built at all, just that to me it looks like it faces some challenges, among which is the fact that it too is at the wrong end of the Pearl and will have to be pretty strong on its own, since there's nothing around it to give people a secondary excuse to go that way.

Finally, look, regarding SUV's and frightened suburbanites, Portland is great, full of hipster bike riders etc, etc, but past 82nd that all comes to a halt. Beyond, it's a vast, desolate suburbia no different from anywhere else. Luckily, living close to downtown, I can ignore that, for the most part; the developers of Centennial Mills, though, probably can't. Saturday Market and the farmers' market (you mean the one at PSU, right?) are directly served by MAX and Streetcar; Centennial Mills is near the Streetcar, but distant enough that - my opinion - there will be challenges.

Safeway's issue seems to have more to do with the fact that it sits in an area that was overbuilt and has yet to fill up...I think it is hard to believe that so many units around that Safeway would choose to walk all the way down to Whole Foods to pay more for their groceries. Those who do are usually not that bright or make enough money to where that isnt an issue. Safeway will be fine in that location giving it time.


Again, most suburban people come to Saturday Market and the Farmers Market (the one by PSU) by car...I know this because I live and work by both of these markets and (purely subjective) see the number of people that drive in to these things by the lack of available street parking each area. So it isnt far fetched to say these same people that drive in to go to these things would drive to the Centennial Mills.

Also, as I said before, there is alot of different types of people that go to these things and developers do not need to build to just one type (the suburbia people), if that were the case, then you would have to be in support of more parking garages and parking lots downtown so that suburban people have places to park, but the city has proven it functions better catering to a more urban lifestyle. The Centennial Mills is still apart of greater downtown, therefore it does not need to be built with a suburban mindset in order to attract people to it. Having the focus of the building to be local products is what would make this a unique thing to go to...also, if you are suggesting that this needs to be attractive to the suburban market, why not put an Applebee's or a Chevy's in it, that would obviously attract people from the suburbs.

What has been bothering me about your comments is that you sound as if this Mill is way out on 82nd, there for it should cater to that crowd....but in actuality it is still in the boundaries of downtown, in a city that actually has a very small downtown that shouldnt be wasted on suburban developments.

[tworivers]

full of hipster bike riders

Watch it buddy.

[dkealoha]

How is Safeway a failure? I go to the Safeway in the Pearl multiple times a week and it's always busy. In fact, I even go out of my way to go to the Pearl Safeway rather than the downtown one sometimes! I mean, count the number of (mostly full) buildings within 4 blocks of there. Edge Lofts, Crane Lofts, Avenue Lofts, Wyatt, Asa, Bridgeport, Streetcar, Sitka, Pinnacle, Lexis, Lovejoy Station, Metropolitan, Burlington, Park Place, Kearney Plaza, Riverstone... need I go on? I don't think Safeway is in any way in "the wrong side" of the Pearl. In fact, I'd even say there are MORE residential units closer to Safeway than Whole Foods. Also, personally, I try to avoid the tourist trap that is Powells and there's no way I'd chose to go to Whole Foods because of its proximity to it. Plus, if we're talking about frightened suburban driving suburbanites, the Brewery Blocks are the biggest cluster to drive/walk around out of anywhere in the Pearl. It's much easier to park at Safeway...

But, I digress... What are we talking about? Centennial Mills? :-)

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by dkealoha

How is Safeway a failure?

From what I've been told, the store isn't doing well. It's far underperforming based on the original expectations. Again, that's just what I've been told, but it's not surprising at all if you think about where the store is and what's around it. More people probably live closer to Whole Foods than the new Safeway, which explains why Whole Foods is always packed and the new Safeway isn't.

Back in 2004, there was so much talk about the Pearl expanding north until it hit the river and the new Safeway would end up in the middle of it all. Clearly, that didn't happen and we all know why. Go to the Sitka and look north. Yikes. Of course, this is probably just a temporary situation. I'm sure the Pearl will eventually fill in, fill up and roll north. Until then, we have the unsold Encore as an overbuilding boogeyman. How's the Waterfront Pearl selling? And what about all of the unbuilt projects?

The north end of the Pearl will eventually happen. Opportunities there are huge and Portland's population is going to continue to rise in a big way. The north end of the Pearl will happen, but it won't happen soon. I fear that if a market is built at Centennial Mills before the north end of the Pearl is ready for it, the market will be a failure, and that's bad for anyone who really wants to see that part of town thrive.

I'm not against a new market at all. I'm just against its failure due to poor planning. A new market at Centennial Mills before the rest of that area is ready? To me, that's poor planning.

Also, the last thing I want to see over there is a frigging sea of blacktop parking lots for all of the tourists and everyone else it'll require for this market to be a success.

[dkealoha]

Originally Posted by 2oh1

...it's not surprising at all if you think about where the store is and what's around it. More people probably live closer to Whole Foods than the new Safeway, which explains why Whole Foods is always packed and the new Safeway isn't.

Not to sound like a broken record but...

Originally Posted by dkealoha

...count the number of (mostly full) buildings within 4 blocks of there. Edge Lofts, Crane Lofts, Avenue Lofts, Wyatt, Asa, Bridgeport, Streetcar, Sitka, Pinnacle, Lexis, Lovejoy Station, Metropolitan, Burlington, Park Place, Kearney Plaza, Riverstone... need I go on? I don't think Safeway is in any way in "the wrong side" of the Pearl. In fact, I'd even say there are MORE residential units closer to Safeway than Whole Foods.