HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum
     
Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > Buildings & Architecture

    Pearl River Tower in the SkyscraperPage Database

Building Data Page   • Comparison Diagram   • Guangzhou Skyscraper Diagram

Map Location

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #1  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2011, 11:51 PM
Troubadour's Avatar
Troubadour Troubadour is offline
Seek The Upward Horizon
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 544
Let's build a theoretical building, from start to finish.

I would like to have a lengthy, methodical, substantive discussion on the development process that illuminates how things are done from the very beginning to the very end. So I call upon those with experience in field (or at least vicarious knowledge thereof) to tell me, as their first post in this thread, the very first step in the process, and then we will move from there. I want this thread to, in essence, become a theoretical progression of steps through the entire process of development. But again, the very next post should examine the very first step.

Try to think as methodically and practically as possible. E.g., if in later steps you're going to talk about obtaining permits, don't just say "Get the permits." Advise us what bodies to contact in seeking what permits. Do not assume that anything is obvious or given, because there may be variabilities you're not considering. But that is not the first step, so think as basically as possible.

The working title of this project is Theoretical Tower. We don't know anything more than that yet. Further details will arise from our process of discussion. Now let's hear from folks about Step 1. I'll be the "pace setter" and determine when each step has been sufficiently discussed to ask about the next one. Please don't move ahead of Step 1 until I ask - I want everyone to move at the same pace so that we develop a clear consensus picture as we move along.

This thread should turn into a helpful and thought-provoking intellectual guide for people interested in the development process, and perhaps studying in related fields. Begin. Step One:
__________________
Build until the sky is black, and then build some more.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2011, 11:54 PM
plinko's Avatar
plinko plinko is offline
them bones
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Santa Barbara adjacent
Posts: 6,911
Great idea for a thread.

Step One: Where is your site?
__________________
Even if you are 1 in a million, there are still 7,000 people just like you...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2011, 12:33 AM
urbanlife's Avatar
urbanlife urbanlife is offline
A before E
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Milwaukie, Oregon
Posts: 11,053
This is called architecture school, I did this for several years in school. It is very fun, but basically the same thing you are suggesting here.

But the first steps would be in school, where is your site and what is your program. From there, experiments are done to connect the building to something philosophical in context with what is being built and the connection to the human body and the connection to the site. Then when things become more specific beyond gestural work, then there is requirements for what is needed within the program, how much space roughly is needed for everything that the building must provide. If this is something that is going to comply with zoning regulations and such, then that is taking into consideration of what can be built with zoning laws and how the building fits within them. During this process, there is technical drawings that are made to document how the structure is supported and how the building carries its loads. Once this is all completed, then it is technically ready to build, obviously once it passes all the required permits and approvals from various boards.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2011, 12:35 AM
Troubadour's Avatar
Troubadour Troubadour is offline
Seek The Upward Horizon
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 544
Quote:
Originally Posted by plinko View Post
Great idea for a thread.

Step One: Where is your site?
What criteria are we using to choose a site?
__________________
Build until the sky is black, and then build some more.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2011, 12:39 AM
urbanlife's Avatar
urbanlife urbanlife is offline
A before E
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Milwaukie, Oregon
Posts: 11,053
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
What criteria are we using to choose a site?
It depends, it is your thread, what criteria do you want?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2011, 12:57 AM
Troubadour's Avatar
Troubadour Troubadour is offline
Seek The Upward Horizon
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 544
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife View Post
It depends, it is your thread, what criteria do you want?
All we know about Theoretical Tower so far is that it's going to be at least highrise, but may be a supertall. What site criteria would that imply?
__________________
Build until the sky is black, and then build some more.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2011, 1:20 AM
urbanlife's Avatar
urbanlife urbanlife is offline
A before E
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Milwaukie, Oregon
Posts: 11,053
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
All we know about Theoretical Tower so far is that it's going to be at least highrise, but may be a supertall. What site criteria would that imply?
Office? Residential? Mixed? Mix of what? Is this something to provide a community use to the site or is it something that is more of a private development?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2011, 1:36 AM
Troubadour's Avatar
Troubadour Troubadour is offline
Seek The Upward Horizon
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 544
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife View Post
Office? Residential? Mixed? Mix of what? Is this something to provide a community use to the site or is it something that is more of a private development?
I'll go with office.
__________________
Build until the sky is black, and then build some more.

Last edited by Troubadour; Jun 19, 2011 at 1:48 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2011, 1:37 AM
Rizzo Rizzo is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 6,898
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife View Post
This is called architecture school
No it is not!!!

No,no,no, no

There's so much more, even if we leave the financing and permitting/approvals out.

There's code research, product and materials research, engineering that ranges from civil, structural, mechanical, electrical and telecom.

Seriously, the stuff I've learned (and many other people) compromises about 5% of the stuff you'll do in the real world. There's no intensified study of functional and appealing spaces until you get into the profession. The drawing details are far more advanced. Basically...architecture school is the "schematic design" phase of a project. Some schools will occasionally have you draw some detailed wall sections, but they rarely reach the level of complexity you'd experience working for a firm.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #10  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2011, 1:46 AM
urbanlife's Avatar
urbanlife urbanlife is offline
A before E
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Milwaukie, Oregon
Posts: 11,053
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayward View Post
No it is not!!!

No,no,no, no

There's so much more, even if we leave the financing and permitting/approvals out.

There's code research, product and materials research, engineering that ranges from civil, structural, mechanical, electrical and telecom.

Seriously, the stuff I've learned (and many other people) compromises about 5% of the stuff you'll do in the real world. There's no intensified study of functional and appealing spaces until you get into the profession. The drawing details are far more advanced. Basically...architecture school is the "schematic design" phase of a project. Some schools will occasionally have you draw some detailed wall sections, but they rarely reach the level of complexity you'd experience working for a firm.
The title is called "theoretical building" therefore it would be like architecture school cause I designed a number of theoretical buildings. It doesn't sound like he is wanting to do anything that involves the true level of detail that you do at a firm.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2011, 1:47 AM
Jasoncw's Avatar
Jasoncw Jasoncw is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Detroit, Michigan
Posts: 354
First you need a client. The client will put out an RFP (a request for proposal), and architecture firms will respond by putting together a proposal. I don't know exactly how much design work goes into this stage. A lot of the proposal will actually be information about similar projects that the firm has done, and other information about the firm that may not be specific to that project but will make the architecture firm. This might take the form of a book/binder, or a powerpoint presentation. Putting these things together takes a lot of time and time is money, so architecture firms are careful about what kind of jobs they seek out.

Another way of getting a client is from them coming to you because they like your work specifically. For example, Mies van der Rohe got to design the Seagram Building because the CEO's daughter was into architecture (someone involved in the decision making is a patron of the arts). Or through social circles (someone's brother's friend's uncle is an architect) or through direct schmoozing (belonging to clubs where a lot of decision makers are). I don't think this is ever really the way the skyscrapers are done, but houses are done this way more often. Clients may also come to the architect if they chose them through the RFP process, liked their work, and are building something new, they might just hire them right away.

Another way is through competitions, but I think this is rare and it's mostly done for high profile projects. I think there are smaller competitions, but firms mostly enter them for fun/keep people sharper, or to increase their reputation. In some parts of Europe though, certain kinds of public buildings like schools are always done through competitions.


The client will usually come with a site. If the client is a patron of the arts and has a lot of control in the organization and is very personally involved in the project, the architect might be able to influence the site selection, but I think this is pretty rare. If the client is doing residential projects, they have a bunch of criteria to determine what quality, price, quantity, etc. units certain areas can handle, and they'll also figure out their budget and profit margins and that kind of stuff. So they already have figured out all that stuff. Speculative office projects are similar. HQs and some other types might not have as many equations to figure it out with, but they know where they want to locate and how much money they want to spend on it.


So for a skyscraper, after getting the job, the architecture firm will have whatever budget and however many square feet of office space that needs to be done. Making the skyscraper taller might mean making it thinner and more expensive, while possibly making each floor undesirably small. The architect can't choose to double how much office space is provided, or make it twice as expensive to accommodate a certain design they've been thinking about.


btw I'm not an architect, so anybody feel free to correct me.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2011, 3:59 AM
TANGELD_SLC's Avatar
TANGELD_SLC TANGELD_SLC is offline
The World Is Welcome Here
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: SL,UT
Posts: 884
My name is Gold Bigmoney. I am the founder and CEO of a Fortune 500 company with a personal wealth of $5.6 billion USD. I want to build a new global headquarters for my corporation and am willing to front up to $2.5bil of my own money to finance the project. I need approximately 1.5 million square feet of office space. I also would like to throw in some condos, a bit of retail and a 4-star hotel to accommodate travelling business partners.
I am proposing that you, a world-class architecture firm, design and build this mixed-use tower for me.

I have a very big ego and very deep pockets, so the taller the better.

Let's go
__________________
Espavo!

Plyg, Metrosexual, & AVENian
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2011, 4:51 AM
Troubadour's Avatar
Troubadour Troubadour is offline
Seek The Upward Horizon
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 544
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayward View Post
No it is not!!!

No,no,no, no

There's so much more, even if we leave the financing and permitting/approvals out.

There's code research, product and materials research, engineering that ranges from civil, structural, mechanical, electrical and telecom.
We should take that into acount, but that sounds like a later step in the process - or at least, not the very first step.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasoncw View Post
First you need a client. The client will put out an RFP (a request for proposal), and architecture firms will respond by putting together a proposal
Quote:
Originally Posted by TANGELD_SLC View Post
My name is Gold Bigmoney. I am the founder and CEO of a Fortune 500 company with a personal wealth of $5.6 billion USD. I want to build a new global headquarters for my corporation and am willing to front up to $2.5bil of my own money to finance the project. I need approximately 1.5 million square feet of office space. I also would like to throw in some condos, a bit of retail and a 4-star hotel to accommodate travelling business partners.
I am proposing that you, a world-class architecture firm, design and build this mixed-use tower for me.

I have a very big ego and very deep pockets, so the taller the better.

Let's go
Now I feel like we're getting close to articulating Step One. We're doing this from the perspective of the creative and construction side, so let's say we're the architects, engineers, and building contractors, as their roles progressively become central.

But we're not quite yet at the truly first step. What must be done in the process of Theoretical Architects Inc. putting together a proposal for Gold Bigmoney's RFP? (BTW, is "Gold Bigmoney" a standard scenario name in architecture, like "widget" in business?)
__________________
Build until the sky is black, and then build some more.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2011, 4:53 AM
Roadcruiser1's Avatar
Roadcruiser1 Roadcruiser1 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: New York City
Posts: 2,106
Alright let's get serious. Let's pretend the Client is in, the land is zoned for mix use, the zoned land can't have a building taller then 2,000 feet in height, and that the location of land is a large section of empty land located in Midtown Manhattan. So now that this had happened we need to create the design, and the basic statistics of this building. Basically how tall is this building going to be? How wide would it be? What is the total amount of square feet for this building? How many blocks would it take up? How would the interior floor sections be divided up (rooms, cubicles, core, structure, and etc)? What would the materials used for the construction of the building? What would this building look like to a viewers eye, and would it be approved by a committee?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2011, 5:00 AM
Troubadour's Avatar
Troubadour Troubadour is offline
Seek The Upward Horizon
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 544
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadcruiser1 View Post
Alright let's get serious. Let's pretend the Client is in
Does an issuance of an RFP necessarily mean they're in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadcruiser1 View Post
the land is zoned for mix use
Do we know that yet? How do we know that? What if the zoning needs to be changed to fit the project?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadcruiser1 View Post
the zoned land can't have a building taller then 2,000 feet in height
A moot point, but don't say that like it's a known fact - no one's ever tried to work with the FAA to build something higher.
__________________
Build until the sky is black, and then build some more.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #16  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2011, 5:43 AM
CGII's Avatar
CGII CGII is offline
illwaukee/crooklyn
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: rome
Posts: 8,518
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
This thread should turn into a helpful and thought-provoking intellectual guide for people interested in the development process, and perhaps studying in related fields. Begin. Step One:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TANGLED_SLC
My name is Gold Bigmoney. I am the founder and CEO of a Fortune 500 company with a personal wealth of $5.6 billion USD. I want to build a new global headquarters for my corporation and am willing to front up to $2.5bil of my own money to finance the project. I need approximately 1.5 million square feet of office space. I also would like to throw in some condos, a bit of retail and a 4-star hotel to accommodate travelling business partners.
I am proposing that you, a world-class architecture firm, design and build this mixed-use tower for me.

I have a very big ego and very deep pockets, so the taller the better.

Let's go
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troubador
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadcruiser
the zoned land can't have a building taller then 2,000 feet in height
A moot point, but don't say that like it's a known fact - no one's ever tried to work with the FAA to build something higher.
Wow, a building with a 2,500,000,000 dollar budget and [illegally] unlimited height. It's like I'm caught in a hurricane of learning!
__________________
disregard women. acquire finances.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2011, 6:28 AM
urbanlife's Avatar
urbanlife urbanlife is offline
A before E
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Milwaukie, Oregon
Posts: 11,053
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
A moot point, but don't say that like it's a known fact - no one's ever tried to work with the FAA to build something higher.
I have seen the FAA shoot down a lot of things and force plenty of buildings to be shorter...so I would say if this is something that would theoretically happen in the US, then you might as well consider it to be 2000ft, unless otherwise noted depending on where you site is. Which in some cases could be shorter.

Also another effect on height limits are with the city themselves. There could be a height limit for that area of the site or their could be a height limit based on FAR (Floor Air Ratio) that many cities use.

So there is more limitations to height of a building than just the FAA.

Last edited by urbanlife; Jun 19, 2011 at 6:36 AM. Reason: typo found
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #18  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2011, 6:34 AM
mhays mhays is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 17,439
The real first step is far before an architect RFP. Someone owns some land (or has an option on it), and they decide to look into doing something with it. If they're a developer or a corporation with a facility group, they probably understand zoning, real estate dynamics, and finance well enough to brainstorm and come up with some ideas.

With a developer (one who's survived their first couple projects), one of their core skillsets is to find properties with good prices vs. development potential, and also figure out the sweet spot for a given property -- the highest revenue potential with the least risk at the lowest cost. In a city with restrictive zoning like mine, step one is figuring out how to maximize square footage and saleable/leasable value under the height and floor air ratio (FAR) limits. Detailed understanding of standard and local codes is a big factor, such as setbacks, parking requirements/limits, the various metrics that trigger higher costs due to code, physics, or marketability (for example, go above a certain height and fire code gets more intense, plus the building needs to be stronger, plus tenants like to have more elevator service).

You generally hire the architect before the contractor, but that's less necessary if you have code/concept expertise in-house. Either way, with anything more complicated than a strip mall, you generally want your contractor on board starting in early or mid design, hired based on qualifications, business terms, and general likeability. They'll bring a much better understanding of price, help the architect and engineers think through constructability issues and material options during design, and ask clarification questions in advance. Alternatively, the low-bid method, where the contractor is hired just before construction starts, means the bid price will be a surprise (possibly solved by cutting scope at the end), clarifications will be during construction or as it's starting, and the design might be more expensive than necessary. (I admit bias as a contractor.)

Design takes a loong time. The process depends on how the local jurisdiction approves land use permits (these pertain to zoning or the "right to build", and are very different from building permits, which pertain to specific code compliance). Land Use Permits in my city require major projects to go through design review recommendations, which typically overlap the actual land use application and approval process. Your design will change with design review comments and as the City confirms your interpretation of code. It's best not to design too much until the basic concept is approved, because you don't want to waste that money and effort.

Design stages are typically concept, schematic, design development, construction document, and shop drawing in that order. Each is dramatically more detailed than the one before. Somewhere around schematic the various engineering disciplines are hired, mostly reporting to the architect. Shop drawings are by the contractor and its subcontractors, approved by the archtitect and engineers.

Team formats can vary dramatically. With either option I discussed above, the architect and contractor each report to the owner. Design-build is common (particularly in states with certain tax laws), with the owner hiring a single team, usually with the contractor in charge because they can bond much larger amounts than architects. Integrated Project Delivery (IPD) is a fairly new way of integrating the whole team much more closely and going beyond the typical design phases... avoiding that tangent for now.

One basic point many people forget is that nothing is certain until it happens. If you see a rendering (not a god damn "render", a verb) in the paper for something that will start in a year, even is land use and building permits are easy in your city, the owner has only a vague idea about cost, and neither they nor their lenders are sure about going forward. A lot of people mistake that point about lenders....a lender joining the team is roughly equal to a mortgage firm giving you a letter saying you're probably ok to buy something at a given price...they've done minimal homework so far, and the real decision comes just before the loan is signed. Also, commercial real estate usually depends on multiple loans, including on the equity side, where you or a partner firm provide essentially a down payment.

So many aspects of this. I've only touched the surface...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2011, 7:12 AM
THE BIG APPLE's Avatar
THE BIG APPLE THE BIG APPLE is offline
Khurram Parvaz
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: NEW YORK
Posts: 2,424
I already have over 55 buildings that I designed my self on sketchup that I have saved on my computer. They have never been seen or done before ever but I was inspired on some of them. Since I'm an old school type of guy most of them are classical buildings and some modern. Now on to the interesting part; I think all of you are great people and no offense but I really don't want my work to get stolen if I share.
__________________
One man with courage is a majority - Thomas Jefferson
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #20  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2011, 9:43 AM
Rizzo Rizzo is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 6,898
Okay, I went out to the bar without finishing my post. Basically Jasoncw provides the gist. Here's what I meant to post earlier


I guess to get the discussion going, here's pretty much the very first step

A Request for Proposal or Request for Qualifications is sent out by the client, or perhaps someone working for the client. Let's just say developer in this case.

The RFP and RFQ helps test the waters for what firms may have the experience as well as good design talents. Sometimes dozens of firms will participate. After a certain date, firms will be shortlisted which may require them to submit some more info, and then a decision is made.

The RFQ relies heavily on a firm's marketing staff...or if it's a small firm, the architects that work for it will put together materials to show their past experience. Some of those projects included may be the work of the firm competing or perhaps each individual architect's past experience. They'll also provide an organizational chart and timelines.

The RFP is more work. Architects will develop some diagrammatic images and renderings of what the project may look like. Sometimes a simple floor plan and elevation drawings. If the site is confidential, they may not even know where it is and have to conceptualize how the building may look based off provided square footage estimates.

The materials are packaged up, sent to the client and you wait for a decision. If your firm is chosen, you'll have a kick-off meeting to decide schedules, official costs, and some specifics about the site.

I'm going to stop here since I'm tired and need to go to bed.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts

Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > Buildings & Architecture
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 9:48 PM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.