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  #201  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2019, 1:17 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by dougvdh View Post
There's no business case for building any sort of parking that leases for $35/month.

Parking structures would run (at minimum) in the range of $50,000 a space. To finance and maintain that over 25 years would require each space turn over something like $250/month.
Not sure where you're getting your numbers. But if it costs $50 000 a spot to build parking structures, there wouldn't be any in all but downtown Toronto and Vancouver. Most articles I found on Google said somewhere around $20 000. Assuming some currency conversion, let's say $25 000. So about $140/month over 25 years in capital costs. Maintenance is probably somewhere in the ballpark of $10-20 per month.

Next, nobody said they'd be paying $35 forever. If a parking structure was built, charging $150/month would be justifiable and in line with what other DND campuses with parking structures charge.
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  #202  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2019, 1:29 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by caveat.doctor View Post
This seems to be as ideal a case for OC Transpo as any for improving service and capturing the Carling commuter market: there’s a known customer base, a known scarcity in parking, and existing infrastructure (Transitway/highway up to Moodie, and the stops at Carling) all already set up.



As well, for the immediate short term, OC Transpo should at least maintain the existing service so current transit users don’t add to the parking crunch.
When DND and OC Transpo say they've been working on a plan, I want to know what the f**k they've been doing for almost a decade and how come they have a sudden scramble now? Doesn't seem to me at all that any transit plan to serve this area has actually been developed.

Between Carling Campus, Shirley's Bay, and Connaught, there will be 15 000+ military and civilian personnel in this area. Why the hell have they not developed an actual transport strategy for this area on both the city and DND side? People deserve to lose their jobs over this level of incompetence.
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  #203  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2019, 1:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Between Carling Campus, Shirley's Bay, and Connaught, there will be 15 000+ military and civilian personnel in this area. Why the hell have they not developed an actual transport strategy for this area on both the city and DND side? People deserve to lose their jobs over this level of incompetence.
This is why the Moodie station should have been replaced by a stop on the DND campus or within walking distance of it. The route could curve back to the original alignment to reach Terry Fox. Why would anyone give up direct service for a good % of 15k riders for a station in the middle of a field? Moodie will likely continue to be in the middle of a field for a long time to come. We continually pass up areas that have high ridership levels to begin with and high probability of increasing ridership just like routing the LRT along the parkway instead of running it under Churchill or Kirkwood to Carling and Lincoln Fields.
We need to make sure that there is ridership at all hours of the day, not just at rush hour to shuttle the suburbanites to their jobs and back. Unfortunately both of these ships have sailed.
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  #204  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2019, 1:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Not sure where you're getting your numbers. But if it costs $50 000 a spot to build parking structures, there wouldn't be any in all but downtown Toronto and Vancouver. Most articles I found on Google said somewhere around $20 000. Assuming some currency conversion, let's say $25 000. So about $140/month over 25 years in capital costs. Maintenance is probably somewhere in the ballpark of $10-20 per month.

Next, nobody said they'd be paying $35 forever. If a parking structure was built, charging $150/month would be justifiable and in line with what other DND campuses with parking structures charge.
Why would you need to build a concrete multi-level parking structure in an area with so much open land, anyway?

I realize there is the security perimeter (blablabla) issue but surely the security perimeter can be expanded and secured much more easily than all the work required to build a new structure from scratch.
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  #205  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2019, 3:01 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Why would you need to build a concrete multi-level parking structure in an area with so much open land, anyway?

I realize there is the security perimeter (blablabla) issue but surely the security perimeter can be expanded and secured much more easily than all the work required to build a new structure from scratch.
Nobody says there has to be parking structures. Build them if necessary. I was under the impression though that some of the land was sensitive to build on. But if that's not an issue, they certainly can pave over to build more spots.

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This is why the Moodie station should have been replaced by a stop on the DND campus or within walking distance of it. The route could curve back to the original alignment to reach Terry Fox. Why would anyone give up direct service for a good % of 15k riders for a station in the middle of a field?
To be fair, Shirley's Bay campus and Connaught ranges wouldn't be walking distance from Carling. Moodie works just fine if there's solid regular bus service from there that services all three locations. 5 min headway at rush and 10 mins all-day so nobody is left standing for long at Moodie. That probably wouldn't take more than 10-12 buses dedicated to a loop to pull off. And DND could help pay for those buses.
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  #206  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2019, 3:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post


Most DND employees who bus buy passes. OC Transpo should help transport them to where they want to go. And DND should offer whatever it takes to help make OC Transpo's business case since their lack of planning is what created this mess.
I was going to say that ultimately it's the job of transit providers anywhere to offer adapted services to paying customers where there is sufficient demand for them.
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  #207  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2019, 6:11 PM
bradnixon bradnixon is offline
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Originally Posted by caveat.doctor View Post
The 101 and 103 will be cancelled once the C-Line opens, which will eliminate the only Queensway crosstown route. There’s a partial replacement with the 55, but only between Bayshore and Lees (from Lees the 55 goes down Main and Smythe). I take the 101/103 as well, but now there’s a gap between Carling and Bayshore. It’s not so much that my commute will at least double (though that’s bad), but that it will be unreliable with 2 transfers - double to almost triple in worst case because the buses are so infrequent. I’ll actually have to switch to driving because of daycare dropoffs/pickups before/after work.

Without the direct 103 from Orleans to Moodie there will be more transfers, but will it be slower?

According to the existing schedule, it is 49 minutes from Blair to Bayshore on the 103.

The Confederation Line is supposed to be <25 minutes from Blair to Tunney's, and the 66 shows 15 minutes from Tunney's to Bayshore. That is <40 minutes, plus an extra few minutes to allow for transfers.

You will benefit from the consistent travel time of the Confederation Line and the Transitway routing of the 66. I would think it would be a similar travel time and probably more reliable.
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  #208  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2019, 6:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I was going to say that ultimately it's the job of transit providers anywhere to offer adapted services to paying customers where there is sufficient demand for them.
What if there is demand but the cost of providing those services is extremely high?

The transit budget is only so big, so OC Transpo should provide service is the most efficient manner possible. If you have an extremely expensive service where the riders are paying the same price as everyone else, then that service is stealing resources from the rest of the system.
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  #209  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2019, 7:00 PM
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Originally Posted by bradnixon View Post
What if there is demand but the cost of providing those services is extremely high?

The transit budget is only so big, so OC Transpo should provide service is the most efficient manner possible. If you have an extremely expensive service where the riders are paying the same price as everyone else, then that service is stealing resources from the rest of the system.
If you look at OC Transpo's entire operations, there is no way that various direct peak-period routes from the eastern southern, southwestern and western parts of Ottawa to/from DND-Moodie would be the biggest money-losers on their balance sheet. No way.

We're talking about a company that runs rinky-dink weeknight local bus routes through low-density parts of Orleans, Kanata and Barrhaven on half-hour frequencies until almost midnight, often for only 2-3 passengers on each run.
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  #210  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2019, 8:11 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Ideally, DND could have provided the capital to buy a dozen buses, and asked OC Transpo to provide shuttles from key collection points throughout the city during construction, followed by fewer Eastern shuttles after Stage 1 and no Eastern, Southern or Northern shuttles after Stage 2, moving those buses to serve the area from Moodie. But a dozen buses now and they last all the way through that transition. The transit passes that all those DND employees pay for should more than cover operating costs.
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  #211  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2019, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by bradnixon View Post
Without the direct 103 from Orleans to Moodie there will be more transfers, but will it be slower?

According to the existing schedule, it is 49 minutes from Blair to Bayshore on the 103.

The Confederation Line is supposed to be <25 minutes from Blair to Tunney's, and the 66 shows 15 minutes from Tunney's to Bayshore. That is <40 minutes, plus an extra few minutes to allow for transfers.

You will benefit from the consistent travel time of the Confederation Line and the Transitway routing of the 66. I would think it would be a similar travel time and probably more reliable.
To be fair, those who will have easy access to the C-Line very well might have more reliable and similar travel times to now, especially as the 101/103 does run locally between Kirkwood and Lees. Me and my colleagues who are losing out with the end of the 101/103 are mostly those whose trips won't involve the train at all, e.g., having now to bus to/from to the Transitway to use the 66, coming from areas like Civic Hospital, Carlington, etc and south.

As well, going home (~3 pm as most people start early) the 66 will be running only every 30 min from Carling, whereas with the 101 and 103 combined there's 7 trips every hour during the afternoon rush. (The 66 does peak at 5 trips/hour starting at 5 pm, too late in the day.) That loss of frequency on the way home is where risks to other commitments really make driving necessary.

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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Moodie works just fine if there's solid regular bus service from there that services all three locations. 5 min headway at rush and 10 mins all-day so nobody is left standing for long at Moodie. That probably wouldn't take more than 10-12 buses dedicated to a loop to pull off. And DND could help pay for those buses.
Something like route 54 that runs through the Tunney's Pasture complex would probably work. (Is that funded by the departments at Tunney's?) Instead of running as late as 10 pm as the 54, it could stick to the usual 6 am - 5 pm range every 5-10 minutes, and that would do.
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  #212  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2019, 2:06 AM
bradnixon bradnixon is offline
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Originally Posted by caveat.doctor View Post
As well, going home (~3 pm as most people start early) the 66 will be running only every 30 min from Carling, whereas with the 101 and 103 combined there's 7 trips every hour during the afternoon rush. (The 66 does peak at 5 trips/hour starting at 5 pm, too late in the day.) That loss of frequency on the way home is where risks to other commitments really make driving necessary.
Agreed, the frequency of the 66 should be more comparable to the current service. Pretty inexcusable that frequency would be cut when LRT opens.
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  #213  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2019, 1:17 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by caveat.doctor View Post
Something like route 54 that runs through the Tunney's Pasture complex would probably work. (Is that funded by the departments at Tunney's?)
No it isn't. OC Transpo is expected to service high ridership routes. And these workplaces probably have higher ridership than most of our suburban routes. I don't see why it would be any different here. With over 15 000 personnel in the area after the new ops centre is built (over 10 000 after Carling is fully up in 2020), even a 20% modal share in 2020, means over a thousand riders an hour arriving at peak. Increase the modal share to 30% and look at the higher population after the ops centre is built, and you're looking at well over 2000 riders per hour at peak by the middle of the next decade.

The real issue is that Moodie station is over a half decade away. In the interim, ridership is too low and too diffuse to effectively plan express shuttles. That's where some extra funding from DND would help. Heck, lots of buses being freed up by Stage 1. Just fund the operations of a dozen double decker buses that would be used for shuttles from major collection points.
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  #214  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2019, 9:52 PM
dougvdh dougvdh is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Not sure where you're getting your numbers. But if it costs $50 000 a spot to build parking structures, there wouldn't be any in all but downtown Toronto and Vancouver. Most articles I found on Google said somewhere around $20 000. Assuming some currency conversion, let's say $25 000. So about $140/month over 25 years in capital costs. Maintenance is probably somewhere in the ballpark of $10-20 per month.

Next, nobody said they'd be paying $35 forever. If a parking structure was built, charging $150/month would be justifiable and in line with what other DND campuses with parking structures charge.
Eagleson Park'n'ride cost $47k per spot for surface parking.
Glebe Mobility Hub cost cost roughly $75,000 per spot (excluding land value). If use net new parking spaces, it was over $100k per spot.

Absolutely bare bones, multi-storey above grade might be do-able for $25k per space (construction costs), but that excludes site related costs, approvals, professional fees.

The dirty secret about most pay parking is that it's a loss leader. Especially apartment parking - usually the cost of provision is being subsidized through everyone's rents. There's a good reason that the private sector parking companies aren't building new parking garages.
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  #215  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2019, 11:27 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by dougvdh View Post
Eagleson Park'n'ride cost $47k per spot for surface parking.
Glebe Mobility Hub cost cost roughly $75,000 per spot (excluding land value). If use net new parking spaces, it was over $100k per spot.
I don't buy for a second that these spots don't include the cost of land and/or some substantial abatements that boosted either construction costs or the actual design costs.

Are we seriously suggesting for example that every Canadian Tire and Walmart spends $47 000 per parking spot, or every mall spends $75 000 per spot for their parking structures. Sorry, I don't find that data credible to generalize on.

Great blog here from Sean Marshall (also posts at UrbanToronto). He has some figures in his article.

https://seanmarshall.ca/2015/11/12/g...-free-parking/

GO spent $39 000 per spot building the Oshawa GO station garage. And they spent $200 per spot annually on maintenance.

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Absolutely bare bones, multi-storey above grade might be do-able for $25k per space (construction costs), but that excludes site related costs, approvals, professional fees.
Nothing more than bare bones is required since this lost isn't going to be a public one.

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Originally Posted by dougvdh View Post
The dirty secret about most pay parking is that it's a loss leader. Especially apartment parking - usually the cost of provision is being subsidized through everyone's rents. There's a good reason that the private sector parking companies aren't building new parking garages.
Apparently, you've never bought a condo. You pay for the spot. And these days, it's $30k.

In any event, whatever the cost, it's up to them to provide adequate parking and charge for it as necessary. Like I've said earlier, they could get away with charging several hundred per month because people need the spot. Telling employees that they shouldn't quit because they'd provide parking for cheap and then telling them to go pound sand was some terrible leadership and borderline unethical. There's more than a few folks who would have changed jobs or bought cars anticipating there would be adequate parking.

There's now retention surveys going around and they are trying to canvas to found out if people really do intend on leaving because of this situation.

Last edited by Truenorth00; Apr 17, 2019 at 11:46 PM.
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  #216  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2019, 12:06 AM
dougvdh dougvdh is offline
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I don't buy for a second that these spots don't include the cost of land and/or some substantial abatements that boosted either construction costs or the actual design costs.

Are we seriously suggesting for example that every Canadian Tire and Walmart spends $47 000 per parking spot, or every mall spends $75 000 per spot for their parking structures. Sorry, I don't find that data credible to generalize on.

Great blog here from Sean Marshall (also posts at UrbanToronto). He has some figures in his article.

https://seanmarshall.ca/2015/11/12/g...-free-parking/

GO spent $39 000 per spot building the Oshawa GO station garage. And they spent $200 per spot annually on maintenance.



Nothing more than bare bones is required since this lost isn't going to be a public one.



Apparently, you've never bought a condo. You pay for the spot. And these days, it's $30k.

In any event, whatever the cost, it's up to them to provide adequate parking and charge for it as necessary. Like I've said earlier, they could get away with charging several hundred per month because people need the spot. Telling employees that they shouldn't quit because they'd provide parking for cheap and then telling them to go pound sand was some terrible leadership and borderline unethical. There's more than a few folks who would have changed jobs or bought cars anticipating there would be adequate parking.

There's now retention surveys going around and they are trying to canvas to found out if people really do intend on leaving because of this situation.
I'm not suggesting that a parking spot at a suburban Canadian Tire costs $47k to construct, but I'm giving the real costs of recent Ottawa projects. But it's far more expensive than people assume.

My bare bones figure was pulled directly from Hanscomb's Yardsticks, the most commonly used estimating guide for Canadian construction. The figures for Eagleson ParknRide and the Glebe Mobility Hub are publicly available if you want to use google.

As the condo figure, the projects I've worked on lately, the cost to purchaser for parking has generally been in the $35,000 range. This doesn't generally cover full the cost of construction in Ottawa where most of the time, creating parking means making a big hole in bedrock.

Edit: additional info: https://canadianparking.ca/the-high-...pital-parking/ Note that construction costs are slightly higher in Ottawa than in Toronto.
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  #217  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2019, 11:02 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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I'm not suggesting that a parking spot at a suburban Canadian Tire costs $47k to construct, but I'm giving the real costs of recent Ottawa projects. But it's far more expensive than people assume.
There's a difference between "far more expensive" and suggesting the price is double my initial estimate of $25k for just surface parking. I think this borders on a red herring at this point. Your own link says $35k per spot for a parking structure in the GTA. Add 10-20% to build in Ottawa and it's still not close to $47 000 per surface parking spot.

Beyond that you seem to completely dodge the wider point of what was done to these employees. They were promised access to parking in an effort to dissuade them from jumping ship. In reality, senior departmental leadership had no intention to build additional parking and was deliberately deceiving them. They should have built the parking structure and charged them $300/mo to pay it off. And told them in advance what the cost would be so that anybody who didn't think it worthwhile could plan to leave.

I highly doubt that anybody here would be happy to get the treatment that these folks got from DND. Just imagine you've worked for years downtown. You take the bus to work. They now tell you the office is moving across town and your bus commute is going to double. You think about quitting. The boss tells you they'll give you $35 parking to help ease the transition. You go out and get a second car in anticipation of having to drive to work. A month before the move they tell you there's not enough parking at any price and you'll be in a lottery for parking, and that you should plan for that double long bus commute anyway.
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  #218  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2019, 1:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
... Add 10-20% to build in Ottawa and it's still not close to $47 000 per surface parking spot. ....

Beyond that you seem to completely dodge the wider point of what was done to these employees. ...
$47k per spot is the cost at Eagleson - this might be exceptional given the soil conditions there are horrible - but I stated it because the costs are part of public record. Ditto with cost for the Glebe Mobility Hub. Point was whether the number is $25k or $50k, the current charge of $35/m doesn't support it.

As for the wider point. I agree it sucks for employees. There was a poor decision made a decade ago when the move was proposed. There was a lack of follow through with the City and OCTranspo on ensure adequate transit was in place. There was poor communication with employees to manage expectations. There a poor decision made on what the cost of parking should be and how it would be allotted.

But I don't believe building more parking is the best answer to any of those issues.
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  #219  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2019, 8:05 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Point was whether the number is $25k or $50k, the current charge of $35/m doesn't support it.
The $35 charge is in line with what a lot of business parks in that are charge: free. Moreover, cheap parking was a commitment made to further their retention goals. Not because it was mean to recover costs.

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As for the wider point. I agree it sucks for employees. There was a poor decision made a decade ago when the move was proposed. There was a lack of follow through with the City and OCTranspo on ensure adequate transit was in place. There was poor communication with employees to manage expectations. There a poor decision made on what the cost of parking should be and how it would be allotted.

But I don't believe building more parking is the best answer to any of those issues.
If they can't provide the bussing immediately, they are going to have pave over and make additional lots immediately. It's not like there's a tons of options here. There are literally thousands of people who will not have a reasonable commute to work without driving, starting in a few months, and lasting till Stage 2 is fully finished.

This is why I've said they should just defer some of the moves. But I don't think they want to pay the leases on dozens of properties for another half decade while waiting for Stage 2 to finish.
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  #220  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2019, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
...If they can't provide the bussing immediately, they are going to have pave over and make additional lots immediately. It's not like there's a tons of options here. There are literally thousands of people who will not have a reasonable commute to work without driving, starting in a few months, and lasting till Stage 2 is fully finished....
There's no space on the site to 'just pave over'. Half the parking area is already in the greenbelt, there's little open space to jamb thousands more parking spaces into.

Besides, to create a surface parking lot would take a substantial level of approvals and likely construction could not start until next year by that times the regulatory clearances were passed. Because of the Greenbelt, it would need federal approval through the NCC, watershed would require RVCA approvals. There'd be tree removal required, so add Ministry of Environment Environmental Assessments and mitigation measures, a substantial set of interventions for stormwater management would need to be planned. A traffic study would be required. The parking lot would need to be designed. Funding for construction would need to be secured. Siteplan approval would be likely required (or federal level siteplan review and approval). The lot would need to be constructed.

A shuttle, octranspo, or carpool solution is a far more expedient approach.
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