NEW YORK | Penn Station / MSG Renovation

[vkristof]

Originally Posted by Eveningsong

Did $1 Billion renovation budget include asbestos removal from the building?


http://www.nytimes.com/1988/04/28/bu...s-shunned.html

Buildings With Asbestos Shunned

By ERIC N. BERG
Published: April 28, 1988

I assume it did.

The current, ongoing, Phase I Moynihan Station (West End Concourse Expansion, etc.) includes asbestos abatement, but Farley/Moynihan is a much older building than MSG squatting on the bowels of Penn Station.

The NYT had a recent article on asbestos (the good kind) STILL being used as a low cost building material in India.

[chris08876]

Moving the Garden Would Pave the Way for a New Penn Station

Last May, after an epic battle to limit Madison Square Garden's special permit to operate to 10 years, four fantastical sets of renderings depicting what Penn Station could look like without the arena on its top were unveiled, courtesy of a big "what if" exercise spearheaded by the Municipal Art Society and the Regional Plan Association. At MAS's summit this morning, a group of architects and city planners unveiled the next phase of research (and, of course, shiny new visualizations) in a 42-page report that details their quest to drastically improve the city's grossest transit, massively overcrowded hub by 2023. Their conclusion? That, in an ideal world, the Garden would relocate to the Morgan postal facility between 28th and 31st streets and Ninth and Tenth avenues.

After introductions by architect Hugh Hardy, MAS's executive director Margaret Newman, and RPA's Thomas Wright, which focused on the unsustainability of the current transit hub (Penn sees three times more people than La Guardia and JFK combined) and boosted the concept of a one new ("a bold plan that even skeptical New Yorkers can embrace"), Jill Lerner, a partner at Kohn Pedersen Fox Associates, presented the Morgan plan, as laid out above in renderings and graphics.

She emphasized how an arena in that currently underused location, accompanied by a public plaza plus retail shops, cafes, and other enlivening elements, would connect Chelsea Park to its south, the High Line and Hudson Yards to the west, and to Penn Station to the northeast. Much was made about the proximity of the Morgan postal facility to the existing arena.

As part of the Penn 2023 initiative launched last fall, architects at Woods Bagot were tasked with envisioning another solution to the Penn problem. What improvements could be made if the Garden did not move, but rather stayed in place as renovations evolved around it?

Director Jeffrey Holmes discussed removing the theater that sits under MSG on the Eighth Avenue side and opening up that facade to be a big entrance hall with steps down to the concourses. The floor of the arena, which is currently elevated, would serve as the hall's ceiling. A similar move could apply to Seventh Avenue, resulting in a more prominent entry hall there, too, which would "open up the center of the site" and bring light down to the concourse level.

Woods Bagot's proposal also included a revamp of the streetwall along 33rd and 31st streets to include shops and other activities. The last part of this proposal was a landscaped rooftop around MSG's perimeter—rendered as a new, glassy enclosure—that could be publicly accessible. "This proposal certainly doesn't solve all the challenges of the site," Holmes said, "but it solves many."

Meanwhile, Grimshaw Architects examined the feasibility of turning Midtown West into a cultural district of sorts. Partner Vincent Chang explained that "the boundary between a transit environment and a neighborhood has become that much more blurred" and that train stations are"not the cauterizing elements they once were." By letting his staff roam the area on Friday afternoon to collect "thousands of data points" with what kind of businesses, shops, and institutions line the long blocks there, they were able to determine that while some parts were barren, there was a groundwork that, if bolstered by the relocation of the Garden and a new Penn, would improve the vibrancy of street life.

======================================
http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2014/1...nn_station.php

[Perklol]

Looks good so far.

MSG totally needs to move but I like Scalziand's idea of moving MSG to MW site and in exchange Brookfield can build office towers in a central location (near 7th avenue as supposed to the lame 9th/10th avenue area). I hope Brookfield comes to its senses and realizes that no one wants to be on 9th ave.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by chris08876

Moving the Garden Would Pave the Way for a New Penn Station

Not gonna happen, not in a hundred years. But I do like the thinking about moving the Garden. They would have better luck with trying to put it on the river, on part of the Javits Site (preferably close to the subway station). But even then, the Javits itself would have to be moved. They're along way off from even settling that discussion.

As of right now, the Farley building would be the best solution, as was once planned. Even that was a stretch, but it's doable.

[NYguy]

Now, this is something that seems like it may have a chance...


http://www.capitalnewyork.com/articl...eens-rail-yard

Amtrak weighing development of massive Queens rail yard










By Ryan Hutchins
Oct. 23, 2014

Amtrak is considering developing Sunnyside Yards in Queens as part of a nationwide evaluation of its real estate portfolio and could turn to investors as early as next spring to find partners willing to explore potential uses for those properties, the company’s chairman, Anthony Coscia, said Thursday.

Executives have been in talks with the de Blasio and Cuomo administrations about the site, Coscia told reporters at a global real estate conference at the Jacob Javits Convention Center in Manhattan. Coscia mentioned the plans during a panel discussion moderated by former deputy mayor Dan Doctoroff.

The Sunnyside Yards is one the largest undeveloped parcels in New York City and holds virtually limitless potential to developers willing to build a platform above the tracks. Planners have long dreamed about what could be built on the property, which remains an active rail yard used by several train companies.

It was unclear on Thursday exactly what Amtrak would pursue, whether it would sell or lease the development rights or how involved it would remain in any project undertaken on the site. There are additional development sites the company is discussing in Chicago, Philadelphia, Baltimore and Washington, D.C.

We’ve completed an analysis of what we think we’re going to need for the operating business,” Coscia said after the panel at the Urban Land Institute’s fall conference. “Obviously, it doesn’t make any sense for us to sell real estate that we’re going to need to run the railroad. So, we’ve pretty much completed that and what we’re doing between now and March is trying to determine—after subtracting those needs—what sort of developable real estate sites we have that are available that we can monetize.”

Sunnyside, he said, is the perfect example of the type of site on which Amtrak believes it can make a considerable amount of money. There have been conversations about the site between Amtrak executives and Mayor Bill de Blasio, deputy mayor Alicia Glen and chief of staff Laura Santucci, Coscia said.

A spokesman for the mayor said building on the yards could fit in to the city’s ambitious affordable housing plan—which calls for construction of 80,000 affordable units over the next decade—but cautioned nothing is imminent.

“The development of the Sunnyside Yards could be an opportunity to advance the mayor's housing and economic development agenda,” the spokesman, Wiley Norvell, said an email. “Indeed, it’s… been talked about for decades. But while [Amtrak] may be seeking to monetize and re-evaluate its assets across the country, there are no imminent plans to redevelop the yards. We would pursue significant engagement with local stakeholders before any such effort was launched.”

Amtrak executives also sought to walk back the chairman’s comments, saying the Sunnyside property was one of many being evaluated, that the time frame for reaching out to investors was not set in stone and that, even then, the company does not intend to look at specific uses. Rather, the company will be searching next year for partners willing to look at the entire portfolio.

“Nothing is for sale,” said Stephen Gardner, Amtrak’s vice president for Northeast Corridor and infrastructure investment development. “We’re not looking to actually develop anything next year. We’re looking to find partners who would work with us on developments strategies for all these assets we own in different cities.”

Still, the chairman’s comments were by far the most aggressive made on the topic by an executive at the company and were read as a significant moment for those thinking about the potential the Sunnyside Yards hold.

The yards cover 167 acres, a remarkably large swath of land for New York City, and are actually in a central place—located near mass transit, booming Queens neighborhoods and Manhattan. By contrast, the Hudson Yards property that is being developed now by Related Companies—the largest development project in America—covers just 28 acres.

Despite the lack of details, Mitchell Moss, a New York University professor and leading expert in urban planning and policy, said it was a “genuinely powerful statement” and a “breakthrough” that the rail company is thinking this way and that Coscia is discussing it publicly.

“It’s a massive site in which you could take on many different, important functions,” Moss said. “And it would be great for New York City, it could be great for the nation and it would certainly transform western Queens.”

It would be extremely complex to build on the site and it’s not clear if all of it is developable, according to several experts. There could be challenges with soil contamination and, like at Hudson Yards, would require careful planning so as not to disturb the flow of trains. The yards are used the Long Island Rail Road and NJ Transit, which stores idling trains there between the morning and evening commutes. Amtrak trains pass through on the way to Boston.

The Metropolitan Transportation Authority, which runs the LIRR and MetroNorth, has considered building an intermodal connection for the two train services at the yards, said David Giles, the research director for the Center for an Urban Future. The LIRR has also considered a massive storage facility there. Both those projects, of course, could be complicated by development plans—or vice versa.

Regardless, he said, the M.T.A. would have to be involved in deciding the future of the facility because the most valuable and buildable portion of the yards is its western half, which is controlled by the LIRR. This could also be a chance to consider whether a rail yard in such a densely populated part of Manhattan, so close to Manhattan, should be used for idling trains. Finding another place to do that free up dozens of acres for development without the need for building a multi-billion-dollar platform, he said.

“There’s a lot of potential to rethink the way regional rail works and whether Sunnyside should be this gigantic midday-storage facility for train idling,” Giles said.

The Center of an Urban Future’s director, Jonathan Bowles, said the chairman’s comments were exciting and surprising.

“It’s sitting in a thriving and growing neighborhood that is already seeing significant development,” he said. “And so it’s a pivotal piece of New York’s future.”

[eleven=11]

love this web page , but the Title is Moynihan Station
is there info on the current construction there???
IMO that seems more important and interesting then
the Garden moving maybe/never.

[Submariner]

A new Penn Station was needed a decade ago (not even considering what a disgusting s**thole it is). Considering the massive development with Manhattan West, Hudson Yards and the West Side boom in general + a growing city, I can't envision any other solution besides tearing down MSG working. Given that the permit exists for only nine more years, there is a chance that may happen. Imagine how nice that whole area will be with a new Moynahan Station, Penn Station and a new supertall office tower directly across the street from Penn.

[aquablue]

In the meantime, they need to find a way to fund the Moynihan station and at least amtrak customers and newcomers will enter the city with civility. The MSG thing won't happen fo another decade. Monyihan needs to be done NOW, no more dilly dallying around. It's time to end the practice of entering the city like rats.

[sparkling]

Here is another "move MSG" article if you are interested.


By Dana Rubinstein

If there’s any hope for a new Penn Station, Madison Square Garden will have to move, and on Thursday, a group of prominent urban planners will recommend a place to move it to: a U.S. Postal Service mail-sorting facility on Ninth Avenue.

“The site of the Morgan Post Office and Annex, located between 9th and 10th avenues and 28th and 30th streets, is both large enough to accommodate a new state-of-the-art arena and a quick, three- to seven- minute walk from Penn Station,” reads the report to be issued by the Alliance for a New Penn Station, a coalition of the Municipal Art Society and the Regional Plan Association. “Relocating the Garden to this site will provide the city with a new arena and allow for the reconstruction and expansion of Penn Station, each of which can be designed to vastly improve the conditions of the district.”

The notion that Madison Square Garden must move to save Penn Station is not a new one.

Last year, the alliance scored a significant victory when the city denied Madison Square Garden a permit to operate in perpetuity at its current location atop Penn Station. Instead, the city granted its owners a ten-year renewal, which will, in in less than nine years, be renewable again.
But this is the first time the alliance has examined possible alternative locations and determined the Morgan site is the ideal one.

The post service did not respond to a request for comment. But the site, and the idea itself, come with several challenges.

First, the postal facility is still in use and while the U.S. Postal Service is in belt-tightening mode and could perhaps be prevailed upon to sell its Midtown location, it would still have to consolidate its operations elsewhere.

That challenge, however, pales in comparison to others confronting the alliance.

The report’s authors take pains to note that the Garden, historically speaking, isn’t exactly wedded to its current location at Eighth Avenue, between 31st and 33rd streets.

The original Garden was at the northeast corner of Madison Square, before relocating to a McKim Mead and White building on the same site. Then it moved to a larger building on Eighth Avenue, between 49th and 50th streets. It wasn’t until 1963 that the current Garden was built, on the site of the original Penn Station, which was demolished in the misguided belief rail travel was a thing of the past.

In recent years, the Garden’s owners have contemplated moving from its current building twice: In 1986, when the Garden unveiled plans to move to what is now known as Hudson Yards, a plan that died with the real estate market crash of 1988. Earlier this century, the Garden contemplated moving across the street to the Farley Building annex, a plan that also fell apart, in this case thanks to what the report calls a “political quagmire.”

Today, “the Garden is the oldest arena in the [National Hockey League] and the second-oldest arena in the [National Basketball Association],” notes the report. But it’s also the recent recipient of a $1 billion capital investment.

During the permit negotiations last year, the Garden time and again indicated it had no further interest in moving, in part thanks to its renewed investment in the facility.

On Wednesday, a Garden spokeswoman declined further comment.

Not only does the alliance think the Garden should move. It also recommends that real estate giant Vornado relocate its neighboring office tower, Two Penn Plaza, somewhere else, too.

“It’s aspirational,” said Margaret Newman, the Municipal Art Society’s executive director. “It shares the same problems that MSG does in that it has columns that go down to the track level.”

Vornado had no comment.

And then, of course, there is the question of political leadership.

“Obviously the state has to be on board,” Newman said. “Our fondest hope is that [Governor Andrew] Cuomo will take this on, that the city of New York will take this on. Both the governor and the mayor should make it a priority.”

Cuomo’s office did not respond to a request for comment, though last year he indicated he was not particularly enthusiastic about discomfiting Madison Square Garden, which is controlled by one of his donors and allies, James Dolan.

For his part, Mayor Bill de Blasio supported limiting the Garden’s permit to ten years.

"The future of Penn Station is incredibly important to the City, and Madison Square Garden plays a critical role in that," said de Blasio spokesman Phil Walzak in a statement. "The Administration hasn’t had an opportunity yet to fully review this proposal, and looks forward to examining it further."

If the alliance’s plan is fraught with obstacles, so too is the future of rail travel in the Northeast Corridor.

The Amtrak tunnels that NJ Transit uses to convey commuters to and from Midtown Manhattan are in dire need of repair, and Amtrak’s C.E.O. recently raised the prospect that they have fewer than 20 years left.

Penn Station itself was designed for 200,000 passengers a day, but now (somehow) accommodates nearly 600,000.

It’s an unpleasant and largely incomprehensible warren of passageways that have been compared to “rat tunnels.” And demand for the already overburdened facility is only expected to grow.

"What this report shows is that there is a viable alternative to the current, miserable state of affairs in the Penn Station area," said Wendy Pollack, a spokeswoman for the Regional Plan Association. "The Garden could be successfully relocated, and a world-class arena built to replace the aging existing one. And Penn Station could be rebuilt into the transit hub and civic space that the city and region require for the 21st century.

http://www.capitalnewyork.com/articl...t-new-home-msg

[mrnyc]

yes "aspirational" indeed. this is always interesting, but really lets just keep to plugging along with moynihan station. moving msg and a new penn station is a nice idea for someday, but moynihan is needed right now.

[eleven=11]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

yes "aspirational" indeed. this is always interesting, but really lets just keep to plugging along with moynihan station. moving msg and a new penn station is a nice idea for someday, but moynihan is needed right now.

yes who is going to PAY to tear down the garden and Two Penn Plaza?
how much money to repair/rebuild Penn Station?
what reason would Vornado demolish a good building?

any updates on the Moynihan Amtrak station?

[sparkling]

^^^
If you are asking me, this large scale redevelopment is not happening. At most, we will get some new entrances as suggested in Moving the Garden Would Pave the Way for a New Penn Station article above and some other minor improvements. Everything else is just daydreaming but that's just my 50 cents.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by sparkling

^^^
If you are asking me, this large scale redevelopment is not happening. At most, we will get some new entrances as suggested in Moving the Garden Would Pave the Way for a New Penn Station article above and some other minor improvements. Everything else is just daydreaming but that's just my 50 cents.

MSG has to leave within 8 years. They have no lease beyond then.

The Garden will either relocate, or there will be no more Garden. This site is being redeveloped.

[sparkling]

^^^
I know that the Garden's lease is up soon. Still, I think that the area will only see minor changes unlike the bold visions unveiled last year. Let's wait and see what happens

[eleven=11]

come on people use some common sense
the odds of the garden moving are 1 in a 100
the Mayor of NYC will make a compromise and renovate instead.

any updates on the Moynihan Station???

[Perklol]

It will happen. The only obstacles here are the knicks/rangers naysayers that don't want this obsolete arena to go.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by eleven=11

come on people use some common sense
the odds of the garden moving are 1 in a 100
the Mayor of NYC will make a compromise and renovate instead.

I think you need to use some common sense here.

The Garden has already moved 4 times, and the Dolans were on the verge of leaving the existing Garden twice, once in the late 1990's, and again about 5 years ago.

In reality, the odds of the Dolans staying in the current Garden are 1 in 100. The Garden is the oldest arena in sports, it's a terrible use of very valuable property (development rights for 6 million square feet), and is a horribly outdated facility.

But the main reason the Garden will have to leave is because it's lease is ending, and the lease is controlled by the city.

The city is in charge here, and it would be pretty implausible to think that the Dolans would simultaneously choose to keep an outdated arena, forgo huge revenues, lose tax benefits, and somehow would be able to change the mind of both the mayor and the 48 NYC councilpersons who voted to end the MSG lease, all for the benefit of keeping a dumpy arena.

[eleven=11]

what is the policy for these old post office buildings???
seems like all major cities have them, some more valuable then other....
the newish Colts Stadium in Indy has one across the street

[aquablue]

Originally Posted by eleven=11

come on people use some common sense
the odds of the garden moving are 1 in a 100
the Mayor of NYC will make a compromise and renovate instead.

any updates on the Moynihan Station???

They just renovated it. I highly doubt a another renovation in 10 years will be worth it. I mean, how much can they put lipstick on a pig on an aging structure that is not going to last forever without expensive maintenance.

[WestSideGuy]

Originally Posted by aquablue

They just renovated it. I highly doubt a another renovation in 10 years will be worth it. I mean, how much can they put lipstick on a pig on an aging structure that is not going to last forever without expensive maintenance.

I think all of you who use the word "renovation" have not been inside the arena. It truly was a "transformation", it looks nothing like it did previously. If you saw any of the specials on MSG, they pretty much redid the steal inside the arena. It's practically brand new in there.

With that being said, I still want the Garden to move into the annex section of the Farley Post office. That idea will make more sense to Dolan now that Manhattan West and Hudson Yards have extended the city west and that area will be much more desirable.