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  #681  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2018, 3:52 PM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
... which is creating division rather than removing it, the opposite of what we should want.
Case in point:

Versus the initial situation where this "issue" wasn't on anyone's radar and therefore wasn't a source of any division, now Doug, someone123, lio45 are turned off the anti-statues cause, while niwell is turned off the pro-statues cause.
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  #682  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2018, 4:21 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
"The Chinese has no British instincts or British feelings or aspirations...if [the Chinese] came in great numbers and settled on the Pacific coast they might control the vote of that whole Province, and they would send Chinese representative[s] to sit here, who would represent Chinese eccentricities, Chinese immorality, Asiatic principles altogether opposite to our wishes; and, in the even balance of parties, they might enforce those Asiatic principles, those immoralities . . . , the eccentricities which are abhorrent to the Aryan race and Aryan principles, on this House.” (Source)

- Sir John A. MacDonald, 1885, on why people of Chinese ancestry should be denied the right to vote.

Thus began decades of institutionalized racism in Canada against Chinese immigrants, dictating where they could settle, what jobs they could hold, what businesses they could start, how much they could borrow, who they could marry, enacting a punitive head tax, etc.

And, yet, Chinese Canadians aren't exactly lining up to be on the side of Aboriginal activists right now. I wonder why?
Simplistically speaking, Chinese don’t care about politics.
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  #683  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2018, 7:25 PM
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The history and experience of Asians in North America is part of the reason why I'm skeptical of some claims of discrimination and race-oriented politics in general.

One particular example is that a bunch of STEM fields used to be dominated by whites but now have a disproportionate number of Asians who have done well in what is essentially a meritocratic system (and the most cosmopolitan of its kind in the world), even though there was undeniably a lot of anti-Asian discrimination at one time.

This has barely changed the amount of "heat" these fields get for being racist. The goalposts have silently moved to "non-whites and non-Asians, including South Asians in the past couple decades". Meanwhile, we have the ivy leagues in the US and probably a bunch of Canadian schools discriminating against Asians by shifting emphasis away from standardized test scores, and a lot of people who claim to advocate for racial equality barely seem to care.

I feel like the score-based system is the more meritocratic and fair system, but a lot of people seem to dislike it because it doesn't produce the results they want. They accuse the system of racism because that is politically effective, but they are trying to move away from a colour-blind ideal that let anyone prosper in the past. Furthermore they insist that we always operate is a heavy-handed racial crisis mode even though we have seen many racial minorities prosper in North America.
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  #684  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2018, 9:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
"The Chinese has no British instincts or British feelings or aspirations...if [the Chinese] came in great numbers and settled on the Pacific coast they might control the vote of that whole Province, and they would send Chinese representative[s] to sit here, who would represent Chinese eccentricities, Chinese immorality, Asiatic principles altogether opposite to our wishes; and, in the even balance of parties, they might enforce those Asiatic principles, those immoralities . . . , the eccentricities which are abhorrent to the Aryan race and Aryan principles, on this House.” (Source)

- Sir John A. MacDonald, 1885, on why people of Chinese ancestry should be denied the right to vote.

Thus began decades of institutionalized racism in Canada against Chinese immigrants, dictating where they could settle, what jobs they could hold, what businesses they could start, how much they could borrow, who they could marry, enacting a punitive head tax, etc.

And, yet, Chinese Canadians aren't exactly lining up to be on the side of Aboriginal activists right now. I wonder why?

History is rife with this kind of thing, and I really wonder if there were any countries in the world which were not openly racist in 1885 ?
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  #685  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2018, 10:54 PM
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History is rife with this kind of thing, and I really wonder if there were any countries in the world which were not openly racist in 1885 ?
Exactly. The world back then (for the entirety of human history except recently) was a much more self-centric place due to the lack of means of travel and communication.

Sir John A. is actually a saint compared to the "founders" of other modern countries. For example, the early kings of France were all bloodthirsty murderers and rapists.

Obviously, though, it's not because we're better than others: the world in general was a more civilized place at the time of confederation than it was a millenium and a half ago, so it's totally apples and oranges.
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  #686  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2018, 1:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
"The Chinese has no British instincts or British feelings or aspirations...if [the Chinese] came in great numbers and settled on the Pacific coast they might control the vote of that whole Province, and they would send Chinese representative[s] to sit here, who would represent Chinese eccentricities, Chinese immorality, Asiatic principles altogether opposite to our wishes; and, in the even balance of parties, they might enforce those Asiatic principles, those immoralities . . . , the eccentricities which are abhorrent to the Aryan race and Aryan principles, on this House.” (Source)

- Sir John A. MacDonald, 1885, on why people of Chinese ancestry should be denied the right to vote.

Thus began decades of institutionalized racism in Canada against Chinese immigrants, dictating where they could settle, what jobs they could hold, what businesses they could start, how much they could borrow, who they could marry, enacting a punitive head tax, etc.

And, yet, Chinese Canadians aren't exactly lining up to be on the side of Aboriginal activists right now. I wonder why?
They weren't the Indigenous peoples of this land.
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  #687  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2018, 1:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
Simplistically speaking, Chinese don’t care about politics.
And honestly, Chinese discrimination doesn't hit the same nerves as Aboriginal discrimination does for a lot of people.
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  #688  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2018, 1:43 AM
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And honestly, Chinese discrimination doesn't hit the same nerves as Aboriginal discrimination does for a lot of people.
And though the anti-Chinese discrimination and head tax were very real injustices, they pale in comparison to what was done to Canadians of Japanese descent during WWII. Where Canada (and the USA) basically threw their own citizens into prison camps purely based on race. Canada was the worst offender, not allowing Japanese-Canadians to return to the BC Coast until 1949.
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  #689  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2018, 3:54 AM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
The history and experience of Asians in North America is part of the reason why I'm skeptical of some claims of discrimination and race-oriented politics in general.

One particular example is that a bunch of STEM fields used to be dominated by whites but now have a disproportionate number of Asians who have done well in what is essentially a meritocratic system (and the most cosmopolitan of its kind in the world), even though there was undeniably a lot of anti-Asian discrimination at one time.

This has barely changed the amount of "heat" these fields get for being racist. The goalposts have silently moved to "non-whites and non-Asians, including South Asians in the past couple decades". Meanwhile, we have the ivy leagues in the US and probably a bunch of Canadian schools discriminating against Asians by shifting emphasis away from standardized test scores, and a lot of people who claim to advocate for racial equality barely seem to care.

I feel like the score-based system is the more meritocratic and fair system, but a lot of people seem to dislike it because it doesn't produce the results they want. They accuse the system of racism because that is politically effective, but they are trying to move away from a colour-blind ideal that let anyone prosper in the past. Furthermore they insist that we always operate is a heavy-handed racial crisis mode even though we have seen many racial minorities prosper in North America.
Definitely. There always seems to be a group of people that aims to make racism seem like a much bigger problem than it really is. Why that is, I really don't know.
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  #690  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2018, 11:46 AM
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So, once we've cleansed ourselves of our filthy, white, western ways, what happens then? What foundation do we lay under this rotten, old shack, exactly?

I don't know how many of you have spent time abroad or have friends from other countries, but good God we look ridiculous. We certainly appear to be a people with little to do. Luckily most Canadians are sane, and don't give two sh*ts about these sorts of things.
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  #691  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2018, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
And though the anti-Chinese discrimination and head tax were very real injustices, they pale in comparison to what was done to Canadians of Japanese descent during WWII. Where Canada (and the USA) basically threw their own citizens into prison camps purely based on race. Canada was the worst offender, not allowing Japanese-Canadians to return to the BC Coast until 1949.
Very easy to judge those in the past on today's mores and unfair as well.

Almost everybody has an injustice put upon them at one time or another. We should take an example of Canadians of Asian descent who didn't whine nor wallow in their misfortune but kept their head down and ploughed right through it.
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  #692  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2018, 1:21 PM
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Maclean's claims to have scouted out all the statues and other homages to John A. Macdonald in Canada.

https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/...teractive-map/

But they seem to have forgotten... the statue of him that sits on Parliament Hill in Ottawa!

Wouldn't that be the one that first comes to mind for most people?

Journalism today...
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  #693  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2018, 3:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Maclean's claims to have scouted out all the statues and other homages to John A. Macdonald in Canada.

https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/...teractive-map/

But they seem to have forgotten... the statue of him that sits on Parliament Hill in Ottawa!

Wouldn't that be the one that first comes to mind for most people?

Journalism today...
It's included in the map.
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  #694  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2018, 4:45 PM
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Guess they updated it. It was not there when I posted.
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  #695  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2018, 6:08 PM
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I think that considering that Canada was created as essentially an offshoot of Great Britain in North America, with the same language, culture, political and legal system and considering that Quebec's unique language and civil code was also included, and more generally the Roman Catholic fact was also given consideration, our leaders did an admirable job. It was already a much more inclusive country than most others at the time.

We have to understand that Canada was not being created as a multi-cultural country from day one (maybe bicultural) and we also have to understand the pressures of the day where there was great fear of American Manifest Destiny that could have been unleashed at the conclusion of their Civil War. If that had happened, the losers of the American Revolution, would have lost a second time. That was not an option.


An admirable project was not without significant flaws but human and cultural understanding of the 19th century was more limited than today. Nevertheless, even today, much more serious genocide still takes place in certain countries than ever occured in Canada and even that depends on how you define genocide.
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  #696  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2018, 9:43 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
And, yet, Chinese Canadians aren't exactly lining up to be on the side of Aboriginal activists right now. I wonder why?
Is there a lot of "solidarity" between Aboriginal activists and visible minority activists who see eye-to-eye on various social issues?

From what I see in the US, it seems like various left-leaning American minorities (Black, Hispanic, even Jewish, Asian) more consistently unite as a bloc, much more than their Canadian counterparts. At least I felt like it was far more visible to me, living in the US as young adult.

In Canada, minorities generally don't seem to unite under a "minority" banner as easily.
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  #697  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2018, 11:35 AM
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Almost anyone who died before 2000 did not meet a current standard of proper comportment for a public figure. Relatively recent history abounds with people who would now be considered racist, sexist, ableist, etc. The further back in time we go the more divergence there is going to be. There are certainly a lot of statues of people way worse than SJAM across the country.

I wonder what current practices future people will find so abhorrent that will cause future people to demand statues of early 21st century figures be removed.
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  #698  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2018, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
Is there a lot of "solidarity" between Aboriginal activists and visible minority activists who see eye-to-eye on various social issues?

From what I see in the US, it seems like various left-leaning American minorities (Black, Hispanic, even Jewish, Asian) more consistently unite as a bloc, much more than their Canadian counterparts. At least I felt like it was far more visible to me, living in the US as young adult.

In Canada, minorities generally don't seem to unite under a "minority" banner as easily.
There might be a bit of that, but overall many Canadians (including minorities - with the possible exception of indigenous peoples) still think they have the "luxury to be indifferent" to matters political.

As such there is no widespread sense of urgency to mobilize based in group X, Y or Z as there has been in the U.S. since roughly the W Bush years and which has been hyper-intensified by the Trump presidency. And it can even be said that a not insignificant number of Canadians, if they have a feeling of "mobilization urgency", are in fact caught up more in the Trump-driven hysteria stateside, and don't really pay much attention to what's going on at home.
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  #699  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2018, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Almost anyone who died before 2000 did not meet a current standard of proper comportment for a public figure. Relatively recent history abounds with people who would now be considered racist, sexist, ableist, etc. The further back in time we go the more divergence there is going to be. There are certainly a lot of statues of people way worse than SJAM across the country.

I wonder what current practices future people will find so abhorrent that will cause future people to demand statues of early 21st century figures be removed.
I'll say it again - eating dead animals that we've killed to feed ourselves.
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  #700  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2018, 9:46 PM
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A weekly newspaper in Halifax published this image to go along with an article about the rise of the alt-right on university campuses in the city:



Edward Cornwallis somehow fits in with the pro-Nazi and "shouting at/around Muslims" theme even though he died 150 years before the Nazi party came to power in Germany and 200 years before significant Muslim immigration to Canada.

Article: https://www.thecoast.ca/halifax/alt-...t?oid=17024407

They point out that you can now identify this group by their haircuts. No word yet if the fashion police are on this.

They interviewed people who can read minds and figure out if someone is a fascist or racist even if they do not explicitly they say are:

Quote:
It was during the spring, says the Dalhousie Arts and Social Sciences Society president. The man showed up uninvited to a closed event, taking the space for his own, with his friends spouting subtle racist and fascist ideals. He masked his alt-right politics under a cloak of conservative libertarianism, but Hills says they could see right through it.
Marxist podcast guy says no to allowing right wing speech because it might lead to hate or even violence:

Quote:
Chris Parsons has spent a lot of time on university campuses and spoken out at length about the growing threat of the alt-right. As the co-host of Marxist podcast Dog Island—and occasional columnist for The Coast—he’s also spent a lot of time surrounded by politics. He says he saw this coming.

...

For Parsons, it’s not a question of freedom of speech. The presence of these ideas in a university setting is a stepping stone to more hate, even the potential of violence.
Jordan Peterson is in a grey area:

Quote:
For professors trying to navigate their land-mine filled classrooms, where debate and discomfort lie at every turn, it’s about making judgement calls on where the boundaries are.

“Would I want Jordan Peterson’s works to be banned?” asks Mount Saint Vincent University professor Randi Warne. “No. Do I think that he is wrong? Yes. But total suppression and censorship is dangerous. Every university should have places where these kinds of ideas are discussed and sometimes discussing them in historical or literary circumstances is a way to talk about these issues. It’s allowing a safe space in your classroom for people to raise these issues.”

Last edited by someone123; Sep 14, 2018 at 10:04 PM.
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