Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[Bdawe]

If you could provide a fast enough connection, why wouldn't more people commute from squamish? Remember, the roads are narrow and winding, will always be narrow, and the bridges are likely to remain congested for the forseeable future. These constraints make higher order transportation more attractive and more growth stimulating than they would be in other geographies

Also note that High speed doesn't have to mean 400 km/h. It's been (IMO unreasonably) used to refer to speeds as low as 145 km/h on upgraded conventional tracks

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

If you could provide a fast enough connection, why wouldn't more people commute from squamish? Remember, the roads are narrow and winding, will always be narrow, and the bridges are likely to remain congested for the forseeable future. These constraints make higher order transportation more attractive and more growth stimulating than they would be in other geographies

Again, if Portland-Seattle-Vancouver doesn't have a good business case for high speed rail, Vancouver-Squamish-Whistler has even less of one.

Originally Posted by Bdawe

Also note that High speed doesn't have to mean 400 km/h. It's been (IMO unreasonably) used to refer to speeds as low as 145 km/h on upgraded conventional tracks

Frigging Americans.

Sure, a Sea to Sky Express commuter rail like the WCE would be great for the corridor. But it likely won't turn a profit, even with the potential influx of tourists and commuters - that means no funding from Christy's train-hating administration, and no private backers. Put this one on the bottom of the "To Do" pile, look at it again if/when the Liberals get voted out.

[madog222]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Absolutely. They'd have to use the existing rail line - any attempt to straighten the tracks to provide actual high speed rail would require way more money than has been spent on the Sea to Sky highway - and that's just not going to happen.

They talk about constructing a new line, mostly tunneled.

[swimmer_spe]

Even getting that line up to speeds that are close to the speed limit on the highway would be a good thing. However, then you have urban sprawl happening.

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Even getting that line up to speeds that are close to the speed limit on the highway would be a good thing. However, then you have urban sprawl happening.

Squamish sprawl is probably going to happen what ever happens. The question might end up being whether it is transit oriented and scalable or whether it is car oriented and suffocating

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by madog222

They talk about constructing a new line, mostly tunneled.

Well that's not going to happen in my lifetime.

[ryanmaccdn]

I've always wondered why you couldn't build an high speed rail surface that is somewhat close to the shoreline. It would be close enough to use some type of piling into the ground under water but just far enough out it wouldn't hug the coast line and be so windy.

[Trainguy]

The BC Rail dayliner ended because it was a money loser despite any benefit to those using the service. Now that CN owns the trackage rights on that line, they would probably not be open to any type of passenger rail without big compensation. The Rocky Mountaineer uses that line sometimes but at what price? Commuter rail to Squamish and Whistler is never going to happen without some big funding.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

Now that CN owns the trackage rights on that line, they would probably not be open to any type of passenger rail without big compensation.

The former BC Rail line is very sparsely utilized. Yes, CN would want money for trackage rights but there is so much more available capacity on that line than there is on the WestCoast Express route that it wouldn't be prohibitive.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

The BC Rail dayliner ended because it was a money loser despite any benefit to those using the service. Now that CN owns the trackage rights on that line, they would probably not be open to any type of passenger rail without big compensation. The Rocky Mountaineer uses that line sometimes but at what price? Commuter rail to Squamish and Whistler is never going to happen without some big funding.

Was the dayliner setup for the 9 to 5 crowd? I don't think it would be that hard for a couple WCE trains to go from Squamish to Lonsdale.

[swimmer_spe]

What gets me is why after more than 20 years has the WCE never expanded beyond the one line? GO did, and so did AMT. It's not like there isn't a demand. And it's not like the other cities have less traffic on their lines.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

Was the dayliner setup for the 9 to 5 crowd? I don't think it would be that hard for a couple WCE trains to go from Squamish to Lonsdale.

The original dayliner was not a commuter service - it was a daily long haul route that went to Prince George.

[Bdawe]

Mainline rail is difficult in Metro Vancouver. The routes are curving, the population largely live on top of hills while the rail lines are at the bottom, the port generates a stupendous amount of traffic that comes out of the core of the region rather than just going around it like in Toronto, and key bottlenecks like the New Westminster Bridge would be expensive to ameliorate.

I would also note that a West Coast Express type train on the line up to Squamish would be rather painfully slow. Railliners and other DMU have much higher acceleration that helps them deal with frequent stops and recover from slow sections

[twoNeurons]

I find it fascinating that it's the same company that is building the Texas line. That line plans to use N700-i trainsets that Japan desperately wants to market overseas in light of more and more competition coming from China for international contracts.

Vancouver - Whistler could have a business case, but it would be far more viable if the road was tolled. If people are paying a fee to drive the highway, they will consider taking a train... otherwise, people don't think about sunk costs like fuel and the cost of running a vehicle. And tolls won't fly politically... so to attract customers, the train has to be more convenient and faster than driving. To be faster, it would have to be tunneled to Squamish, maybe under the west side of Grouse Mountain avoiding the watershed, and following the BC Hydro ROW to Furry Creek.

A few good things:

- In Whistler, parking is at a premium and can be expensive.
- Whistler ( and Squamish ) are pretty compact places.
- Adding capacity to the road corridor would be really expensive and environmentally damaging
- The BC Hydro corridor already exists... so there's less hoops to go through and fewer protests.
- Electricity isn't a problem when you run under the power lines.


What is most interesting (to me) is that the Texas project is meant to be profitable and is purely designed and developed by private companies (JR Central). If it's REALLY true that those companies are doing the initial studies, they likely won't proceed unless there's some chance at profitability.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Again, if Portland-Seattle-Vancouver doesn't have a good business case for high speed rail, Vancouver-Squamish-Whistler has even less of one.

Portland-Seattle-Vancouver has a good business case, but it comes at the cost of dropping ALL the other stops. The Amtrak Cascades is one of the few almost-profitable passenger rail services that Amtrak does not own the trackage for.

https://www.seattletransitblog.com/2...cades-express/


Essentially, HSR express line of only Vancouver-Seattle-Portland, would be profitable and be both cost and time competative with flying. It's already time competitive with flying between Vancouver and Seattle, due to the much less ridiculous security theater for the train.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Portland-Seattle-Vancouver has a good business case, but it comes at the cost of dropping ALL the other stops. The Amtrak Cascades is one of the few almost-profitable passenger rail services that Amtrak does not own the trackage for.

I see nothing wrong with dropping all the other stops, after all, the plane doesn't make any stops on the way either. At the very least, keep the Amtrak Cascades, and add an Express Service hitting only Bellingham and Everett on the way.

A proper dedicated HSR corridor could run alongside the 99 and terminate near YVR, with an understanding that continuing on to Vancouver would be either buried under Knight or trundle along the Arbutus Corridor... the hard part is getting through Vancouver or getting through Surrey. There are no "good" options.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

I find it fascinating that it's the same company that is building the Texas line. That line plans to use N700-i trainsets that Japan desperately wants to market overseas in light of more and more competition coming from China for international contracts.

Vancouver - Whistler could have a business case, but it would be far more viable if the road was tolled. If people are paying a fee to drive the highway, they will consider taking a train... otherwise, people don't think about sunk costs like fuel and the cost of running a vehicle. And tolls won't fly politically... so to attract customers, the train has to be more convenient and faster than driving. To be faster, it would have to be tunneled to Squamish, maybe under the west side of Grouse Mountain avoiding the watershed, and following the BC Hydro ROW to Furry Creek.

A few good things:

- In Whistler, parking is at a premium and can be expensive.
- Whistler ( and Squamish ) are pretty compact places.
- Adding capacity to the road corridor would be really expensive and environmentally damaging
- The BC Hydro corridor already exists... so there's less hoops to go through and fewer protests.
- Electricity isn't a problem when you run under the power lines.


What is most interesting (to me) is that the Texas project is meant to be profitable and is purely designed and developed by private companies (JR Central). If it's REALLY true that those companies are doing the initial studies, they likely won't proceed unless there's some chance at profitability.

Think of the tourists in the winter who would take a flight to the airport, then take the Skytrain to Waterfront, then thee train to Whistler.

You do not need tolls to convince most people to not sit in traffic.

[cornholio]

There was a study in 2001 in regards to this. Also was some other government study as well but I am too lazy to find it as its no longer that easy.

http://www.urbanstudio.sala.ubc.ca/s...enger_Rail.pdf

For high speed rail they say 60-80% in tunnels. That aint going to happen. But some tilting trains and minor improvements might make some sort of service viable to North Vancouver, or Vancouver if a expensive tunnel were to be built (which it wont). Looks like the government looked at 5 daily trains peak hour trains to and from Squamish like the WCE but that obviously did not happen. Probably because the trip time is nearing 2 hours just to get to North Vancouver, that simply does not compete with a car or even a bus. You can drive from Squamish to Lonsdale in 45min.

The most logical thing probably would be to build a proper park and ride facility either in Horsehoe bay or closer to the Lions Gate Bridge and then run more buses from it to downtown. That might be worth it for commuters. It would be cheap too.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by cornholio

There was a study in 2001 in regards to this. Also was some other government study as well but I am too lazy to find it as its no longer that easy.

Yep, and the results of these kinds of studies is that the government decided to improve the road instead. Now I'm as big a proponent of public transit as you're likely to find, and even I agree that this was a better use of the money, benefiting more people for less cost, than trying to push high speed rail to Whistler or even just Squamish.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Now I'm as big a proponent of public transit as you're likely to find, and even I agree that this was a better use of the money, benefiting more people for less cost, than trying to push high speed rail to Whistler or even just Squamish.

No kidding. Commuter rail might work a decade or two down the road, but high speed rail has about the same chance of success as the Canucks do.