Roads Fantasy Thread

[Zassk]

My dream since I was a kid is to see a freeway on the Boundary alignment, starting at 99 or 91 and ending with a big-ass interchange at Hwy 1 & Grandview. Ideally also connected to a Grandview cut freeway at the same interchange.

It is sooooo annoying trying to get to Hwy 1 from Richmond, and as someone who lived in Richmond all my life, I can't ever think about Hwy 1 without thinking of the "missing freeway connector". Boundary would be perfect although SFPR will help for trips to the east.

[tybuilding]

If the tunnel is ever upgraded they better put in a segregated cycle lane. That was the only thing that broke up my bike ride from Burnaby to Downtown to Bridgeport Station - Bus to Ladner - Ladner to Newton last night. 60 km total trip.

[cairnstone]

I believe that the boundry st bridge will be built in the next 30 years it is included in the long term traffic plan.

[red-paladin]

I thought Vancouver has a law that doesn't allow any new lanes into the city?
Boundary is completely on the Vancouver side of the Burnaby-Vancouver border according to my map.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

I thought Vancouver has a law that doesn't allow any new lanes into the city?
Boundary is completely on the Vancouver side of the Burnaby-Vancouver border according to my map.

As mentioned earlier, provincial law trumps Vancouver city law.

[ClearDop]

I know its way off and probably impossible but lately I've been thinking alot about HWY 91 linking up with HWY 1. How magnificent would that be??? I would die a happy man if that happened.

[Political_R]

Originally Posted by ClearDop

I know its way off and probably impossible but lately I've been thinking alot about HWY 91 linking up with HWY 1. How magnificent would that be??? I would die a happy man if that happened.

Driving convenience yes, but then Hwy 1's would induce a demand to where it would be congested in a matter of a few years. I would also be worried about South of the Fraser transit ridership decreasing due to easier access to 1.

[ClearDop]

Originally Posted by Political_R

Driving convenience yes, but then Hwy 1's would induce a demand to where it would be congested in a matter of a few years. I would also be worried about South of the Fraser transit ridership decreasing due to easier access to 1.

Highways should connect though. Thats how they work in the US and most other places in Canada. Hwy 1 and 99 are already congested all the time and 91 to a lesser extent. Connecting them is about convenience and just plain common sense. We could crap the SFPR, and instead build a bridge on the eastern tip of Richmond, across the Fraser, and have the highway link up with HWY 1. It would mean bulldozing a few houses and businesses, but the damage would be minimal compared to the latest skytrain addition

[Millennium2002]

Convenience.... oh... the ease of travelling on a new or expanded highway. Unfortunately, everyone will follow suit and you'll get a traffic jam in no time.

To be completely fair, all modes of transport are designed in much the same way... to make it easier to commute to and from work and other places where you need to do errands. Induced demand will exist for every building project.

However, the problem inherent in travelling by cars is the fact that people want to do their own things with them. They don't care about what their neighbour does, or the random stranger who just happens to need to go to the same places. Everyone wants to just hop into their car, do what they need to do by themselves or with their family, and return home within a reasonable time. Multiply that by roughly 3 million and factor in all the possible destinations and routes just within this region and it becomes obvious that they need a lot of space. The fact that most vehicles are quite large doesn't help either.

Transit in a way works in much the opposite way. It doesn't care about the needs of each individual person. Rather, it cares more about the approximate destinations for the majority of the population. The onus is on the person to navigate their way around to their final destinations using the appropriate transfers and interchanges. It may be slower, but it does move people more efficiently in terms of the number per unit of time. With more people per vehicle the space issue is reduced as well.

This is why I generally favour expanding transit and keeping the restrictions on traffic capacity in Vancouver. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to build for something that is inherently inefficient when there are alternative methods.

On a side note, I don't mind trading some restrictions on traffic capacity for tolls on each new freeway to limit use to those who need it the most.

EDIT: DISCLAIMER
- I acknowledge that there will always be traffic on the roads in Vancouver.
- The ideas expressed above do not constitute a complete opposition to road expansion, but rather an opinion that seeks to find alternative solutions wherever and whenever possible.

[dubsH]

Originally Posted by ClearDop

Highways should connect though. Thats how they work in the US and most other places in Canada. Hwy 1 and 99 are already congested all the time and 91 to a lesser extent. Connecting them is about convenience and just plain common sense. We could crap the SFPR, and instead build a bridge on the eastern tip of Richmond, across the Fraser, and have the highway link up with HWY 1. It would mean bulldozing a few houses and businesses, but the damage would be minimal compared to the latest skytrain addition

Uhh... why can't you just hop over the Alex Fraser and connect to the SFPR to connect back to Hwy 1? I see no immediate benefits of having a direct (freeway) link to Hwy 1 from Richmond; the SFPR on the other hand connects Deltaport to Hwy 1, and Richmond can easily connect to that provided it isn't rush hour (which begs the question, when you expand the lanes to 8, it just means the crowds are twice as much as it is right now).

I would rather have 5 additional rapid transit lines built before expanding more freeway for the sake of expanding freeway. And I drive on the 91/99 often too. I can't see any new bridge handling more drivers on the road having relatively minimal damage to a cleaner rapid transit system.

A little bit too northwest for me.

[ClearDop]

Originally Posted by dubsH

Uhh... why can't you just hop over the Alex Fraser and connect to the SFPR to connect back to Hwy 1? I see no immediate benefits of having a direct (freeway) link to Hwy 1 from Richmond; the SFPR on the other hand connects Deltaport to Hwy 1, and Richmond can easily connect to that provided it isn't rush hour (which begs the question, when you expand the lanes to 8, it just means the crowds are twice as much as it is right now).

I would rather have 5 additional rapid transit lines built before expanding more freeway for the sake of expanding freeway. And I drive on the 91/99 often too. I can't see any new bridge handling more drivers on the road having relatively minimal damage to a cleaner rapid transit system.

A little bit too northwest for me.

You're serious? You don't see any immediate benefits? People from Vancouver, Richmond, and south of the tunnel (and Delta Port) use HWY 99/91 to get to HWY 1. Unfortunately they have to to go through New Westminster. A a highway link between these highways would alleviate all that traffic being funneled into New Westminster.

[ClearDop]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

Convenience.... oh... the ease of travelling on a new or expanded highway. Unfortunately, everyone will follow suit and you'll get a traffic jam in no time.

To be completely fair, all modes of transport are designed in much the same way... to make it easier to commute to and from work and other places where you need to do errands. Induced demand will exist for every building project.

However, the problem inherent in travelling by cars is the fact that people want to do their own things with them. They don't care about what their neighbour does, or the random stranger who just happens to need to go to the same places. Everyone wants to just hop into their car, do what they need to do by themselves or with their family, and return home within a reasonable time. Multiply that by roughly 3 million and factor in all the possible destinations and routes just within this region and it becomes obvious that they need a lot of space. The fact that most vehicles are quite large doesn't help either.

Transit in a way works in much the opposite way. It doesn't care about the needs of each individual person. Rather, it cares more about the approximate destinations for the majority of the population. The onus is on the person to navigate their way around to their final destinations using the appropriate transfers and interchanges. It may be slower, but it does move people more efficiently in terms of the number per unit of time. With more people per vehicle the space issue is reduced as well.

This is why I generally favour expanding transit and keeping the restrictions on traffic capacity in Vancouver. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to build for something that is inherently inefficient when there are alternative methods.

On a side note, I don't mind trading some restrictions on traffic capacity for tolls on each new freeway to limit use to those who need it the most.

Thats not the way the world works. Halting highway expansion and building a utopia of public transit is never going to happen. Grow up

[Millennium2002]

(Comment removed. Apologies for any potential offense caused.)

[ClearDop]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

I dislike that language that you used towards me. Surely the idea of transit utopia will be impossible but the rest about society's use of the car is quite truthful (if not completely truthful) for both me and probably everyone else here that thinks about it carefully.

Your whole post was condescending and patronizing. I disliked it very much and it hurt me.

[Millennium2002]

Metro Vancouver Highway Concepts

I acknowledge that this stretches the boundaries of what is considered relevant for this topic. It does include highway 99 though. Anyway, this is just some ideas regarding new highways and connections. Thoughts?

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by ClearDop

You're serious? You don't see any immediate benefits? People from Vancouver, Richmond, and south of the tunnel (and Delta Port) use HWY 99/91 to get to HWY 1. Unfortunately they have to to go through New Westminster. A a highway link between these highways would alleviate all that traffic being funneled into New Westminster.

Of course that would be nice. But SFPR follows the same route, just on the other side of the water. It's good enough IMO. And I speak as someone who was born and raised in Richmond. I will take SFPR every time I head into the valley, period.

The freeway system needed two things - an east-west connection through New West, and a north-south connection near Boundary. With SFPR, the east-west connection is provided, just in a slightly different way. There will be no more new highway connections to the east after SFPR. I suggest you put your attention on a future north-south highway instead, which could still happen.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

Metro Vancouver Highway Concepts

I acknowledge that this stretches the boundaries of what is considered relevant for this topic. It does include highway 99 though. Anyway, this is just some ideas regarding new highways and connections. Thoughts?

My thought is that I love the connection from Queensborough to Hwy 1. Please build that today. I bet that would alleviate a ton of pressure on Patullo/McBride.

I'm not sure what you've done in Surrey/Langley, though - why so many routes, and why not a single Serpentine Hwy?

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Of course that would be nice. But SFPR follows the same route, just on the other side of the water. It's good enough IMO. And I speak as someone who was born and raised in Richmond. I will take SFPR every time I head into the valley, period.

The freeway system needed two things - an east-west connection through New West, and a north-south connection near Boundary. With SFPR, the east-west connection is provided, just in a slightly different way. There will be no more new highway connections to the east after SFPR. I suggest you put your attention on a future north-south highway instead, which could still happen.

Using SFPR will be faster and better to get from Richmond and Delta (read: Ferries and Airport) to Highway 1 eastbound. Even if SFPR isn't full freeway standard, using it vs a new NFPR built to similar standards would be more direct and faster from a lot of destinations. Plus you get to avoid the toll on the Port Mann. Personally I'm hoping that a lot of truck traffic decides to avoid New Westminster once the SFPR is open. If you're heading to Abbotsford or beyond, AFB and SFPR will be a better option that going all the way through New West.

[Millennium2002]

Originally Posted by Zassk

My thought is that I love the connection from Queensborough to Hwy 1. Please build that today. I bet that would alleviate a ton of pressure on Patullo/McBride.

I'm not sure what you've done in Surrey/Langley, though - why so many routes, and why not a single Serpentine Hwy?

Well... the idea is to push most of the highways (or in more precise terms expressways as I coloured them green - red are highways and blue are freeways btw) out of the city centres... kind of like what they did to the SFPR in the Delta region. This would save on construction costs and minimize the impact to developed areas.

[DKaz]

Halp! Northwest2k has hacked into allan_kuan's account and posted a highway expansion map!