Bob Whitelaw: 2011 Riot Worse Than 1994 Riot; Police Failed to Act Quickly

[ckkelley]

I think that one of the main causes of the riot was years of Liberal government/attitude regarding personal responsibility. Everybody's a victim or some such garbage. I hope that the current government will start to address that backwardness.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Attempt as you might, you really can't legislate away the man-children that make things like this happen. I would put money on this happening regardless of drinking age or the like. Not many people in the crowd at Georgia and Hamilton were particularly drunk from my recollection.

[Millennium2002]

Yeah... it's impossible to stop a crowd unless you essentially lock down the entire Downtown and have no events whatsoever so everyone stays dispersed... and of course who would like that when we want to build up a positive fun city image? =S

In addition, we could opt for a permanent CCTV and ID check-in system but that's way too reactionary given the large number of events that are held without any incident. I mean, do we really have to be that strict and punishing all the time? It's generally only the high-profile stuff that gets targeted... and maybe in those cases I'll let such a system pass, but only if it's temporary.

In the end, you can prosecute, secure parking garages, add more police, maybe close down SkyTrain one way and add cameras + ID checks if really necessary, etc... but otherwise you can't do a lot more than that with the rioters blending in well and without risking a turn back to staleness or provoking reactions of police intrusiveness.

[WarrenC12]

Rights come with responsibilities. Sorry, we just gave the government plenty of reason to cut our rights until we can grow up a little.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

Yeah... it's impossible to stop a crowd unless you essentially lock down the entire Downtown and have no events whatsoever so everyone stays dispersed... and of course who would like that when we want to build up a positive fun city image? =S

In addition, we could opt for a permanent CCTV and ID check-in system but that's way too reactionary given the large number of events that are held without any incident. I mean, do we really have to be that strict and punishing all the time? It's generally only the high-profile stuff that gets targeted... and maybe in those cases I'll let such a system pass, but only if it's temporary.

In the end, you can prosecute, secure parking garages, add more police, maybe close down SkyTrain one way and add cameras + ID checks if really necessary, etc... but otherwise you can't do a lot more than that with the rioters blending in well and without risking a turn back to staleness or provoking reactions of police intrusiveness.

You don't have to be that draconian on a daily basis to keep things like this from happening. Asking for "paper please" isn't the solution this problem requires. And at times it is the police state feeling we sometimes have with the over protective nannyism that creates the angst ridden malcontents.

What was needed was an immediate response. People needed to know that as soon as things got bad, they should get the hell out of Dodge or face the consequence. While we promote a free society based on liberal ideology in our daily lives, we cannot tolerate the breakdown of order or violence we saw Wednesday.

At times the police were too restrained. They underestimated how quickly this would spread, with the VPD spokesman on CTV while cars were on fire saying nothing serious is happening. They sent in unarmored VPD into the middle of a crowd to try and get them away from the cars, but pulled out because the crowd was not scared of them. They had to wait to disperse the crowd for hours because they didn't have any police ready and waiting.

With 100,000 people in one tiny space, this should have been predictable. The crowd was too tightly packed in. What's worked on Granville street is that the crowds are fluid. They move and there is space for police to move around and keep an eye on things. But during the game, it was just a sea of people. Those wanting to quickly escape might have been caught up at first, limiting the desire for police to move in until people had been given the chance and the ability to use their reasoning and decide to leave.

But without police in the crowd during the game, it was like Lord of the Flies. There was no social order, no structure, no consequence. People degenerated into groupthink where the only ideas generated were "LIGHT IT UP" and they proceeded to tribal dance in circles around the fires. The Conch is smashed and reasonable people are crushed with rocks and hunted down. Then finally the authorities show up with a show of force and most of the rioters smarten up and leave.

[racc]

Originally Posted by WBC

Also the mayor and the chief of police may want to ping their euro counterparts as to whether they encourage hooligans to gather in the city centers at the city's expense and watch the games in the middle of the freaking road. Oh pardon me I forgot that City uses every opportunity to close the Georgia viaduct to make a point. Well, point made.

I've been in European cities that do this all the time. There are huge parties with plenty of rowdies in the streets. The stores windows are covered so no broken glass. At the end of the party, they just hose down the streets and then get on with life.

Georgia Street would have been closed regardless. Even if there was not the fan zone, there would have been lots of people wandering downtown.

[racc]

Originally Posted by WBC

Raise the drinking age to 25. Today's youth don't do much to contribute to the society to begin with, unless diddling with a smart phone all day is considered work. Most of them don't work for living and most of them have no demonstrated ability to live a self sustained life. So why should they have the right to drink and endanger others?

Rather an ageist comment. Yes, there are a few young people who are bad apples but most are hard working great people trying to get by in an economy that has been wreaked and with an environment that has been totally trashed by the older generations. It is surprising that they are not more angry.

[go_leafs_go02]

And I'd like to say that it appeared that quite a few of these people there magically are under 19 already - based on pictures and a few bios of what we've seen from some key photos that have defined the riot thus far.

Raising the drinking age to 25 will not help - one bit. The complete ban of sale of alcohol downtown may have helped, but I know some media members were speculating that a significant # of assholes might just have been completely sober.

[s211]

Originally Posted by racc

Rather an ageist comment. Yes, there are a few young people who are bad apples but most are hard working great people trying to get by in an economy that has been wreaked and with an environment that has been totally trashed by the older generations. It is surprising that they are not more angry.

You just called someone ageist and then do that same person one better by making an even grander ageist comment. Pure class.

[mr.x]

Take a close look at how NYPD splits the crowd up with actual barriers, this keeps the large and wide pathways open for police to access easily and prevents crowd surges.

The green strips of carpet on West Georgia were supposed to have been the identifiers for the pathways, but that certainly wasn't enforced by the police.


http://www.newyearseve.com/articles/...rk/new-york/20

[WBC]

Originally Posted by racc

Rather an ageist comment. Yes, there are a few young people who are bad apples but most are hard working great people trying to get by in an economy that has been wreaked and with an environment that has been totally trashed by the older generations. It is surprising that they are not more angry.

And exactly what should they be angry about at age 18-25? That they live the most pampered lives in the recorded human history? Should we perhaps apologize to the younger generations for not building a world and economy where 18 year olds could waltz into 6 digit salaries based on their own sense of self-awesomeness? Or should we apologize for not coming up with a process that grows their plastic/silicons gadgets on organic fields where unicorns come to feed? Give me a break - the only reason why the youths starting from the 50s are angry is that instead of being sent to wars/factories/fields to die/work are been pampered by their parents and society that celebrates mediocrity. Thus they get bored and frustrated as they don't know what to do with themselves after high school where everybody told them they were special (with all due respect to a few ambitious ones).

[WBC]

Originally Posted by racc

I've been in European cities that do this all the time. There are huge parties with plenty of rowdies in the streets. The stores windows are covered so no broken glass. At the end of the party, they just hose down the streets and then get on with life.

Rowdies? That's not exactly the name I would use for somebody who overturns the cars and sets them on fire.

So, it's the shop-owners fault for being inconsiderate and not thinking ahead and installing metal window covers on their stores? I happen to live and work downtown and spend considerable amount of time around downtown community, so pardon me for not liking my part of town being destroyed. Also, I don't want to transform my home and/or place of business into a bunker, just so that the "rowdies" can have their fun.

[SpongeG]

not seeing the stores chained up, hidden behind pull down metal doors is something that's nice about vancouver and I always hear tourists saying how much they love the freedom and the safe feeling they have - not having your businesses in lockdown mode is a big part of why the city feels that way

I think its something we take for granted in this city and in this country - we don't realize just how good our life here is

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Why the knee-jerk reaction against CCTV? Look at how invaluable it was in tracking those terrorists in London, it would do the same here.

As to the private video you refer to from smartphones etc, it was as much a problem as a help. You could certainly see in many cases rioters acting out for the cameras. If they didn't have that audience it would likely have disippated far faster.

And the same CCTV technology was quite useful for the Chinese authorities to monitor the democracy demonstrators during the weeks of Tiananmen Square protests in 1989. Many people were easily rounded up by the Chinese internal security forces by using the CCTV videos to track people going home after protesting for democratic change at Tiananmen Square.

It's a double-edged sword.

[Conrad Yablonski]

Anyone experiencing large street festivals in Latin America-Carnival in Brasil or Colombia-knows that a large police presence is a must-in Colombia you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a cop or soldier.

People are quite bent out of shape but rioting like we had here is relatively rare-however it's also true that most stores have metal shutters like a garage door.

[Millennium2002]

This is really old, I know, but with the recent London riots, people have been drawing comparisons between the two:

CTV News: Vancouver police defend lack of riot charges

CTV News.ca Staff
Date: Wed. Aug. 17 2011 10:35 PM ET

While British police have charged 1,000 suspects in the riots around London this month, Vancouver police said Wednesday it can't be compared to the lack of charges following the violent Stanley Cup riots.

Reading some of the comments attached to this story makes me want to vomit... because some people keep thinking that things are the same and that Vancouver's police were just lazy or something, when in reality there are many laws and procedures that differ between the two jurisdictions.

I have to say... the justice system in the UK does seem to be so much faster especially when the police themselves can recommend charges without having to rely on middleman prosecutors and a high requirement for sufficient evidence to pursue the charges in court. Perhaps that should be reinstated here as well...?

As for the use of surveillance cameras and microphones by the police, there seems to be two extremes at this point: one where they are restricted to a minimum (Vancouver), and one where they are encouraged to the maximum (London). As much as cameras are wonderful for security during moments of tension and disorder, in other cases I don't think people would be too happy about their lives being visible to others, even if it was for supposedly beneficial purposes. Perhaps some middle ground can be used so cameras can be placed a bit more liberally in areas where there is a high likelihood of damages following a riot (mostly commercial and high-density residential areas).

And finally, as much as convictions and sentences for the rioters is good payback for the damage they have done, and I rightly approve of the fact that each and every rioter should face justice, at the same time both systems will have to figure out how to manage these people in the future. Some may learn from their mistakes, and some may not. The key would be to ensure that those who do work their way out of their own mess are given the means to be integrated back into society and not unnecessarily punished harshly (as that'd increase their disrespect for society), while the rest don't get an easy escape.