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  #1121  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2010, 7:07 PM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
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Great, that's all this city needed, another special interest group.

I suggest we decide the site location by referendum. It is after all, a decision that will affect all citizens, and all citizens should have an equal say as to where it goes. It can easily be added to the October ballot. And if a decision can be delayed to August 31, what big a deal would it be to set a firm, final decision for election night on October 25?
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  #1122  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2010, 7:07 PM
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Well you also read the interview with Mr. Young on RTH.

If it's West Harbour, then no Cats. No Cats = no PanAm Stadium. No PanAm Stadium = probably no velodrome, no track events nothing. Hamilton would no longer be included in the PanAm Games. And would soon no longer have a CFL team.

If we insist on the West Harbour, it won't be built. It's a vote to build it a York U, off the 401.

Brilliant plan guys. I hope you get your stupid west harbour location. Then you'll see what a huge mistake it is. We'll end up with nothing... and less.
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  #1123  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2010, 7:08 PM
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I would call Mr. Young's bluff.
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  #1124  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2010, 7:13 PM
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I think it should've went to a referendum vote too Mark. Council knows Jack Squat. First Collins protected (so he thought) his little fiefdom and thought it would score him political points within his ward by removing Confed Park. And that started everything downhill. Suddenly if Collins can unilaterally eliminate the prime location that the Cats, Brailey, Foxcroft, the CFL and PanAm wanted, then every other councilor thought they could start acting unilaterally too.

Look if we insist on West Harbour, we WON'T GET ANYTHING!!!! Get it through your heads. I half want the city to keep insisting on West Harbour just to show you guys.
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  #1125  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2010, 7:16 PM
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I would call Mr. Young's bluff.
It's not a bluff he's at least holding a pocket pair of Jacks. The city better be holding something better, but they aren't. He just raised. The city goes all-in then, and risks losing it all.

PanAm has already said, the Cats need to be a partner of the stadium or they won't build it. How many times does this need to be repeated?
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  #1126  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2010, 8:40 PM
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1) The city's bargaining position is just as promising. They hold the purse strings, and Young has no guarantee whatsoever that he will be able to relocate the Ticats elsewhere.

2) The economic downside of acceding to Young's demand for a stadium on the periphery, on the other hand, is at least equal to the misfortune that would befall the city if he were able to go elsewhere.

Worst case (and unlikely) scenario: No Pan-Am games, no Ticats, but (relatively speaking) buckets of money to spend on revitalizing the lower city in general, and the waterfront in particular, which is what the Future Fund is supposed to be doing anyways.

3) The problem with submitting the issue to a city-wide referendum is that people who only recently, and not by choice, became citizens of the city will be effectively settling the issue of where to put a team that has been a cultural institution in the lower city for decades. Not surprisingly, and with some justification, these citizens by and large have little or no interest in the fate of the lower city, or in retaining and growing the lower city's unique cultural synergy.

If the councilors they elect to office are any indication, these citizens will vote to have the stadium anywhere but in or near the city's downtown. Nor would this vote represent anywhere near an accurate cross-section of Ticats fans. What about fans arriving from Toronto or Niagara via GO transit? What about fans from further afield who want their game to be part of an evening's entertainment in a vibrant city? What about prospective fans (students and recently installed young professionals, for instance) who would not hold a vote but could/would be attracted to a downtown entertainment destination, walking distance from Hess and James North?

4) In any case, waiting until October 25 is not an option, and August 10 does not give either side in the debate adequate time to marshal the resources necessary for a referendum.
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  #1127  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2010, 8:57 PM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
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Originally Posted by geoff's two cents View Post
The problem with submitting the issue to a city-wide referendum is that people who only recently, and not by choice, became citizens of the city will be effectively settling the issue of where to put a team that has been a cultural institution in the lower city for decades. Not surprisingly, and with some justification, these citizens by and large have little or no interest in the fate of the lower city, or in retaining and growing the lower city's unique cultural synergy.

If the councilors they elect to office are any indication, these citizens will vote to have the stadium anywhere but in or near the city's downtown. Nor would this vote represent anywhere near an accurate cross-section of Ticats fans. What about fans arriving from Toronto or Niagara via GO transit? What about fans from further afield who want their game to be part of an evening's entertainment in a vibrant city? What about prospective fans (students and recently installed young professionals, for instance) who would not hold a vote but could/would be attracted to a downtown entertainment destination, walking distance from Hess and James North?
The $60 million is coming from the city's coffers, therefore every citizen has a say in how it should be spent. This is not a decision just for lower city residents, it is not a decision for Ticat fans to make. It is a decision all citizens have a stake in and therefore all citizens have a right to say how it is spent. The city can present its case to voters, as can the Ticat organization. Then the informed voter can make their choice. It's a little thing called democracy.

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In any case, waiting until October 25 is not an option
Says who? Why is it not an option?
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  #1128  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2010, 10:03 PM
Anders Knudsen Anders Knudsen is offline
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No Cats = no PanAm Stadium.
do you have a source on this? Has the govt actually said they would pull funding if the ti-cats move? I've read rumours in various media but never heard it from any minister.
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  #1129  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2010, 11:00 PM
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  #1130  
Old Posted Jul 14, 2010, 5:46 AM
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What an awesome concept. I really like the design of that stadium and the surrounding area. It's too bad the city doesn't have 500 million to build it and the accompanying facilities.
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  #1131  
Old Posted Jul 14, 2010, 11:15 AM
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Stadium debate ramps up
Campaign takes form on street, online to keep west harbour site

July 14, 2010
John Kernaghan and Paul Morse
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/807248

Cats and rats are symbols of a surge of opposition to the football team's proposed east Mountain stadium site.

'Paws off' is the motto of the citizen campaign Our City Our Future, which aims to head off the Tiger-Cats bid to move the Pan Am stadium site from the west harbour.

And a James Street storefront displays a group of stuffed rats fleeing a ship and chasing a trail of play money. That mocks some city councillors willing to move the stadium after Ticat owner Bob Young proposed $74 million toward construction and operation.

Our City Our Future says the west harbour location provides a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to revitalize the city.

"There definitely is a groundswell of support for west harbour," said organizer Ryan McGreal. "The e-mails are just flying around."

Graham Crawford, owner of HIStory and HERitage museum and gallery, has launched the storefront poster campaign slamming the city for appearing to throw in the towel on the west harbour stadium and an integrated urban plan.

"This decision is so big and the implications so broad," he said, "that to use a suburban site flies in the face of brownfield remediation, public transit, urban intensification and saving greenspace, all of which Premier Dalton McGuinty says he wants to make happen."

McGreal had the website ourcityourfuture.ca up and running yesterday with a proposed motion for city council to back its original stadium site when it makes the Pan Am facility call next month.

Crawford's posters criticize city councillors for "falling all over themselves thanking Bob Young for his generosity," and chastise facilitator Michael Fenn for overstepping his role by recommending the east Mountain site in addition to the west harbour.

The rats did not go over well with Councillor Bob Bratina, a consistent critic of the west harbour site.

Crawford said Bratina sent him an e-mail yesterday.

"In it, he said, 'I don't find your rat-ship metaphor funny or insightful.'" The Spectator was unable to reach Bratina yesterday.

McGreal, of Raise The Hammer, a group dedicated to making the city more vibrant, said the surprise introduction of the east Mountain location is mobilizing citizens to make sure city tax dollars and other public funds are used to best advantage in an area that can connect downtown with the waterfront.

Dave Kuruc, owner of Mixed Media on James North, says the east Mountain is not a good location for a stadium and that the city should stick with the Setting Sail master plan for the west harbour.

But a west harbour stadium will not help cultural development on James Street North because the city doesn't know how to connect the two, he said.

"I'd rather see the stadium in downtown."
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  #1132  
Old Posted Jul 14, 2010, 11:19 AM
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Ticats' site needs costly roadwork

July 14, 2010
Emma Reilly
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/807245

The Tiger-Cats' vision of a "driveway-to-driveway" stadium has the potential to cost taxpayers millions in road upgrades.

Councillor Brad Clark says the east Mountain site, which the football club prefers for its easy highway access, will require more than $8 million worth of improvements to surrounding roads to handle increased traffic
.

It's one of the major questions the city will be addressing over the next few weeks as it studies the two proposed locations for the Pan Am stadium: the west harbour or the east Mountain. Ticats owner Bob Young recently offered $15 million toward the stadium construction and $3 million a year in operating costs if council chooses east Mountain.

According to Clark, who represents the Stoney Creek ward that includes the east Mountain site, Stone Church, Pritchard, Highland, Dartnall and Trinity Church roads will need enhancements to accommodate stadium traffic.

The city says widening a roadway from two to four lanes with a sidewalk on one side costs $1.9 million a kilometre.

That means upgrades to Stone Church Road alone -- which Clark says should be widened to five lanes for two kilometres between Dartnall Road and Winterberry Drive -- would cost upward of $4 million.

"It is doable? Yes. Will it be a challenge? Most definitely," Clark said.

Clark has also called for an on-off ramp from the Red Hill parkway. According to the Ministry of Transportation, the average cost of a 500-metre, two-lane on-off ramp is $4 million. Traditionally, these costs are shared between municipalities and the province, with the province picking up anywhere from 50 to 100 per cent of the tab.

Rob Rossini, the city's general manager of finance, says these issues will be included in a report being prepared for council for an Aug. 10 meeting. Other factors like property acquisition, water and wastewater servicing, and utility relocation will also influence the total cost of infrastructure upgrades.

The city has already planned, but not scheduled, upgrades to Trinity Church Road, Stone Church, Dartnall, Highland and Pritchard roads. Development charges, especially from the Red Hill Business Park, are meant to pay for those projects.

"As in any greenfield development, infrastructure improvements will depend the pace of development and related revenues," Rossini said yesterday in an e-mail.

However, if the city needs to fast-track those road projects, development charges alone wouldn't be enough to cover those costs. That would leave the city on the hook. Also, as a city facility, the stadium wouldn't generate development charges in the same way as a private development.

"It was a planned phasing-in of the development," Clark said. "But now everything has to be expedited if the east Mountain site is picked."
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  #1133  
Old Posted Jul 14, 2010, 7:25 PM
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Keep going with west harbour and you'll see that we'll not only not have the PanAm Games but we'll also lose the Cats
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  #1134  
Old Posted Jul 14, 2010, 8:28 PM
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Keep going with west harbour and you'll see that we'll not only not have the PanAm Games but we'll also lose the Cats
Seriously, where would they move?

I say, call Young's bluff. He'll threaten to move them, but he won't. Why? Because there's no where to go. And, he's local and would be crucified for moving the team. The worst case for him is that he'll sell.

Besides, if they play in Stoney Creek, they may as well play in Halifax.
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  #1135  
Old Posted Jul 14, 2010, 9:56 PM
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realcity: Are the TiCats really worth losing Katz and a shot at the NHL?
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  #1136  
Old Posted Jul 14, 2010, 10:08 PM
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Stoney Creek. They should change their name to the Niagara TiCats then.
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  #1137  
Old Posted Jul 14, 2010, 10:51 PM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
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Originally Posted by oldcoote View Post
Seriously, where would they move?

I say, call Young's bluff. He'll threaten to move them, but he won't. Why? Because there's no where to go. And, he's local and would be crucified for moving the team. The worst case for him is that he'll sell.

Besides, if they play in Stoney Creek, they may as well play in Halifax.
No where to go? I beg to differ. First off, the moment word that a compromise had not been reached betweenthe city and the Ticats, three different GTA municipalities contacted Young to feel him out on relocation. They know the cash follows him. Wherever the Ticats are is where the Pan Am stadium will go.

Young could also move his team anywhere in the Niagara Penninsula and still keep the Ticats branding and the fan base. Further afield, both Halifax and Ottawa are actively seeking a CFL team.

Bob Young is not a bluffer.

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realcity: Are the TiCats really worth losing Katz and a shot at the NHL?
They are mutually exclusive. Katz primary interest is in Copps. Pan Am wasn't even on his radar when he first approached the city two years ago.

Besides, I do not have much faith or trust in Katz, given the shenanigans he has been pulling in Edmonton. I get the feling he is just blowing smoke.

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Stoney Creek. They should change their name to the Niagara TiCats then.
Actually, Stoney Creek is part of the City of Hamilton, so no name change would really be needed should the location of the stadium end up there.
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  #1138  
Old Posted Jul 14, 2010, 11:40 PM
dennis1 dennis1 is offline
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Originally Posted by markbarbera View Post
No where to go? I beg to differ. First off, the moment word that a compromise had not been reached betweenthe city and the Ticats, three different GTA municipalities contacted Young to feel him out on relocation. They know the cash follows him. Wherever the Ticats are is where the Pan Am stadium will go.

Young could also move his team anywhere in the Niagara Penninsula and still keep the Ticats branding and the fan base. Further afield, both Halifax and Ottawa are actively seeking a CFL team.

Bob Young is not a bluffer.



They are mutually exclusive. Katz primary interest is in Copps. Pan Am wasn't even on his radar when he first approached the city two years ago.

Besides, I do not have much faith or trust in Katz, given the shenanigans he has been pulling in Edmonton. I get the feling he is just blowing smoke.



Actually, Stoney Creek is part of the City of Hamilton, so no name change would really be needed should the location of the stadium end up there.
Thanks for that. I'm just thinking if the move out of the former city of Hamilton they shouldn't used the name anymore.

I feel Katz is legit. Edm is dragging their feet like always and that's why Cgy passed them is the business centre of Western Canada.
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  #1139  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2010, 12:12 AM
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I'm sure the CFL would step in if there was a potential of the Ticats moving out of Hamilton.
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  #1140  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2010, 12:30 AM
geoff's two cents geoff's two cents is offline
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Originally Posted by markbarbera View Post
No where to go? I beg to differ. First off, the moment word that a compromise had not been reached betweenthe city and the Ticats, three different GTA municipalities contacted Young to feel him out on relocation. They know the cash follows him. Wherever the Ticats are is where the Pan Am stadium will go.

Young could also move his team anywhere in the Niagara Penninsula and still keep the Ticats branding and the fan base. Further afield, both Halifax and Ottawa are actively seeking a CFL team.

Bob Young is not a bluffer.
In terms of the CFL actually being in favor of a prospective move, however, Young has nothing. It's all pie-in-the-sky speculation if the league itself is not on board with the idea. (Think Phoenix Coyotes).

And, as things currently stand, the league has an long-established football community in Hamilton, versus a less successful venue in Ottawa, and untried (and unverifiable) levels of long-term community support elsewhere. From the league's perspective, the case for remaining in Hamilton will far outweigh moving the franchise elsewhere.

Last edited by geoff's two cents; Jul 15, 2010 at 1:24 AM.
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