Canadian transit ridership per capita

[brickell]

As I said before, in many cities I've lived in, it always comes down to funding. We don't get federal or state/province funding for the operation of the lines. Further, very few places (at least in the sunbelt) like to commit general funding to operations.

So where do Canadian cities get the money to run 10 minute busses to the further reaches of their cities?

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by brickell

As I said before, in many cities I've lived in, it always comes down to funding. We don't get federal or state/province funding for the operation of the lines. Further, very few places (at least in the sunbelt) like to commit general funding to operations.

So where do Canadian cities get the money to run 10 minute busses to the further reaches of their cities?

We get far less money actually than American systems. Canadian systems actually recover more of their operating costs from fares than do American and European systems.

[Gordo]

That's not "getting less money". That's getting less money from one source (government funding) and getting more money from another source (fares).

Unfortunately in the US, higher fares are often decried as "racist" or "screwing the poor". There are also many funding schemes (federal and state) that require certain levels of service to a huge area (meaning service can't be increased in areas that need more) or require certain levels of fares (meaning fares can't be raised to finance expansion). Transit is rarely linked to zoning too, which is only recently starting to change in some areas, though not in others (Canadian government of different levels in general has more control over zoning than their American counterparts - there are exceptions, of course).

[J. Will]

Originally Posted by brickell

As I said before, in many cities I've lived in, it always comes down to funding. We don't get federal or state/province funding for the operation of the lines. Further, very few places (at least in the sunbelt) like to commit general funding to operations.

So where do Canadian cities get the money to run 10 minute busses to the further reaches of their cities?

Fares are generally higher in Canada. In both Toronto and Mississauga standard cash fare is $2.75 per ride. I get a monthly pass on a long-term discount plan for $100/month (it's around $110 per month for a single pass I think). But even at $100/month it's still a hell of a lot cheaper than owning a car.

[jaxg8r1]

Originally Posted by nname

Where do you get this number from? Even multiplying the daily boarding by 365 doesn't get close to this much.

From the official statistics, the annual boarding seems to be 96,918,000.

I just used the information on that pdf file (link) I posted. Although looking at the information, I'm not sure how to reconcile it versus the Trimet numbers.

I just used the "year to date" information (which goes all the way through September) and divided it into a monthly rate, and just multiplied it out to get a rough figure. But now that I think about it, Trimet's data does seem more realistic. I have no clue

[J. Will]

Originally Posted by jaxg8r1

I just used the information on that pdf file (link) I posted. Although looking at the information, I'm not sure how to reconcile it versus the Trimet numbers.

I just used the "year to date" information (which goes all the way through September) and divided it into a monthly rate, and just multiplied it out to get a rough figure. But now that I think about it, Trimet's data does seem more realistic. I have no clue

Your numbers are way off though. Using the numbers you provided, you miscalculated.

[jaxg8r1]

Originally Posted by J. Will

Your numbers are way off though. Using the numbers you provided, you miscalculated.

I think I may've used 07 (through Sept) numbers instead of 08, however I think you are right because looking at them now I was in fact way off.

I've really got to stop drinking so much coffee then doing math

Using the correct/updated information, it appears as though if you averaged it all out, Trimet would have somewhere in teh neighborhood of 104 million boardings per year this year.

Divide that by their service area population of 1.6 million it comes out to 65.
Remarkable close to the numbers posted on the first page, and a complete waste of time for everyone haha...sorry about that!

[rsbear]

Originally Posted by J. Will

Fares are generally higher in Canada. In both Toronto and Mississauga standard cash fare is $2.75 per ride.

Holly crap. A subway ride in LA is $1.25.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by J. Will

There is little difference in the built environment between typical Canadian and American suburbs. They both have wide, pedestrian-unfriendly arterial roads, subdivisions with only a few entrances off those roads, winding cul-de-sac road layouts which can turn a 500 foot "as the crow flies" walk into a 2000 foot walk,

Uh, no.

First of all, there aren't actually that many cul-de-sacs, at least in Toronto's suburbs there aren't. Most suburban streets are actually crescents. Some new subdivisions have no cul-de-sacs at all, like the ones in Markham.

Secondly, there are few pedestrian barriers along the suburban arterials. Most residents can walk directly to the arterial road. In the older subdivisions, there are pedestrian walkways between the houses that allow access to the arterials, while in the new subdivisions there are no houses blocking access to the arterials at all.

Don't believe me? You can go to Google Maps and check for yourself.

Originally Posted by J. Will

Residential highrises may be a little more common in Canadian suburbs, but they rarely contribute to density or an urban built environment. They're usually set back from the street surrounded by lots of useless open space, and rarely have ground floor commercial space. Because of all the "grounds" surrounding them, their total residential density is often no higher than if townhomes or even single family homes occupied the same space.

Hurontario St in Mississauga must just be an average suburban arterial then, in terms of density.

[ikerrin]

Originally Posted by rsbear

Holly crap. I subway ride in LA is $1.25.

At $2.75, Toronto fares look high, but compared to London England, they are pretty cheap. I think inner-city one way trips cost about $5.00 or more, there. Plus in most Canadian cities you can get a day pass for under $10.00. In Ottawa, your ticket allows you to hop on and off the bus over the course of at least 90 minutes. Does that exist in the US?

As for cost recovery, most Ontario cities collect more than 50% of their costs in ticket sales. In Northern New York (Buffalo, Rochester) it is about 25%. Interestingly, GO Transit collects about 90% of costs through tickets, but I think there is a rail transit service in New York that actually makes a profit.

Finally, Canadian single family homes tend to be built on much smaller lots than the US. We have a lot of suburban development around our cities but not so much ex-urban development. There is less incidence of people living on the other side of the city limits and paying low taxes but using the city's services so transit gets paid for out of property taxes. In Ottawa, where I live, you have people living way out in the boonies in farm country, but who are still within the city limits. So, they are paying (reduced) transit rates as part of their property tax. In return, we run morning and evening express bus service from these communities into and out of the city. We still are not as good a Vancouver, were you can take a bus up Gross Mountain for a days skiing.

[J. Will]

I lived in Mississauga for 20 years and it was filled with cul-de-sacs. Still is. My parents live on one. As for Hurontario, it may be denser, but look at other highrises in Erin Mills, Meadowvale, etc. Very low density despite 20+ story towers.

I can't get it to upload to photobucket right now for some reason, but I just took a snapshot of the immediate area surrounding Square One ("downtown Mississauga"), and counted more than 20 cul-de-sacs. The area I grew up in particular had load of cul-de-sacs. The newer developments may not have any, but the older ones do.

[rsbear]

Originally Posted by ikerrin

Plus in most Canadian cities you can get a day pass for under $10.00.

Same here, but for less than $10 (or even less than $5.00 in some cities).

Originally Posted by ikerrin

In Ottawa, your ticket allows you to hop on and off the bus over the course of at least 90 minutes. Does that exist in the US?

Yes, at least in some cities. If I remember correctly, in Portland you have two hours. But it's good for only one direction, so you can't buy a ticket in the burbs, ride downtown, and use that same ticket to go back to the same burg (but if you're going cross-town to another suburb the ticket is valid).

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Doady

Hurontario St in Mississauga must just be an average suburban arterial then, in terms of density.

Yes, Hurontario Street is "typical" suburban Toronto...

So, I guess for the U.S., Jersey City or Hoboken are typical?

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by ikerrin

So, they are paying (reduced) transit rates as part of their property tax. In return, we run morning and evening express bus service from these communities into and out of the city. We still are not as good a Vancouver, were you can take a bus up Gross Mountain for a days skiing.

How is this any different from the U.S.?

You think there is any part of the four-state NYC MSA that lacks express buses or trains into Manhattan?

You think there is any ski resort within three hours that doesn't have bus service from NYC?

None of these characteristics are indicative of particularly good suburban transit.

[agrant]

Originally Posted by ikerrin

We still are not as good a Vancouver, were you can take a bus up Gross Mountain for a days skiing.

Sorry to nitpick, but... you must mean Grouse Mountain. There are no roads up Grouse Mountain, at least that I'm aware of. You have to take a gondolla.

[ikerrin]

Originally Posted by Crawford

How is this any different from the U.S.?

You think there is any part of the four-state NYC MSA that lacks express buses or trains into Manhattan?

You think there is any ski resort within three hours that doesn't have bus service from NYC?

None of these characteristics are indicative of particularly good suburban transit.

Dude, Chill.

I don't think anyone is arguing that NYC doesn't have great transit. I am just saying that a key challenge in providing transit to suburban regions is having adequate tax revenue for service, having a regional transit system is key for getting good ridership numbers.

This thread is about ridership levels and those are influenced by how easy it is to get around. As people have said, NYC, Washington and TO have good commuter systems for bringing people in from the suburbs. One thing that Toronto is reasonably good at is suburb to suburb service. Its possible to live in one suburb (say Ajax) and make a connection to another suburb (Richmond Hill) without going through the downtown. But, it could be a lot better.

It seems to me that there are three levels that lead to good transit.

Step one is central city service. Step two, suburb to downtown service. Step three is suburb to suburb service. I don't know what comes after that. I've never seen it in North America.

[ikerrin]

Originally Posted by agrant

Sorry to nitpick, but... you must mean Grouse Mountain. There are no roads up Grouse Mountain, at least that I'm aware of. You have to take a gondolla.

Oops, Grouse Mountain. Still, the bus service is pretty terrific. Being able to take a city bus to the base of a mountain is sweet.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Yes, Hurontario Street is "typical" suburban Toronto...

Of course it is not typical. That is the whole point, isn't it?

Hurontario IS typical of suburban corridors developed between 1950 and 1970. Other such corridors include Don Mills, Finch, Jane, Victoria Park, Eglinton, Sheppard, etc.

I just think it's naive to think that these kind of corridors have nothing to do Toronto's high suburban transit ridership, that's all. Especially considering they just happen to have some the busiest transit routes in the the area. Perhaps it is just a coincidence.

So, I guess for the U.S., Jersey City or Hoboken are typical?

Jersey City and Hoboken are not even suburban, having been developed before WWII. So no, I guess they do not represent typical suburbia.

In 1930, Jersey City had a population of 316,715, bigger than all but a few Canadian cities. In contrast, in 1931, Mississauga had a population of 12,231. Big difference.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by J. Will

I lived in Mississauga for 20 years and it was filled with cul-de-sacs. Still is. My parents live on one. As for Hurontario, it may be denser, but look at other highrises in Erin Mills, Meadowvale, etc. Very low density despite 20+ story towers.

Imagine a 20 storey tower with 200+ units vs 200+ houses. Do you honestly believe that 20 storey tower takes up as much space as 200 houses???

I can't get it to upload to photobucket right now for some reason, but I just took a snapshot of the immediate area surrounding Square One ("downtown Mississauga"), and counted more than 20 cul-de-sacs. The area I grew up in particular had load of cul-de-sacs. The newer developments may not have any, but the older ones do.

I never said that Mississauga never had any cul-de-sacs at all. The example I showed had one too. My point is that the cul-de-sacs and crescents are not designed to hinder pedestrian travel.

[J. Will]

Originally Posted by Doady

Imagine a 20 storey tower with 200+ units vs 200+ houses. Do you honestly believe that 20 storey tower takes up as much space as 200 houses???

In some cases, yes when it comes to population density. A tower averages far fewer people per unit than a house. And look at some of the towers across from South Common Mall, or the newer ones at Winston Churchill and Eglinton, or Collegeway between Mississauga Rd. and South Millway. When you include all the open space around them they can easily take up as much space as many dozens of townhomes at the very least.

I never said that Mississauga never had any cul-de-sacs at all. The example I showed had one too. My point is that the cul-de-sacs and crescents are not designed to hinder pedestrian travel.

That may have been what you meant, but it's not what you said. You said that there aren't that many cul-de-sacs. I bet if you scoured MapQuest you could easily find 200+ cul-de-sacs in Mississauga alone. And they do hinder pedestrian travel at least somewhat because most of them don't have pedestrian thru-passages at the end.