Tivoli Theatre | ? | 22 fl | Planning

[StEC]

Oh please be 40 floors... something will need to break up that glut of 30 floor buildings that will take over this entire area! And yes one parking lot holdout remaining! I'm dreaming of 40, 50 & 70+ floor skyscraper trio taking this lot that will be the new gold standard development in Hamilton with a large format grocery store and a full service LCBO amongst other shopping and dining options in the podium! One can dream.....

[mikevbar1]

Originally Posted by Chronamut

..and yet that one parking lot remains entirely empty.. one has to wonder if it will ever be developed..

maybe they should convert it into a REAL park..

They’re waiting for someone to break the limit I’m sure give us something really great.

[King&James]

Originally Posted by thomax

Some potential new information on the Tivoli redevelopment from the 73 Hughson Street North Urban Design Brief (PDF).

On page 4,

"3) 108 JAMES ST. N., ONE 35 AND ONE 40 STOREY TOWER, MIXED USE TOWER"


source

Someone on this forum has to do a title search on that full block of opportunity. I remain a sceptic, but wow if all that residential get built, how insanely different it will be and certainly would not have predicted that this quadrant of downtown would ever be the most populated area of all the lands available.

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by mikevbar1

They’re waiting for someone to break the limit I’m sure give us something really great.

Honestly I think something huge here would just make this entire area feel like you crammed a buncha pencils into a cup.

I'd rather see something really small go here to make the buildings around it appear taller and more impressive, kinda like a central park feeling in new york where its like an oasis surrounded by tall buildings. Cuz what's the point of being in any of those tall buildings if they're just gonna build something huge right beside it and block your view of .. well.. anything? Need staggered heights - not just all 30+ story everything.

I want the city to still have a level of walkability and not just have giant monstrosities on every block - like imo the first stretch of king william still has good walkability - with anything giant being set back a ways. I'd prefer they keep to that feel. 6 story small stuff in the forefront and the skyscrapers pushed back so as not to be noticeable from close up.

I honestly don't understand the obsession with height - noone at ground level sees anything past the first 6 stories anyways, only looks "impressive" from far away and the designs are usually so cookie butter bland its really just the height that's a wow factor, not the architecture itself.

I wouldn't even care personally about height in this city - torontos height always gives me a bit of anxiety - I'd rather just all the podiums look good. Hamilton is at a loss atm for high quality tower buildings so I'd rather NOT something huge and horrible go in - we already have our landmark dildo - we don't need another even blander even higher dildo to rival it lol..

If we're not careful our city is going to have no warmth left and become just a giant cold city where regions all isolate from each other - can't support intensification while also sacrificing what makes hamilton hamilton and inviting in the first place.

[ScreamingViking]

Tower height =/= walkability. Variety is important, but I think there's going to be plenty of that even if most of the core's development is tall buildings vs. mid- and low-rises (which I think will get built too).

What the city needs to do is ensure that the lower 1-2 floors are "friendly" -- have developers include retail and services (in spaces that actually get leased) and the DeRP should offer guidance on breaking up glass walls to help the podiums feel more varied and less sterile.

Took me a few mins to orient myself around that building diagram, in terms of the direction. Thanks for posting it thomax (and the design brief) and it's great to have you contributing again... seems like it's been a while!

[thomax]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

Thanks for posting it thomax (and the design brief) and it's great to have you contributing again... seems like it's been a while!

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

Tower height =/= walkability. Variety is important, but I think there's going to be plenty of that even if most of the core's development is tall buildings vs. mid- and low-rises (which I think will get built too).

What the city needs to do is ensure that the lower 1-2 floors are "friendly" -- have developers include retail and services (in spaces that actually get leased) and the DeRP should offer guidance on breaking up glass walls to help the podiums feel more varied and less sterile.

Took me a few mins to orient myself around that building diagram, in terms of the direction. Thanks for posting it thomax (and the design brief) and it's great to have you contributing again... seems like it's been a while!

Agreed, its the giant glass fronts that make it feel sterile and less "walkable" - having multiple small storefronts gives a warmer vibe. That and with everyone buying things online and malls there are less and less things to fill these storefronts WITH to peruse.

Sure it's great to have all these GIANT storefronts - but I mean look at the olympia club, it's STILL vacant the first floor. Restaurants are nice, granted, but I dunno, I crave more.. and not starshmucks coffees with everyone sitting around staring at their phones like zombies lol.. a high society ballroom would be cool

I think part of the issue is there is a lack of small businesses anymore - we live our lives online most of the time. People also work from home now so there is so little to actually fill these buildings WITH except people, gonna become another bedroom community..

We need a playdium or something, or an amusement park lol. Maybe one of those old creepy amusement park ones lol. Thatd be cool, esp on the pier, with say a giant ferris wheel out on a dock - I tire of having to go to vaughan to get my thrills hahaha..

Or recommission the Heida and have boat rides

But really what I meant by walkability is there has to be a reason FOR people to peruse these streets other than just "I live there and there's a grocery store there" - versus "lets go to x street, there are shops and clubs and restaurants and bars and entertainment there for the night" - past king william and john, well, there's nothing until you hit the theatre aquarius. Well, unless you count the underground.. we need to patch up our "entertainment corridor crawls" and actually guide people along a path to entertainment - they have money, they wanna spend it, show them where to spend it logically without bouncing all over the place. Look at niagara on the lake - that stretch downtown is just AMAZING and you almost feel excited going down it.

Also imo there should be a law that states that if you knock down a building in a historical area the podium HAS to match the historical vibe around it. None of this "cheap chic/ellen faircloud-esque podium" crap - we need to force developers to be more thoughtful of how buildings appear on the GROUND - we have an entire century or 2's worth of beautiful crafted buildings that are all getting demolished and being replaced with what a child could recreate in a cadd program with various cheap boxes. It's insulting considering that anyone who films movies here does it ONLY in the historical area because of our buildings - tha'ts what hamilton is valued for outside of hamilton - is our grit and our architecture. There is no reason you can't have both a giant modern tower and a beautiful stone and brick facade - look at william thomas building, or even, halfheartedly, cobalt towers. You satisfy everyone that way. Modern bland is not gonna age well, stone (or at least the concretey stuff core urban uses) and brick and glass are timeless and forever. Vrancors buildings look dated even before he finishes them.

At least #4 on that buildings renders looked good from the ground level.

*gets off his soap box lol*

[TheRitsman]

I think the Olympia being vacant has a lot more to do with King St being what it is, and that Core Urban is picky about what it rents to.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by Chronamut

We need a playdium or something, or an amusement park lol. Maybe one of those old creepy amusement park ones lol. Thatd be cool, esp on the pier, with say a giant ferris wheel out on a dock - I tire of having to go to vaughan to get my thrills hahaha..

Or recommission the Heida and have boat rides

But really what I meant by walkability is there has to be a reason FOR people to peruse these streets other than just "I live there and there's a grocery store there" - versus "lets go to x street, there are shops and clubs and restaurants and bars and entertainment there for the night" - past king william and john, well, there's nothing until you hit the theatre aquarius. Well, unless you count the underground.. we need to patch up our "entertainment corridor crawls" and actually guide people along a path to entertainment - they have money, they wanna spend it, show them where to spend it logically without bouncing all over the place. Look at niagara on the lake - that stretch downtown is just AMAZING and you almost feel excited going down it.

Also imo there should be a law that states that if you knock down a building in a historical area the podium HAS to match the historical vibe around it. None of this "cheap chic/ellen faircloud-esque podium" crap - we need to force developers to be more thoughtful of how buildings appear on the GROUND - we have an entire century or 2's worth of beautiful crafted buildings that are all getting demolished and being replaced with what a child could recreate in a cadd program with various cheap boxes.

I don't know about "laws" around historical stuff, but there should at least be property tax penalties if spaces remain vacant.

An amusement park is an amusing idea. A liveable neighbourhood that attracts people from elsewhere in the area is the goal I envision.

The Haida though... to me, she's off limits. I feel like she's a memorial to our veterans, as much as she's a museum to Canada's naval history.

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

I don't know about "laws" around historical stuff, but there should at least be property tax penalties if spaces remain vacant.

An amusement park is an amusing idea. A liveable neighbourhood that attracts people from elsewhere in the area is the goal I envision.

The Haida though... to me, she's off limits. I feel like she's a memorial to our veterans, as much as she's a museum to Canada's naval history.

But wouldn't it be cool to see her on the waters, even if its just like once a year or something to parade her around.. many people are probably not even aware she exists - I wasn't for the longest time..

an amusement park would be an awesome idea. We could then bring back AquaFest too! I loved AquaFest as a kid.. Maybe that giant plot of land down there they're still deciding what to do with..

well we sorta already have laws around it - now if you knock down an old building you have to keep the heritage facade, like they did with william thomas, and were even forced to repair it I believe.. I believe that's a good start.. if we're not going to rebuild heritage least we can do is maintain what we had. I wish we had kept some of the tivoli's exterior...

I always am happy when someone puts dentures on a classy on building lady downtown though - so many buildings you can tell were extremely beautiful back in their day and its only the ravages of time that have caused them to look derelict. The Lister block for example. At least the urban sprawl actually saved our downtown instead of them knocking it all down for bland 80s crap in the 80s like a lot of other downtowns fell victim to. For me gore park will always be THE core of the downtown. It'll be nice when all the buildings around it are restored and renovated.

[mikevbar1]

Originally Posted by Chronamut

Honestly I think something huge here would just make this entire area feel like you crammed a buncha pencils into a cup.

I'd rather see something really small go here to make the buildings around it appear taller and more impressive, kinda like a central park feeling in new york where its like an oasis surrounded by tall buildings. Cuz what's the point of being in any of those tall buildings if they're just gonna build something huge right beside it and block your view of .. well.. anything? Need staggered heights - not just all 30+ story everything.

I want the city to still have a level of walkability and not just have giant monstrosities on every block - like imo the first stretch of king william still has good walkability - with anything giant being set back a ways. I'd prefer they keep to that feel. 6 story small stuff in the forefront and the skyscrapers pushed back so as not to be noticeable from close up.

I honestly don't understand the obsession with height - noone at ground level sees anything past the first 6 stories anyways, only looks "impressive" from far away and the designs are usually so cookie butter bland its really just the height that's a wow factor, not the architecture itself.

I wouldn't even care personally about height in this city - Toronto height always gives me a bit of anxiety - I'd rather just all the podiums look good. Hamilton is at a loss atm for high-quality tower buildings so I'd rather NOT something huge and horrible go in - we already have our landmark dildo - we don't need another even blander even higher dildo to rival it lol..

If we're not careful our city is going to have no warmth left and become just a giant cold city where regions all isolate from each other - can't support intensification while also sacrificing what makes hamilton hamilton and inviting in the first place.

The space is very well-suited for a good cultural institution- not necessarily a park again (we tried that, and I'd rather we leverage a new lot for something else than waste valuable downtown land on rectifying a poorly-planned park next door than just fixing the damn thing) but more like a new library, community centre, secondary or post-secondary school, collaborative/mixed-use offices ala the Well or another kind of social gathering space. You can certainly incorporate something tall, which is what the private landowners will want, but it is up to the CITY to ensure whatever goes there is built around some kind of cultural institution. I will report back at some point with a more refined idea, but you are right that if it just becomes condos, we run the risk of creating our very own sterile 'new' condo quarter akin to CityPlace or Toronto's Waterfront in general. We do not have a downtown in place to leverage that kind of mistake, as this area is to be part of that rejuvenated downtown once more. It cannot be that if it is *just* another condo. And a park can be part of the site, too, I just don't see it really being practical to turn the entire thing into one.

That aside, the towers themselves are more than appropriate (that north of the site in question). Really, some height variety is good for our blocks that will just see 30-storey towers otherwise, but we all know that and I don't want to sound like a broken record. If that proposal is well thought-out, then the city's hands ought to be tied when it comes to asking for a reduction. The Jackson proposal appears to be the test this time around.

[Chronamut]

From looking at their secondary plan - they appear to be looking for a sort of a "cross" downtown pattern, on two major streets and everything else petering down from this - the problem is there is not really a PEAK anywhere so its like shearing the top off of the pyramidal cross.

As we all know I am not a huge fan of height for the sake of height, esp if the design is crappy, but it doesn't mean I am not a fan of height PERIOD, but in this case it should be making a statement RIGHT in the downtown core. For instance imo the city center condos should be much MUCH higher and more interesting as being one of the most important locations in the entire city.

but yes I suppose it could go either way - having a smaller building or institution to really sell this block, or to have a building far taller than the other condos around it to give more of that pyramid of towers feel. And yeah it needs to be something to actually do and not just a place to cram more people into. I still worry that so many new people with not much to do is going to bring a lot of bad behaviour into the downtown..

I personally just hate the eternal shade feeling Toronto has where they literally have subdivisions of giant condo towers. Also makes it feel like it takes forever to get anywhere.

But we'll see.. just like the old Zellers lot we may never get anything here built in our lifetime... maybe zellers can rebuy that lot and put whatever they've rebranded themselves as back there lol..

[SteelTown]

Owners of the historic Tivoli Theatre are 'doing demolition by neglect,' Hamilton
The historic theatre, in a state of disrepair for decades, got new owners last year

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...acks-1.6975417

Architect Bill Curran is warning the city and neighbours of Hamilton's historic Tivoli Theatre – the dilapidated site of a long-promised redevelopment – about apparent structural issues with the building's walls, including buckling bricks and a lengthy crack.

"I'm worried [that] anyone who parks back there will get a pile of bricks landing on their head one day," said Curran, one of the owners of a building next to the Tivoli on James Street North.

On Sept. 11, Curran issued a warning to the building tenants who park in the lot adjacent to the old theatre's north wall, the same day he notified City of Hamilton building safety officials of what he described as "a significant structural concern." CBC Hamilton is also a tenant in that building.

"I think that I see displacement of the top six to eight inches… of the exterior brickwork at the corner, bowing outward," he wrote. "As you know, architects have a duty to report code issues that we become aware of."

Bob Nuttall, the city's manager of building inspections, says his team followed up on the complaint with an exterior inspection the day after it was received.

"The building division found no imminent concerns of failure, but will continue to work with the city's bylaw enforcement team to ensure the building is in a safe condition, and does not present a hazard to the building occupants, or the public, and conformance to the Property Standards Bylaw," he wrote in a statement emailed to CBC Hamilton last week.

Bylaw officer has 'noted violations' at the site

This past week, a municipal licensing and enforcement officer visited the building and "noted violations," according to a brief statement from Monica Ciriello, director of bylaw and licensing services, emailed to CBC on Thursday.

"The matter remains under investigation at this time and more details will be released once charges are finalized," it said.

In the meantime, Curran has warned his building's occupants not to park within 30 feet of the Tivoli, later telling CBC Hamilton that the long cracks, which run above and beside the theatre's bricks in the shape of a staircase, are called "ladder cracks… What it means is the wall is falling apart.

"The corner of the building could collapse and if it does, that's the end of the building… They're doing demolition by neglect."

The company that owns the Tivoli, Aventus Development, disputes this, saying the site has been monitored by a structural engineer and was deemed safe in its most recent assessment.

"We have not heard any of these concerns being raised to us," said Edward John, the city's former director of housing, who is now the director of development at Aventus.

He said that, as of Wednesday, the city had not contacted the company with any orders. "We do know some of those areas that have been pointed out. We're keeping an eye on it and may address those before the snow flies to ensure the pointing and mortar is fine and no falling debris."

blah blah blah

John says Aventus is planning to build two 35 to 40-storey towers above a two-storey podium, a development that will include the Tivoli property and the neighbouring Wilson Street commercial plaza. He expects a design will be ready for public feedback near the end of this year.

Once that feedback is gathered, Aventus can submit for an official plan amendment and rezoning, something John is hoping to start early next year.

[craftbeerdad]

I wish you could sue for neglect or put people in jail for some amount of time because when this gets knocked over, it could have been prevented. For that crime, it should be punishable. Instead we will get some junk new build with zero historical asset.

[ScreamingViking]

A couple of images below from that CBC story

Curran has a bit of a reputation for being "difficult", but that second pic looks pretty scary to me (to my untrained unlicensed eyes). And I would wager there are people living inside -- if something does give way, they'll have little chance.

[matt602]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

A couple of images below from that CBC story

And I would wager there are people living inside -- if something does give way, they'll have little chance.

That corner of the building is right where the projection room and offices were and when I went in there over a decade ago, there was signs that someone was living in one of those offices so yeah... you're probably right.

[Chronamut]

Any updates on this one?